Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 251

Mon, 19 Dec 2011

• 1. 10 tefachim (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: OU bitul policy (David Cohen)
• 3. The Origins of the Non-Jewish Custom Of 'Shlissel Challah' (Key Bread) ?The Loaf of Idolatry?? (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: The Origins of the Non-Jewish Custom Of 'Shlissel Challah' (Key Bread) ?The Loaf of Idolatry?? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: The Origins of the Non- Jewish Custom Of 'Shlissel Challah' (Key Bread) ?The Loaf of Idolatry?? (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: The Origins of the Non- Jewish Custom Of 'Shlissel Challah' (Key Bread) ?The Loaf of Idolatry?? (Saul Guberman)
• 7. Re: Loshon Hora (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: Loshon Hora (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: The Origins of the Non-Jewish Custom Of 'Shlissel Challah' (Key Bread) "The Loaf of Idolatry?" (Ben Waxman)
• 10. Re: Loshon Hora (Zev Sero)
• 11. Mars Bars in the UK (martin brody)
• 12. evolution - new creatures coming into existence 7 days of creation (Zvi Lampel)
• 13. Re: evolution - new creatures coming into existence 7 days of creation (Micha Berger)
• 14. L'Chatchilla etc. (martin brody)
• 15. Re: Forms of Bitul (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: 10 tefachim (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Haneiros Halallu - Important note (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Mars Bars in the UK (Chana Luntz)
• 19. Re: Haneiros Halallu - Important note (kennethgmil...@juno.com)

What is the reason that the chanukah candles should ideally be below 10
tefachim.
One would imagine that the best view is at eye level, some 15-20 tefachim
especially since the gemara is not clear about the conclusion.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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It occurred to me that there could be a parallel between this whole
discussion of bitul lechatechila / certification vs. approval and today's
daf yomi (the first mishna on Bechoros 35a and the gemara thereon).

The mishna states that if a NJ makes a mum on a bechor "ledaato" (of the
J), then the bechor may not be slaughtered on the basis of that mum.  But
if the NJ does it "shelo ledaato," then the bechor may be slaughtered on
that basis.  If one were to attempt to draw conclusions regarding the scope
of the prohibition on "bitul isur lechatchila" based on this mishna, one
might conclude that:
   -- according to Rabbeinu Gershom, who says that "ledaato" means at the
explicit instruction of the J, there might be a problem with "certifying"
products with trace amounts of isur, but certainly no problem "approving"
them.
   -- according to Rashi, who says that "leda'as" (his girsa) means that
the NJ is intentionally acting in order to permit that which was forbidden,
there might be a problem even with "approving" such products, if the NJ
manufacturers were aware that they could use up to a certain amount of isur
and still stay on the "approved" list, and tailored their recipe
accordingly.
  -- according to all, there would be no problem "approving" such a product
if appearing on the "approved" list was not at all a consideration of the
NJ manufacturers when they made their recipe.

Are there any rishonim or acharonim who make this connection between this
mishna on heter bechoros and the question of bitul of isurim by NJ?

-- D.C.
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See http://www.alfassa.com/bread.html  and the download there.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:58:23AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> See http://www.alfassa.com/bread.html  and the download there.

Do you celebrate Carnivale on the 15th of Adar? Or did your children
not wear costumes?

How about Wittmontag on the 6th and 7th of Sivan? We came up for clever
excuses to ignore the derabbanan of eating fleishig on yom tov, but you
think it's a coincidence?

Shlissel-challah was old in the days of R' AY Heschel, the Apter Rav. So
it significantly predates his birth of 1748. At what point do we say a
practice was substantiated by beis Yisrael despite its origin?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

At 11:26 AM 12/19/2011, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:58:23AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> > See http://www.alfassa.com/bread.html  and the download there.
>
>Do you celebrate Carnivale on the 15th of Adar? Or did your children
>not wear costumes?
>
>How about Wittmontag on the 6th and 7th of Sivan? We came up for clever
>excuses to ignore the derabbanan of eating fleishig on yom tov, but you
>think it's a coincidence?
>
>Shlissel-challah was old in the days of R' AY Heschel, the Apter Rav. So
>it significantly predates his birth of 1748. At what point do we say a
>practice was substantiated by beis Yisrael despite its origin?

I must admit that you have lost me in much of what you wrote.   My 
search for Carnivale comes up with http://tinyurl.com/7rd9yvg >:-}

I do eat fleishigs on Shavuous.  When I come home after davening 
k"Vo'Sikin, I eat milchigs.  Later we eat fleishigs.

To the best of my knowledge Shlissel Challah was something that was 
not done by non-Chassidic Jews until Yahadus became Chassidized.  I 
certainly never have had anything to do with it.  I am sure that it 
was not practices by RSRH's wife.

