Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 204

Mon, 10 Oct 2011

• 1. Re: losing 'nishba' status (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Re: Yurt for a Sukkah (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 3. second day yomtov (Eli Turkel)
• 4. tefillin on second day yomtov (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: second day yom tov (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: tefillin on second day yomtov (Allan Engel)
• 7. Re: Some thoughts on a recent book "Knocking on Heaven's Door" (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: tefillin on second day yomtov (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Malachim and mistakes (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: Malachim and mistakes (Doron Beckerman)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] Palm Fronds Harder to Find for Sukkot - NYTimes.com (T613K@aol.com)
• 12. Question for Gerim or those who teach them (Chana Luntz)
• 13. Re: fasting/tfila/tshuva (T6...@aol.com)
• 14. Re: fasting/tfila/tshuva (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)

Please append this to the post I sent a few minutes ago:

I hope it is unnecessary to point out that I deeply respect Rav Moshe and I
am not trying to argue with him or disagree with him. All I'm trying to do
is to explain why I don't understand what he wrote, in the hopes that
someone - PLEASE! - can explain it to me.

Akiva Miller

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R"n Shoshana L. Boublil asked:

> A friend is going to be taking a course during Sukkot. The dwellings
> there are a dome and a yurt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yurt).
>
> They asked if they could use the yurt for a Sukkah, and if not -
> what would they have to do to make it kosher?

I was hoping that the answer might be as simple as "all they need to do is
lift the roof, and then - having in mind that it is to be a sukkah - put it
back in position".

Alas, I looked at the Wiki page you cited, which seems to say that a yurt -
by definition - has a roof made of felt. Further, it says that the felt
roof of traditional yurts is made of sheep's wool. There are many halachos
for sechach, and the most basic of them is that it must be made of
vegetation.

Maybe there is some way to make kosher sechach from cotton felt, but I don't even know if there is a way to make felt from cotton.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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> What I've heard is that it was 1 day in Eretz Yisrael, and that during the
time of the Gaonim, the people in Eretz Yisrael were pressured into changing
it.

<<Nope.  Why would they only have one day?  And if they were pressured, why
would it only be for RH and not the other YT?>>

Excuse me - the Baal Ha-Maor testifies that they kept only one day RH in EY
until his generation when the rabbis from Provence convinced them to change
Are you disagreeing with the Baal Hamaor?
See  Machloket Hamaor and Ramban on page gimel of the Rif in Beitzah

<< Would all those who received the message keep only one day of YomTov?>>

The original takanah was those in EY keep 1 day YomYov and those outside
keep 2 days.
This is based on the assumption that (at least in the days of the Bet
Hamikdash) those within EY would hear about the new moon by the 15th of the
month. Of course even then there were people in EY who for various reasons
were not in communication and so didnt know about. Nevertheless the gezera
was blanket and not dependent whether some individual heard or not.
The gemara actually has a case of someone who traveled from EY to Bavel and
knew the correct day

Part of the bebate is the definition of EY for this halacha. Rambam seems to
define it as where the messengers physically came in the old days.
While some achronim went with this le-chumra it is not the generally
accepted definition. How to define it is still debated - for example should
Eilat  keep one or 2 days of YomTov. There are a number of major poskim that
insist that people in Eilat keep 2 days. In practice I think the
overwhelming majority of people in Eilat both residents and Israeli guests
keep 1 day.

It is also unclear what the Jews in Alexandria during the Temple era did -
they were outside of EY
but not very far. I assume much less than a 15 day journey (in accouting for
shabbat etc).. In general the gemara which was written in Bavel has
relatively little about Alexandrian Jewry which was basically destroyed
shortly before the Bar Kochba revolt and so didn't exist in Amoraic times.
However, even in the Mishna the lights on the mountains to announce the new
month seemed directed towards Bavel and not Eygpt, of course there are few
mountains in the Sinai peninsula but alternatives are not discussed

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<I find it hard to believe that someone who owns an apartment in EY
which he uses for a month or two a year, even if he spends all of the
Yomim Tovim in EY,  is to conduct himself as an Israeli.  It seems to
me that he is an American tourist who happens to have a fixed place
to stay in EY whenever he goes to EY.>>

My feeling is that Israeli poskim (even including the Eda Hacharedit) tend
to be more mekil about considering a tourist as an Israeli for second day
yomtov if there is some evidence that links them to EY.
OTOH American poskim tend to be more machmir along the lines of Prof.
Levine. At one extreme is RYBS who paskened that an oleh should keep 2 days
(at least lechumra) since many Olim return after a year or two.
At the other end Rabbi Goren said that shleichim from EY to outside could
keep essentially 1 day (in private) since they will eventually return to EY
even if it takes several years.


