Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 196

Sun, 02 Oct 2011

• 1. Re: Humanoids, Who Cares? What Difference Does it Make? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: R. Reisman's question (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: (no subject) (Micha Berger)
• 4. US Law and the 6 mitzvos bnei noach (Harvey Benton)
• 5. "Copying from Christian Thinkers" (Shalom Carmy)
• 6. tattoos and pictures (Harvey Benton)
• 7. Sources for "Lonely Man of Faith" (Richard Wolberg)
• 8. Kategor and Sanegor (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: "Copying from Christian Thinkers" (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 10. Re: Kategor and Sanegor (Lisa Liel)
• 11. Re: Kategor and Sanegor (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Kategor and Sanegor (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Kategor and Sanegor (Lisa Liel)
• 14. Some Thoughts and Questions About Yitzchak Meir Helfgot Selichot 2011 (Prof. Levine)
• 15. The Seder Avodah of Yom Kippur (T6...@aol.com)

On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 10:00:54AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 9/27/2011 7:48 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> I see RMR as asking what's really a compound question:

>> 1- Is the mode by which HQBH created Adam relevant to our lives? Does
>> it even qualify as aggadita, or is it a historical curiosity?

> Whose lives?

Let me rephase, then: Does it hold relevency beyond that which we give it?
As I further asked:

>> 2- Okay, people are curious, and so they'll explore the question. But
>> if the problem is thorny and might lead people religiously astray, is
>> the right approach to find an answer they may not find compelling, or
>> is it to point out that the question is (depending on the answer to #1)
>> either on the periphery to the religion or outside it altogether?

If the means of the creation of man has no inherent religious
significance, then we can choose to realize that fact rather than allow
the chase of what may be a will o the wisp shake our faith.

My own inclination is Kantian (or perhaps Machian), and as per REED,
that we only know the world-as-perceived, not the thing-in-itself. I
don't think that much of what we consider reality had meaning until
after the eitz hadaas. I needn't repeat the whole shpiel again. I'm
just pointing out that from where I sit, the question we're exploring
really doesn't have an answer we can fully fit in our heads. And as we
won't ever get the full answer, we can argue whether elephants are like
walls, snakes, spears trees fans or ropes, and none of us are entirely
right -- but also none entirely wrong. In some way we can't fathom,
both conflicting answers are true. See REED's take on the age of the
universe lefi haRamban, MmE 2, pg 152, amd the Gra (on the next page).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

In the spirit of the Gra, let me fill in one yad of secular knowledge
so that we can hopefully gain 100 yadayim of Torah.

In programming, there is the off-by-one error. If you want to build a
split-rail fence 100' long, with uprights every 10', how many uprights
will you need? The intuitive answer is (100 / 10 =) 10. However, this is
putting a fence-post 10' from the start, then 20', 30', etc... to 100'.
But you also need a post at the start itself -- 11 fence-posts in all.

We face a parallel problem routinely when you want to do something to
items numbered m through n in an array (or vector or list). You would
think that means looping over n - m items, but really it's n - m + 1!

E.g. Say you want to visit items 3, 4 and 5. That's three items, but
5 - 3 is only 2. (Really you want 5 - 2, as 2 is the highest numbered
item not visited.)

This creates a gap between cardinal and ordinal numbers, when counting
lengths or durations (measuring, rather than outright counting). The 8th
day does refer to an 8 day set -- when the child is 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,
and 7 days old respectively. So the child is only 7 days old. The first
day the child is 0 days old. Much like the neglected fence-post at the
starting point.

Second issue:

In measuring people's ages, we appear to use the days as a unit. We
don't worry about whether the person was born shortly after tzeis or
shortly before the following sheqiah.

So, he's 13 + yom echad the moment he entered the yom echad of his
birthday. (Miqtzas hayom kekulo?)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
mi...@aishdas.org        I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Helen Keller
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 05:49:08PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: raban gamliel was questioned for setting up pictures of the sun , moon, etc, 

"Was questioned"? The gemara had a hava amina that the issur would include
diagrams of the moon, and realized the assumption was false since R' Gamliel
had such diagrams. They therefore asked why that was, and Abayei explains
that the assumption is an overestimate of the scope of the issur. Abayei's
explanation is challenged because the gemara still assumes it is seeking a
single category, and therefore Abayei sounds like he's being too limiting.
Through this exchange we get the precise topics of pictures that are
prohibited.