YL
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>  At 11:26 AM 12/19/2011, Micha Berger wrote:
>
> Do you celebrate Carnivale on the 15th of Adar? Or did your children
> not wear costumes?
>
>

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:47, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
>
> I must admit that you have lost me in much of what you wrote.
>
>     [ nipped]


> To the best of my knowledge Shlissel Challah was something that was not
> done by non-Chassidic Jews until Yahadus became Chassidized.  I certainly
> never have had anything to do with it.  I am sure that it was not practices
> by RSRH's wife.
>
> YL
>

Are Frankfurt Jews the only ones allowed to create minhagim?

RMB's reference above was to the origin of costumes for Purim.  There is a
case to be made that it was borrowed from carnivale.

Saul
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And had they not spoken, perhaps Am Yisrael could have been created 
without all the suffering.

Ben

On 12/19/2011 1:28 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>
>
> However, it was because of this Loshon Hora that Yaakov and his family 
> went down to Mitzraim and, as a result, the Jewish nation was 
> created.  So this Loshon Hora brought about the most important 
> development in history -  the creation of the Jewish people!
>
> Are we to surmise from this that Loshon Hora can have positive 
> benefits as well?  YL 

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 07:39:13PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> And had they not spoken, perhaps Am Yisrael could have been created  
> without all the suffering.

I had thought something similar, but WRT another clash.

The 400 years in Avraham's nevu'ah begins with the first event in the
nevu'ah, Yitzchaq's birth (c.f. Ramban Shamos 12:40), rather than the
begining of the actual step in discussion, the shi'abud in Mitzrayim. IOW,
I would read "va'avadum ve'inu osam, 400 shanah" not as "... for 400
years" but "until the 400th year [of this nevu'ah."

Note that this makes it concurrent with the start Sarah's oppression
of Hagar, a Mitzri princess. Now, while HQBH tells Avraham that this
oppression is necessary or justified, it is still interesting that in
a sense, Mitzrayim begins when we [are forced to] oppress a Mitzri. Had
this not been necessary, perhaps the whole process of building BY would
have been much pleasanter.

Another example:

It took 40 years in the midbar to forge BY. 40 years is very symbolic
number -- it took 10 maamaros x 4 aspects to create the world (which
is why there are "40 chaser 1" melakhos or malkos), 40 days of rain
to rebirth the world, 40 se'ah of water in a miqvah (also rebirth),
40 days before the soul enters the fetus, etc...

But had the miraglim not given their report, perhaps the birth of
Israel would have taken only the 40 days of their travels. The
symbology doesn't mean the Meraglim's sin was appropriate.

And a far bigger example:

Because Chavah and Adam ate from the eitz hadaas, we now have a yeitzer
hara, yeitzer hatov, a split existence between olam hazeh and olam haba,
etc... The entire concept of what it means to be a person would have been
different. Should be say "and therefore something positive came out of
the cheit, it wasn't so bad after all"?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

On 12/19/2011 7:31 PM, Saul Guberman wrote:
> Are Frankfurt Jews the only ones allowed to create minhagim?

> RMB's reference above was to the origin of costumes for Purim.  There 
> is a case to be made that it was borrowed from carnivale.

And like I've asked before, where does this demand that Yahadut remain 
"in place" come from anyway?

Ben

On 19/12/2011 6:28 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>  From today's Hakhel email Bulletin.
>
>> *VERY IMPORTANT OBSERVATION: *We had received the following from Rabbi Moshe Goldberger, Shlita, relating to this past week?s Parsha:
>>
>> ?Yosef brought bad reports to Father. The Medrash says we learn to
>> avoid Loshon Hora. What were the costs of those words? Yosef was
>> in prison for 12 years. His father who had listened suffered for
>> 22 years. Words can be very costly!?
>
> However, it was because of this Loshon Hora that Yaakov and his family
> went down to Mitzraim and, as a result, the Jewish nation was created.
> So this Loshon Hora brought about the most important development in
> history - the creation of the Jewish people!
>
> Are we to surmise from this that Loshon Hora can have positive benefits as well? YL

Everything that happens has positive results in the long run, or else
it would never happen.  Kol ma de`avad Rachmana letav `avad, after all.
But that doesn't mean the event itself isn't negative, and it doesn't
absolve those who do wrong things from suffering the consequences.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

" (unlike in the UK, where the
Jewish market is sufficiently small that Mars is highly unlikely to change
its policy just because of the Jews)
Chana"

Not so fast. Mars and many of its products in its line did in fact change
their formulae and they are certified kosher with the KLBD D logo.

