Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 250

Mon, 19 Dec 2011

• 1. Re: Cellphones and Driving: A Halachik Perspective by R. Yose f Kanefsky (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 2. Bittul LeChatChila and BeDiAvad (Meir Rabi)
• 3. pure olive all (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: OU bitul policy (Chana Luntz)
• 5. Re: Halachic Policy Guidelines of the Kashrus Authority of Australia (Chana Luntz)
• 6. Water during a drought (Liron Kopinsky)
• 7. mumar by r. steinmetz and mekoros (Harvey Benton)
• 8. Re: Water during a drought (Zev Sero)
• 9. Singular Kaddish = Incessant Bickering? Time For Another Look (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: Singular Kaddish = Incessant Bickering? Time For Another Look (Dov Weinstock)
• 11. Loshon Hora (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Loshon Hora (Rich, Joel)
• 13. evolution - new creatures coming into existence 7 days of creation (M Cohen)
• 14. Haneiros Halallu - Important note (Prof. Levine)

(This post cites no halachik sources, and might be better suited for
Areivim. But this thread is about pikuach nefesh, and I hope that the
moderator will let it though. Thanks.)

R' Zev Sero asked:

> What makes you think that a few studies from a handful of people
> who are highly nogeia badavar is "playing the odds"?  What makes
> you think they turn out to be wrong in only a minority of cases?

Several years ago, I spoke to my children - who were already driving and
with phones of their own - about using the cell phone while driving. I did
not cite any statistics, nor lecture down to them. I merely commented on my
own personal experiences, which I'll now share with the chevrah. Whether
this is enough to warrant a halachic injunction is something I will not
comment on.

I said to them, "I'm trying to cut back on using my phone while driving,
but I'll admit that I do it occasionally. I've noticed that whenever I
finish a call while I'm driving, the first thing I do after hanging up is
to ask myself, 'Okay, where am I?'"

Most nodded their heads in agreement, but one blurted, "Oh my G-d! Me too! Exactly!"

My point is that I don't need any experts to tell me how distracted one can get. The "Where am I?" experience is truly frightening.

(On the other hand, truth be told, I get to similar levels of distraction
in a conversation with people who are actually in the car with me. But
that's an argument against such conversations, and should not be twisted
into arguing in favor of cell phone use.)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
60-Year-Old Mom Looks 27
Mom Reveals Free Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4eed6ef0c0080ba20f0st04vuc

I think that this following message posted on Avoda requires some
adjustment:
"if the goy is seeking our certification before he manufactures the
product, then he is making it for our benefit, and giving him the OK to mix
it is the same as mixing it ourselves. Whereas if he is making it for his
own purposes, and is merely doing us a favour by disclosing to us after the
event what he put in it, then it's bediavad."

I am fairly sure that Reb Moshe proves that a Goy who of his own
initiative, wishes to make for his J neighbour, some fruit stew in his
non-K kitchen with his non-K pots and utensils, and the G calls in a Rabbi
to provide assurance to the J neighbour that the food contains no non-K
stuff; there is no problem with the food and there is no problem with the
rabbi being in attendance. The G may cook in his regular pots without
Kashering them first. Reb Moshe applies this to the situation of first
Kashering a manufacturing plant that wishes to make Kosher margarine.

Now the G makes fantastic fruit stew and since it is not only K but
delicious and cheap; the Yiddel decides to order some for the upcoming
Bar-Mitzvah of his son. This is not permitted. This is LeChatChila. If he
did order it, it may not be eaten, neither by he who instructed it be made,
nor by those who were the intended beneficiaries. However, it is Kosher and
therefore it may be brought to Shule for all other Kosher conacious Yidden
to partake and enjoy.