But I guarantee you the amoraim aren't questioning the actions of
Rabban Gamliel, doubly not since Rebbe later enshrines his actions in
a mishnah. Amoraim take the halachic positions of tannaim as givens.


: for the eidim, and my question is why could he just not have set up tem-
: poraray pictures, or stick figures (etc) each month, so that though he had 
: to violate a possible (we hold differently nowadays) lav, he could have done
: it in a different way (and perhaps less of a lav??)

These were relatively precise diagrams, so as to include details a lying
Tzeduqi possibly wouldn't know. I think temporary pictures would have
required violated the same issur, but repeatedly.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

any lawyers on the list??
i was wondering what your opinion was of the us supreme (and 
regular court system) re: 7bnoach

mecz

"I was hoping people would understand that I was bothered by the very fact
that RYBS would have based his most famous essay on Jewish thought on
Christian thinkers without even mentioning the fact.  From Brill, it seems
that the ideas were practically copied right out of books by Brunner and
Barth.  Does anyone else have trouble with this?"

1. If the Rav is being accused of plagiarism, how account for the fact that
these same Christian thinkers, and many others, are repeatedly mentioned in
the Rav's major works, and several of them are discussed in Lonely Man?
There is a secret here only for those who are ignorant of the entire
current of 20th century religious thought.

2. In fact Lonely Man was originally delivered to an audience of Christian
theologians. (This is why all the halakhic discussions are found in the
footnotes.) Are we to understand that the Rav fooled the sophisticated
Christians by "copying" from books that were, at that time (and to some
extent today) at the center of their intellectual world? That he has
continued for generations to fool the Christian theologians who teach this
work in their classes?

3. It is perhaps necessary to dispel the illusion that serious thinkers
suck ideas out of their thumbs. Serious thinkers, and even more so great
thinkers, engage the thought of their times, they digest what others have
said, they benefit from the concerns of others. If they are to address the
intellectual crises of their day, they must think together with, and
against, the best minds of their time. And then they put their own stamp on
these ideas. For a psychoanalyst, this means coming to terms with Freud
etc. For a physicist it means Einstein and Heisenberg etc. For a religious
thinker it means grappling with Barth, Otto, Kierkegaard, Newman and so
forth.

4. To reduce any serious educated person, let alone a gadol b'Yisrael, to
the level of an elementary school student cutting and pasting a term paper
says more about the intellectual horizons of those who entertain these
fantasies than about the work they claim to comment on. I am saying this as
politely as I can.

5. I invite anyone who wishes to study a few pages of Barth or Brunner etc
and come to their own conclusions about whether the Rav's writing is
"practically copied right out of their books."

6. I particularly recommend reading Barth and Brunner over the next two
weeks. I am not sure whether a random sampling of the Church Dogmatics or
the Moral Imperative or the commentary on the Epistle to the Romans will
contribute anything positive to the casual reader's yirat Shamayim. Such a
pursuit, however, would be a distraction from yentishkeit and a wholesome
respite from the regimen of rekhilut. What greater boon can there be for
Yamim Noraim than to be deflected from these activities?

Ketiva vaHatima Tova,

Shalom Carmy   

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> These were relatively precise diagrams, so as to include details a lying
> Tzeduqi possibly wouldn't know. I think temporary pictures would have
> required violated the same issur, but repeatedly.

[I should have said "issur [if there were one]". -micha]

but my initial question, of why not set up temporary kind of reminds
me of the discussions of whether henna is ok or not (legabei tattoos)
would not temporary be a little better??

mecz

R' Efraim wrote: 
I was hoping people would understand that I was bothered by the very fact
that RYBS would have based his most famous essay on Jewish thought on
Christian thinkers without even mentioning the fact. 

Whom do you think the Christian thinkers got their thoughts from?
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Someone asked me on the way into work this morning...