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 8/10/2011 2:48 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>> <<Once again, we do *not* keep YTSh because it is minhag avoteinu.  We
>> keep it because the Sanhedrin told us "hachaziku minhag avoteichem
>> biydeichem".  So your question doesn't start.  The same chachamim who
>> told us to treat chicken as fleishig told us to continue our old
>> practices regarding YT.  Whatever it was we did when there was a real
>> safek, we should keep doing that. >>

> This the poisition of the chacham tzvi that travelers betwwen Y and
> chutz  la-aretz do what they would do in the old days. Hower, the SA
> doesnt  pasken that way and says that some from chutz who comes to EY
> for a visit keeps two days even though in the days of the bet hamikdash
> he would have kept 1 day

It's got *nothing to do* with the Chacham Tzvi.  It's an open gemara,
and therefore by definition lechol hade'os.  The ChTz's opinion is only
relevant to travellers.  What have they got to do with the topic?

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

I don't see that these are two extremes, it looks like they are saying
the very same thing.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:43 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
wrote:At one extreme is RYBS who paskened that an oleh should keep 2
days
> (at least lechumra) since many Olim return after a year or two.
> At the other end Rabbi Goren said that shleichim from EY to outside could
> keep essentially 1 day (in private) since they will eventually return to EY
> even if it takes several years.

R' Katz commented

 1. Keep up what good work?  The work of famous atheist writers like Hitchens and Dawkins?



 2. HOWEVER, it is a fool's mission to try to persuade someone like Lisa Randall of this.

 3. All of that leads her to imagine that she has some kind of special
 knowledge and insight into fields in which she is in fact entirely
 ignorant: theology, politics, history, economics, and scientific fields
 other than physics.  Her authority as a Harvard physicist and writer gives
 her standing to babble on about things she literally knows nothing about.

 4. In the Oct 3 issue of TIME magazine
  5. We religious Jews do not need to be overly impressed and we certainly
  don't need to be intimidated.  There are religious Jews who, unlike Lisa
  Randall, actually know science AND Torah.   Oh and political science and
  history and economics, too.
======================================================
1. The good work of  trying to make physics and science interesting and
understandable in a country that  is not graduating enough STEM majors to
even fill the shoes of those retiring, let alone any future growth.
2. I am only trying to convince her that the "tautology" she provided
(religion and science contradict) is not QED - she may not think (and I
don't think you can "prove" belief to anyone -listen here for a shiur from
R' OY Glickman - I wonder if anyone disagrees today http://download.yutorah.org/2011/2310/764672/Is%20Hilchot%20Teshuva%20a
%20Contradiction%20in%20Terms%20Thoughts%20on%20Law%20and%20Philosophy.MP3)
 it's the most likely explanation but I want to show it can't be
rejected out of hand
3. I can't speak for her but (hey we can agree on something) the end note
of her book mentions this and finance/probability (I borrowed it from the
NYPL so I don't remember exactly) as areas she wouldn't be comfortable
writing about without some others tutelage - one of those areas happens to
be something I work on professionally and I also thought it could have
stood some peer review.   {but just note that we make the same claim in a
way for gedolim - a few hours on medicine etc.}
4. will read -
5.Not at all intimidated, that's why I wrote her in the first place. If we
can't stand up to  those who disagree, it is a cause for concern (i.e. we
only convince the convinced because they know no better)
GT
Joel Rich
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At 04:43 AM 10/10/2011, Eli Turkel wrote:
>My feeling is that Israeli poskim (even including the Eda 
>Hacharedit) tend to be more mekil about considering a tourist as an 
>Israeli for second day yomtov if there is some evidence that links them to EY.
>OTOH American poskim tend to be more machmir along the lines of 
>Prof. Levine. At one extreme is RYBS who paskened that an oleh 
>should keep 2 days (at least lechumra) since many Olim return after 
>a year or two.
>At the other end Rabbi Goren said that shleichim from EY to outside 
>could keep essentially 1 day (in private) since they will eventually 
>return to EY even if it takes several years.

I was told that the Brisker Rov, Reb Velvel, held two days Yom Tov 
while living in Jerusalem because of sofek!  Can anyone verify this? YL
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At 09:18 AM 10/10/2011, you wrote:
>RYL says:
>?
> >> There is an attitude that one often hears today, "Everything is in
> >> the Torah."?  When I hear someone say this, I ask, "Where do you find
> >> the Pythagorean Theorem in the 
> Torah?"?  This is always met with silence <<
>?
>Funny you should bring that example up, and 
>right before Succos.?  The concept? ? can be 
>derived from? Tosafos Succah 8a s.v. kol amsa.