Accordingly, any company that wishes to provide Kosher accreditation to its
present production can employ a rabbi to provide that certification.
However, if Fishel's Fantastic Kosher wishes to contract for the
manufacturing of the identical product but under the Fishel label, then we
must Kasher the machinery.
-- 

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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<< To tell the truth, I don't use olive oil; I use regular canola oil, which
works just as well at a fraction of the price... >>

Rav Elyashiv says that the closer it is to the oil uses in the Bet
Hamikdash the better.
I havent quite understood that. For the chanukiyah we are not allowed to
use something too close to the menorah of the bet hamikdash.
Why should it make a difference whether the oil is eatable?
I spoke with our local mashgiach and he claims that all the pre-loaded
glasses of olive oil come with a lower grade of olive oil.
He also mentioned that in the past they have had problems with bugs in
olive oil for food.


-- 
Eli Turkel
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> On 15/12/2011 4:16 PM, martin brody wrote:
> > If it is already in there, it's Bdievad (however that's spelled!)

And RZS replied

> No, it isn't.  That's the difference between the "approved" and
> "certified" models.  If the goy is seeking our certification before
> he manufactures the product, then he is making it for our benefit,
> and giving him the OK to mix it is the same as mixing it ourselves.
> Whereas if he is making it for his own purposes, and is merely doing
> us a favour by disclosing to us after the event what he put in it,
> then it's bediavad.

That indeed appears to be the argument of the Halachic Authority of
Australia, and presumably the OU. However, the logic of it is not exactly
compelling.

Let us suppose that Mars Bars were made in the US.  Despite the economic
clout of Jews in the US, which might cause the manufacturer to seek to
obtain a hechsher, it is not as though rov of the people eating Mars Bars,
or even anywhere near that number are Jews (and certainly not frum Jews
seeking a hechsher).  So while the manufacturer might well, if pushed to do
so by the hechsher granting authority, seek out whey that was a by product
of cheese produced with vegetarian rennet (unlike in the UK, where the
Jewish market is sufficiently small that Mars is highly unlikely to change
its policy just because of the Jews), without such a push, and of its own
accord, it would seem logical that it would seek out whey that was most
easily and cheaply available, regardless of the kind of rennet used, in
order to maximise profit.  I do struggle to see how that can be construed as
"mixing it for our benefit" and even more to equate it as "the same as
mixing it ourselves".  The non Jewish manufacturer would seem rather to be
doing it for its own benefit, although it might be willing to forgo that
benefit if offered what it believes is the greater benefit of a hechsher.

In Israel, where presumably the majority of consumers are Jews or frum Jews,
the argument is somewhat stronger, because the majority of people who would
benefit from any lower prices of the item generated by finding the cheapest
and most available source of whey are going to be Jewish.  But even there,
that is assuming that the benefit, what there is of it, that is generated by
not being fussy as to the whey utilised, is passed directly on to the
consumer, and not absorbed by the non Jewish manufacturer.  If on the other
hand the non Jewish manufacturer will charge as much as it believes the
market will bear, then unless margins are exceptionally fine on such items,
or the cost of switching is highly significant, it is still possible that
most if not all of such benefit will be absorbed as profit, being solely to
the benefit of the manufacturer.  And even if only some of the benefit will
be absorbed as profit, or recaptured by the manufacturer by more sales of
the cheaper product, then surely the manufacturer is still doing it for its
own benefit, and the fact that consumers may also benefit by paying less for
the product is incidental (is ze nehene v'ze nehene mean that the person
doing the act is doing it "for the benefit" of the second one who also
benefits).  (Of course in Israel, it is hard to believe that whey from non
vegetarian sources is readily available, given the pressures on the cheese
makers to produce kosher cheese.  The ready availability of whey linked to
non kosher rennet is thus most likely linked to a society where the majority
of consumers do not care about such things).

> --
> Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful

Regards

Chana

I wrote:
> What are the key aspects of the approval:
> 
> -  "The primary ingredients in plain black coffee (water, sugar and
> unflavored coffee) are all group 1, acceptable from any source."   Note
> of
> course that they cannot guarantee that any drive-by store will in fact
> be
> using only these ingredients.  Who knows what some devious disgruntled
> McDonalds burger flipper might decided to stick into the coffee for a
> laugh.

And RJR replied:

> Which can happen even if there is supervision. 