-- 
Martin Brody
310 474 1856
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 >.. In Gan Eden there were no such creatures as flies, mosquitoes or 
fleas and other insects that breed in swamps. Only after Adam HaReshon 
was expelled from Gan Eden did he and subsequently, all of mankind 
suffer from this pestilence, which was caused by the tumah of Adam 
HaReshon's sin I am unfamiliar with this midrash - I thought that all 
creatures that exist were understood to have been created during 7 days 
of creation only. has anyone heard this midrash before?<

Since Adam's expulsion from Gan Eden was during the 6th day, there is no 
problem with the principle cited.

Zvi Lampel

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 01:29:44PM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> Since Adam's expulsion from Gan Eden was during the 6th day, there is no  
> problem with the principle cited.

Weren't the flying insects fixed "lemineihem" the day before (Bereishis
1:21)?

BTW, there is a medrashic line which has Adam eating the esrog of the
eitz hadaas on the future date of Sukkos. Then, as the moon started
shrinking, Adam thought that his expulsion was being followed up by a
slow disentegration of the universe. Thus leading to a very joyous Rosh
Chodesh, when he first saw the moon reborn. It nicely ties in Sukkos
with the eitz hadaas, as well as explaining Yom Kippur Qatan.

While I do not recall where I saw it, Eruvin 18b and AZ 8a also imply
a much later date. They have Adam undertaking 47 days of teshuvah until
the winter solstice and days started getting longer. That would put the
cheit some time in mid-Marcheshvan or so!

(Which might even be 7.5 mo after Adam's creation, if beNisan nivra
ha'olam.)

This notion that everything happened on day 6 is subject to a machloqes,
and R Yochanan ben Chanina's (Sanhedrin 38b) isn't the only shitah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are where your thoughts are.
mi...@aishdas.org                - Ramban, Igeres Hakodesh, Ch. 5
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Follow up to your previous comments on certification.

So, now Mr. Gentile has a kosher kitchen, he decides he'd like to market
his super duper fruit juice mix.
Ingredients, pear juice, pineapple juice, guava juice, passion fruit juice,
apple juice, blueberry juice, grape juice.
( I chose 7 deliberately.Ingredients, by law, are listed in order of
volume.In this example the maximum the volume of the grape juice could be
is 14.28%, less than shisha.)
The product is kosher to all except those that follow the Rashba, not
normative halacha, or those that reject bitul based on something that I
have no idea about.

Now, play certifying kashrut agency for a minute, would you give  your
hecksher to it, and if not why not?

Thanks
Martin Brody
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On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:58pm GMT, Rn Chana Luntz wrote:
:>: See this is where I disagree.  I think you need to distinguish the case of
:>: the three pieces of meat and the genuine mixture case, by which I mean eg
:>: the classic case of a drop of milk falling into a meat stew.  In the latter
:>: case, it seems to me it is nothing to do with probabilities, it has to do
:>: with the drop of milk being completely overwhelmed by the meat stew and
:>: thereby disappearing from existence, with its identity and particularly its
:>: taste disappearing...

: And RMB replied:
:> So, if you bring the milk back up to the top, visible be'ein, it can
:> still be eaten with the rest of the chulent?

: No, because if it is visible then the visible bit needs to be removed and if
: it is taste able then if a non Jew would be able to taste it and any part
: that has the taste of milk is assur because of ta'am k'ikar...

So, you're backing off of the notion that the milk was "completely
overwhelmed by the meat stew and thereby disappearing from
existence"? Becuase if so, then the stuff the centrifuge brought to the
top isn't actually "milk", from a halachic perspective.

I would think that is that since rov is described by the SA as being
mevatel beta'aroves, Rashi considers the word for dough (a case of
mixture) to be a term for safeiq, bitul betaaroves and besafeiq come
from the same pasuq, etc... there is no reason to think one is more
"real" than the other. Just as a mi'ut in a mixture loses its identity,
a mi'ut probability loses its identity.

And the notion that probabilities can recombine according to most shitos
in at least some situations doesn't prove a thing one way or the other,
if you're willing to say you can undo bitul betaaroves as well. This is
tangential to my main point, but what we're discussing here.

Similarly, even WRT taaroves, if we're talking about carrying a taaroves
that has a mi'ut tamei, it's like eating all 3 pieces of fat at once --
there is no bitul. It's only touching the mixture or eating one bite at
a time where we have bitul in a taaroves.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 05:51:13PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: What is the reason that the chanukah candles should ideally be below 10
: tefachim.

The gemara says it's so that you would see the light, but not have it at
a functional height.