Kategoros and sanegoros are Greek terms. And in fact, we don't have
lawyers in beis din. (In the adversarial/advoacate sense of the word,
although to'anim do serve as representatives.)

So why is the metaphor used on Yamim Noraim taken from the Roman judicial
system -- arkaos?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org        in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org   or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

From: Shalom Carmy
Sent: 09/27/11 05:34 PM
> 1. If the Rav is being accused of plagiarism, how account for the fact
> that these same Christian thinkers, and many others, are repeatedly
> mentioned in the Rav's major works, and several of them are discussed
> in Lonely Man? There is a secret here only for those who are ignorant
> of the entire current of 20th century religious thought.

Your points are valid and quite beautifully and compellingly stated;
however, I don't think it's fair to assume that all the list readers are
familiar with religious thought even at this level. I certainly wasn't
until a couple of years ago. In fact I would wager that this list itself
provides first exposure for many of us.

As is well known, some Orthodox leaders opposed open-ended religious
thought in general, and RYBS in particular; so it should come as neither
a surprise nor unwarranted when one of our number is unfamiliar with
the Rav's place in this picture.

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer

On 9/28/2011 8:32 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Kategoros and sanegoros are Greek terms. And in fact, we don't have
> lawyers in beis din. (In the adversarial/advoacate sense of the word,
> although to'anim do serve as representatives.)

> So why is the metaphor used on Yamim Noraim taken from the Roman judicial
> system -- arkaos?

I see kategoras, but I can't find any source for sanegoros.  Are you 
sure that's what the Greek original is?

Anyway, I think you answered the question yourself.  We don't have 
lawyers in beit din.  So the metaphor comes from the surrounding Greek 
culture.

Lisa

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 09:02:51AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I see kategoras, but I can't find any source for sanegoros.  Are you  
> sure that's what the Greek original is?

Synegoros is "ombudsman" in modern Greek, so I think that's somewhere
along the right lines. Someone asked me a question this morning that
intrigued me; I'm not claiming expertise in his givens.

> Anyway, I think you answered the question yourself.  We don't have  
> lawyers in beit din.  So the metaphor comes from the surrounding Greek  
> culture.

That's bedavka my question... Since we don't have adversarial defenders
in beis din, why are we speaking as though there are angels in those
roles in beis din shel maalah? Wouldn't their absence in beis din shel
matah imply that it's not the way one should view justice? Or IOW,
what is different between the justice in beis din and the judgment in
Shamayim that makes lawyers appropriate in the latter, and not the former?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 28/09/2011 9:32 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Someone asked me on the way into work this morning...
>
> Kategoros and sanegoros are Greek terms. And in fact, we don't have
> lawyers in beis din. (In the adversarial/advoacate sense of the word,
> although to'anim do serve as representatives.)
>
> So why is the metaphor used on Yamim Noraim taken from the Roman judicial
> system -- arkaos?

AIUI we do have kategorim and sanegorim in a BD; they are not lawyers
but the dayanim who after hearing the evidence take sides and speak
either for or against the accused, trying to convince the other dayanim
to agree with them.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

On 9/28/2011 9:35 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 09:02:51AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>    
>> I see kategoras, but I can't find any source for sanegoros.  Are you
>> sure that's what the Greek original is?
>>      
> Synegoros is "ombudsman" in modern Greek, so I think that's somewhere
> along the right lines. Someone asked me a question this morning that
> intrigued me; I'm not claiming expertise in his givens.
>    
Ah.  It's synigoros.  Got it.  Thanks.
>> Anyway, I think you answered the question yourself.  We don't have
>> lawyers in beit din.  So the metaphor comes from the surrounding Greek
>> culture.
>>      
> That's bedavka my question... Since we don't have adversarial defenders
> in beis din, why are we speaking as though there are angels in those
> roles in beis din shel maalah? Wouldn't their absence in beis din shel
> matah imply that it's not the way one should view justice? Or IOW,
> what is different between the justice in beis din and the judgment in
> Shamayim that makes lawyers appropriate in the latter, and not the former?
>    
I think that adversarial defenders is the natural, default situation.  
The question would be, why don't we have them.  And I think anyone who 
has ever seen a legal show on TV can figure what the reason is.  The 
partisanship in such a system is incredible.  The lashon hara, motzi 
shem ra, rechilut, etc... it's just really counter-productive.  It turns 
"justice" into gamesmanship.  It remains okay as a metaphor, because 
there are opposite and opposing sides, but like most journalism, it's 
not good for the Jews.