Which I noted, albeit that it is harder - if you have a meaty restaurant and
a machgiach temidi, then presumably nothing in the entire premises will be
either not kosher or dairy, making "opportunistic" treifing (in parallel
with opportunistic burglary, were people take because something is left in
full view, or a window is open or the like) difficult.  Planned treifing
(like planned burglary) is difficult to eliminate in any case.

 The whole Starbucks
> tempest in a coffee pot issue relates to the same type of analysis.
> The offshoot question - is there timtum haleiv if the flipper does it
> and you drink it? May be what imho separates the kabbalists from the
> rationalists

I don't know if it separates the kabbalists from the rationalists, but it is
certainly separates us with our current wealth from our forebears.  It is
clear that our forebears did not have the economic luxury of ignoring the
heterim provided by bitul, timtum haleiv or no.  On the other hand we have
the economic wealth to allow us to chase every rabbit down its hole and
throw out after every accident.  Thus, it would seem, we must clearly have
hearts that are so much more tahor than those of our fathers, having avoided
so much more timtum haleiv.  Unless of course you say that the whole
obsession itself creates a form of tumah on the heart greater than that of
nullified foodstuffs, in the form of yehora or other problematic midos.

> 
> KT
> Joel Rich

Regards

Chana

Ber 43:24
 ???????? ??????? ???-???????????, ??????? ??????; ?????????-?????
???????????? ??????????, ????????? ????????? ????????????.*24* And the man
brought the men into Joseph's house, and gave them water, and they washed
their feet; and he gave their asses provender.

Does anyone comment on the use of water here to wash their feet during the
drought? I don't see anything in the Mikraot Gedolot I have here.

Kol Tuv,
-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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how do we define a mumar nowadays??                                             
are they or should they be put in cherem?                                       
what would the rambam say about them

[Email #2. -micha]

These rules relate to specific objects acquired in disreputable ways, and
whether they can be used as sacred objects. However, there is a second
issue: accepting money from a "mumar", a habitual sinner. The Talmud
states that we do not accept sacrifices from a "mumar" (Hullin 5b). (The
definition of a "mumar" in this context is complex. Some say it refers
to fundamentally immoral people who reject any sort of moral authority,
while others say it includes any habitual sinner. See Yabiah Omer 1:YD 11)
It may be that the "mumar" is excluded from giving a sacrifice because we
assume he is doing this for ulterior motives (see Orchot Chaim II page
442) or because we view the money of a "mumar" to be tainted (see Sefer
Chasidim no. 938; cf. no. 687) Some apply this rule to include all types
of charity, and say that we must always refuse the money of a "mumar"
(Rama, OH 154:1; YD 254:2). Others distinguish between ritual objects,
such as items used in a synagogue, which because of their inherent
holiness cannot be donated by a "mumar", and charity that is distributed
to the poor, which can be donated by a "mumar"(see Chatam Sofer, comment
to Magen Avraham OH 154:18). Others limit this rule to sacrifices,
and allow a "mumar" to give any type of charity (Shach YD 254:5; Magen
Avraham OH 154:18). Indeed, some argue that charity should be accepted
from all types of people, because it is importa?
?
hmz

On 18/12/2011 11:21 AM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> Ber 43:24
>   ???????? ??????? ???-???????????, ??????? ??????; ?????????-?????
>   ???????????? ??????????, ????????? ????????? ????????????.     *24*
>   And the man brought the men into Joseph's house, and gave them
>   water, and they washed their feet; and he gave their asses
>   provender.
>
>
> Does anyone comment on the use of water here to wash their feet during the drought? I don't see anything in the Mikraot Gedolot I have here.

The pesukim don't say anything about a drought, just a famine.  What
caused it is not stated.  Egypt doesn't depend directly on rain anyway;
its water comes from the river, so even in a drought there would have been
no scarcity of water for washing, so long as there were servants to carry
it up from the river.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

 From http://bit.ly/tt5T2I

In previous posts 
(especially<http://treasuresofashkenaz.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/the-development-
of-%D7%A7%D7%93%D7%99%D7%A9-%D7%99%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%9D-part-ii-recent-develop
ments/> 
this one),  we have discussed the old minhog that only one person 
recites kaddish at a time, and how, in the modern era (circa the last 
two centuries), many congregations abandoned it, and adopted a 
different practice in which basically was 'deregulated', with 
preferences and limitations removed, under questionable 
circumstances. The posts engendered much attention and interest. This 
new, French revolution influenced, laissez-faire kaddish practice, 
was thought by some to be a panacea, offering great benefits, with 
little or no cost.