The Rama Pasqens (DM #675) that therefore one should not move a menorah
for the same reason -- it will look like you have a lamp for use, not
the mitzvah. Based on this, the Sheivet haKehasi (3:202) pasqens that
one *may* move the menorah if it is to lower it below 10 tefachim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 09:50:44AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
>         A copy of the published nusach of the prayer consisting of  
> exactly 36 words, which is found in the Siddur Rashban, is available at 
> the following link:
> <http://tinyurl.com/33uv5d>

The Rashban, R' Shelomo Tzevi Schick (1844-1961) was the rav of Karcag,
Hungary. Close to minhag Ashkenaz, but not quite the same thing. I find
you promoting this nusach for numerological reasons somewhat startling,
given prior posts.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

[Please don't use "RMB" -- there are three of us now posting with any
regularity. -micha]

I wrote:
> " (unlike in the UK, where the
> Jewish market is sufficiently small that Mars is highly unlikely to
> change its policy just because of the Jews)

And [R Martin Brody] replied:
> Not so fast. Mars and many of its products in its line did in fact
> change their formulae and they are certified kosher with the KLBD D
> logo.

That isn't the way I understand it. What happened was that the vegetarians
who do have real power in the UK jumped up and down and made it impossible
for Mars to produce products that were in any way animal sourced (or
by-products of rennet that was animal sourced etc).  At which point, Mars
decided, well if we are going to have to have products that satisfy the
vegetarians, we might as well get a full fledged KLBD hecsher as well.  Ie
the chronology was this - 2007 Mars decided that it was going to switch to
using whey produced using animal rennet (presumably for economic reasons).
The vegetarians jumped up and down and got Mars to reverse this policy.
2009 Mars gets an KLBD hecsher, after negotiating for two years.  Had there
been no vegetarians to be concerned about, I am convinced that Mars would
never have moved to merely accommodate the Jews. 
 
> --
> Martin Brody
> 310 474 1856

Regards

Chana

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> The Magen Avraham (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 676, seif katan
> 2) writes that one recites 36 words in Haneiros Halallu
> (corresponding to the 36 neiros, excluding the shamesh, lit on
> Chanukah).  In most editions of the Siddur that we know of, the
> Nusach contains more than 36 words.  A copy of the published
> nusach of the prayer consisting of exactly 36 words, which is
> found in the Siddur Rashban, is available at the following link:
> http://tinyurl.com/33uv5d

In the snippet that RAL linked to, the paragraph is titled "Haneros
Halalu", and it refers to "36 words in Haneros Halalu". Yet when the actual
text to be recited is given, both occurences of that phrase clearly appear
as "Neros Halalu", without the initial Heh. I find this curious for some
reason.

I also note that the author there points out that in order to reach the
exact count of 36, one must not count the first two words. In other words,
one must not count the first "Neros Halalu", but the second "Neros Halalu"
must be included.

Machtzis Hashekel 676:3 and Kaf Hachayim 676:28 both say that Haneros
Halalu contains exactly 36 words excluding *both* occurrences of the phrase
"Haneros Halalu". They - and also the Rosh on Gemara Shabbos 2:10 (as
explained by Elia Rabbah 676:8) - give the following as the exact text:  (I
have added punctuation and word count on my own.)

1-6    Haneros halalu anu madlikin al hateshuos v'al hanisim
7-13   v'al haniflaos she'asiSa laavoseinu al y'dei kohaneCha
14-18  hakedoshim. V'chol shmonas y'mei Chanuka haneros halalu
19-26  kodesh, v'ain lanu reshus l'hishtamesh bahen ela lirosan
27-33  bilvad, k'dei l'hodos l'ShimCha al niflaoseCha v'al
34-36  niseCha v'al y'shuoseCha.

The above text also appears in Siddur Avodas Yisroel (Baer-Roesdelheim) with minor grammatical differences.

It is found *almost* verbatim in Tur 676 (he adds the word "hen" near the
middle) and Aruch Hashulchan 676:8 (he adds the word "hem" and makes minor
grammatical changes). Hagahos Maimonios Chanuka 3:2 has changes in both
grammar and vocabulary, but has exactly 36 words if we exclude the "Haneros
halalu" at the beginning and the "haneros ha'aylu" in the middle.

The 36-word count is mentioned in Taz 676:5, Magen Avraham 676:3, Baer
Hetev 676:3, Mishna Brura 676:8, Shaar Hatziyun 676:13, Eliah Rabbah 676:8,
and the Ben Ish Chai Hilchot Chanukah siman 1.

(This disparity between the poskim and the siddurim has long been a pet
peeve of mine. I thought I had posted these notes to Avodah in previous
years, but (via Google) I was only able to find passing references. That's
why I chose this occasion to post those notes in length.)

Akiva Miller


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