Lisa

Recently someone sent me the link to a video of Chazan Helfgot 
Selichos this year at the Park East Synagogue.  He thought that it 
was very beautiful.

My reactions to this are the following.

1.  These Selichos started at 10:30 PM, well before Chatzos. (See 
http://www.parkeastsynagogue.org/news.php) Is one allowed to say 
Selichos at this time?  Aren't Selichos supposed to be said before 
Shachris.  Indeed, I have been told by a number of people that 
Selichos were said in Europe early in the morning before Shachris, 
even on Motzie Shabbos.

Furthermore, a friend of mine recently told me that the Kiryas Yoel 
Satmar Rebbe issued a strong statement against those who wanted to 
say Selichos at 1 AM after Shabbos. He supposedly said that this was 
never their minhag and that the old Satmar rebbe would have never 
approved of such a thing.

What is the source of the practice of saying Selichos on Motzie 
Shabbos at 1 AM? Indeed, what is the source of the practice of saying 
Selichos on other days in the evening.  This is indeed done in some shuls.

2.  From the video this event appears to me to be more like a concert 
than davening.  Note that the people shown are pretty much passive 
throughout the whole thing. And the fact that it says at 
http://www.parkeastsynagogue.org/news.php

SELICHOT AND HIGH HOLY DAY TICKETS

With the summer already here the High Holy days cannot be far 
away.  On Saturday night September 24, 2011 at 9PM Rabbi Arthur 
Schneier will deliver his annual State of World Jewry address.  At 
10:30PM Selichot services will be led by Chief Cantor Yitzchak Meir 
Helfgot, Maestro Russell Ger and the Park East Synagogue 
Choir.  Synagogue members are entitled to tickets, while non-members 
can purchase Selichot tickets for $50 (rear) or $100 (front) by 
calling the Synagogue office.  As in past years, we expect to sell 
out very quickly so do not wait to make your reservation.  Additional 
tickets for Rosh Hashanah (September 28-30) and Yom Kippur (October 
7-8) can be purchased by members for $500.  The Parallel Service for 
Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur will be held in the Brooks Ballroom and 
officiated by Rabbi Eliyahu Stern and Cantor Laivi 
Freundlich.  Tickets are on sale for $150.

seems to me to back up my observation that this is more of a concert 
than davening.  Is this the "appropriate" way to say Selichos?  YL


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The Seder Avodah of Yom  Kippur
by Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff
 
--quote--
?Probably the least understood part of the  Yom Kippur davening is the 
Seder Avodah recited in the repetition of Musaf.? The  Rav began. ?Although it 
is one of the most important parts of the Yom Kippur  davening, I have seen 
many shuls race through it at a pace too fast for  comprehension.?

?Let me quote you the Me?am Loez,? continued Rav  Goldberg, pulling a 
sefer off the shelf. ?He writes, ?Many people doze off  during the recital of 
the Avodah. They don't realize that the most important  part of Yom Kippur is 
during the repetition of the Sh?moneh Esrei, when the  Seder Avodah is 
recited.??

?I didn't realize it was that  important,? admitted Reb Hershel, ?but it 
is very hard to  understand.?
 
--end quote--





_Click  here:  
http://israel.aish.com/smicha/KaganoffArticles/Seder%20A
vodah%20of%20Yom%20Kippur.rtf_ 
(http://israel.aish.com/smicha/KaganoffArticles/Seder%20A
vodah%20of%20Yom%20Kippur.rtf)  
 
or
 
_http://tinyurl.com/6h2e2s2_ (http://tinyurl.com/6h2e2s2) 
 

--Toby Katz
================




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