Time and experience, however, have shown us, that the new way was not 
an unalloyed boon, and has cost us dearly in terms of decline in 
quality of the kaddish experience. Essentially, we traded higher 
quality of kaddish recitation for higher quantity of same. Now that 
many decades and generations have passed, with the wisdom endowed by 
time and experience, it seems only logical and fair that we take a 
second look, and reassess the changes that were made. Were they 
really necessary? Should they be left in place? Or perhaps we should 
consider 
<http://treasuresofashkenaz.wordpress.com/2011/09
/13/reverting-vs-converting-the-halachic-basis-for-returning-to-lost-minhog
im-%D7%9C%D7%94%D7%97%D7%96%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%A2%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%9C%D7%
99%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%A0/>reverting, 
returning to the way of kaddish recitation of our 
ancestors,<http://treasuresofashkenaz.wordpress.com/2011/04/0
5/the-singular-way-of-saying-kaddish-how-to-make-kaddish-more-meaningful-po
werful-effective-and-historically-correct/> 
the singular kaddish.

See the above URL for the rest of this article. YL

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Other merits of the argument aside, I am astounded that the author thinks
of our current generation in terms of 'achshar dara' - that we have less
ignorance among the masses. Such an attitude counts only the frum,
yeshiva-educated community as members of the shul community. This speaks
volumes about the shul community. I think he needs to get out more.

Dov Weinstock
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 From today's Hakhel email Bulletin.

>VERY IMPORTANT OBSERVATION:  We had received the following from 
>Rabbi Moshe Goldberger, Shlita, relating to this past week's Parsha:
>
>"Yosef brought bad reports to Father.  The Medrash says we learn to 
>avoid Loshon Hora.  What were the costs of those words?  Yosef was 
>in prison for 12 years.  His father who had listened suffered for 22 
>years.  Words can be very costly!"

However, it was because of this Loshon Hora that Yaakov and his 
family went down to Mitzraim and, as a result, the Jewish nation was 
created.  So this Loshon Hora brought about the most important 
development in history -  the creation of the Jewish people!

Are we to surmise from this that Loshon Hora can have positive 
benefits as well?  YL
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However, it was because of this Loshon Hora that Yaakov and his family went
down to Mitzraim and, as a result, the Jewish nation was created.  So this
Loshon Hora brought about the most important development in history -  the
creation of the Jewish people!

Are we to surmise from this that Loshon Hora can have positive benefits as well?  YL
===================================
I'd surmise that HKB"H has many ways to get the result he needs, we are judged on our actions, not necessarily the results.
KT
Joel Rich
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http://littmann613.blogspot.com/2011/12/golden-menorah.html

 

.. In Gan Eden there were no such creatures as flies, mosquitoes or fleas
and other insects that breed in swamps. 

Only after Adam HaReshon was expelled from Gan Eden did he and subsequently,


all of mankind suffer from this pestilence, which was caused by the tumah of
Adam HaReshon's sin

 

I am unfamiliar with this midrash - I thought that all creatures that exist
were understood to have been created during 7 days of creation only.

 

has anyone heard this midrash before?

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The Magen Avraham (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 676, seif katan 2) 
writes that one recites 36 words in Haneiros Halallu (corresponding 
to the 36 neiros, excluding the shamesh, lit on Chanukah).  In most 
editions of the Siddur that we know of, the Nusach contains more than 
36 words.  A copy of the published nusach of the prayer consisting of 
exactly 36 words, which is found in the Siddur Rashban, is available 
at the following link:
<http://tinyurl.com/33uv5d>http://tinyurl.com/33uv5d


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