But when they assert that everything is in the 
Torah, they mean literally in the Torah itself.

I would be willing to wager that the Baalei 
Tosafos knew Greek mathematics and got the 
theorem from there. >:-}   Of course, I cannot prove this. YL


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RYL says:

>> There is an attitude that one often hears today, "Everything is in
>> the Torah."  When I hear someone say this, I ask, "Where do you find
>> the Pythagorean Theorem in the Torah?"  This is always met with silence
<<

Funny you should bring that example up, and right before Succos.  The
concept  can be derived from Tosafos Succah 8a s.v. kol amsa.
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In Areivim dated 10/10/2011 From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" _mgluck@gmail.com_ 
(mailto:mgl...@gmail.com) 


<http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/us/palm-fronds-harder-to-find-for
-sukkot.
html?_r=1&emc=tnt&tntemail1=y>

KT,

GCT,

MYG

 
>>>>>
 
There are shortages of lulavim this  year because of the situation in  
Egypt.  Quite a few people pre-paid for their lulovim and esrogim and then  my 
husband was hit with a price increase because of the shortage of lulavim this 
 year.  He wants to know if he can ask customers who paid already to now  
give him more when they come to pick up the sets they ordered.  (It's not  
like New York where there are thousands of customers and they can pick their 
own  sets from tables piled high -- there just isn't the volume that would 
allow  that, they have to be preordered and shipped from New York.)  The  
difference would be an extra five dollars per set -- which would not be  profit 
but just what it's costing him extra this year.  (Which does add up  and 
could be a distinct loss for him -- he has to pay his suppliers the  
difference.)
 

--Toby Katz
================




_____________________

 



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When somebody is becoming a ger, ie in the period between having decided to
pursue conversion, and the actual mila/tevila, is one encouraged/taught to:

a)      Not say brochos (while presumably being taught when to and what to
say in preparation for the occurrence of the conversion)?
b)      Say brochos without shem and malchus?
c)       Say brochos in their entirety (presumably mishum chinuch)?
                

Is a distinction made between  brochos over mitzvos and other forms of
brocha (ie nehnin, shevach)?  How about matters such as Kiddush and havdala?

Thanks

Chana
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From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
"

>> it is clear that the  chiyuv of YK is such that given the ability to 
either 
pray or fast [ ie one  will eg be reduced to spending the fast laying in 
bed], one must fast. while  clearly this is the chiyuv hayom,  what has the 
individual 
accomplished  when he has spent  the time conceivably incoherent, neither 
confessing  his sins , nor  inspired to tshuva. is somehow the koach of 
this inui  nefesh a replacement for tshuva? <<

 
>>>>>
 
Fasting on YK is a de'oraysah while the tefillos are derabbanan (mainly to  
replace the Avodah of YK which we no longer have).  Carrying out Hashem's  
will can only help.  
 
But in any case, unless a person is completely comatose, he is going to  
have moments of consciousness during which he can daven, even in bed, even if  
only in his own words, and tefilla from the heart is always acceptable.  If 
 he confesses his sins even in his own words, he has certainly done 
something  worthwhile.
 
You speak of a person who can only fast if he stays in bed but there is  
another category of person who may be fasting but who will not be able to go 
to  shul or to daven at all on YK and that is:  the mother of very young  
children, who may herself also be pregnant or nursing an infant in addition  to 
taking care of several little ones.  If she only manages to daven one  
sentence on YK -- something like, "Hashem please forgive all my wrongdoings and  
please help me get through this day!"  -- she has fulfilled her davening  
obligations (according to many poskim if not all).  This is actually a  
fairly common scenario, occurring some time in the life of the majority of  women.
 
These thoughts are prompted by the fact that I saw a pregnant young woman  
on erev Yom Kippur outside her house with her four adorable [ba'h] little  
children under the age of six who were playing on the lawn.  And I remember  
thinking that she was going to have a hard YK but also thinking that I envy 
her  and miss those sweet baby days when my children were not yet looking 
for  shidduchim!
 
May Hashem increase the number of Jewish children in the world and may He  
grant strength to their mothers to take care of them on Yom Kippur and every 
 day.
 

--Toby  Katz
================




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in regards to rTK's post  , moms at home,  if  men are  supposed to have 
10 vidui's  , how  many are women supposed to have? i assume  the same 
when in shul....but when at home?

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