Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 194

Mon, 26 Sep 2011

• 1. Re: shofar tones (Saul Guberman)
• 2. slichot abridgements (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. kissing Tzitzit (Joel Schnur)
• 4. Re: Using Non-Jewish Tunes For Mussaf of Rosh Hashanah? (Rafi Hecht)
• 5. Re: Using Non-Jewish Tunes For Mussaf of Rosh Hashanah? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Using Non-Jewish Tunes For Mussaf of Rosh Hashanah? (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Using Non-Jewish Tunes For Mussaf of Rosh Hashanah? (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: R. Reisman's question (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 9. Re: Flight or Fight (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 10. avot (mishna? as binding??) (Harvey Benton)
• 11. Re: RYBS: Sources for "Lonely Man of Faith" (David Riceman)
• 12. Re: Flight or Fight (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: R. Reisman's question (Zev Sero)
• 14. (no subject) (Harvey Benton)
• 15. Re: RYBS: Sources for "Lonely Man of Faith" (Yitzchak Schaffer)

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 14:41, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:

>
> while  shulchan aruch seems to codify length of  tones  [ how many beats ;
> tekiah duration; number of shevarim] ,  it's not  clear  if the  tone
> [should we  say notes to be played]  are codified.  eg    is a tekiah  to
>  be one pure  tone  DAAAAAAH ; or  du-DAAAH-du   ...   same  with
>  shvarim---   an  undulating  sound du-DAH-du  ; or  DAAH ...
>
> is this codified  anywhere?  is it  kehilla -specific  , or  baal tokeah's
> choice ?  is  one  yotzeh  with  an alternative tekiah or  shevarim from teh
> one you're used to?


A friend of mine who is a baal tokeah, Marvin Steifel, has written a dvar
torah/shiur (20 pages with 7 pages of footnotes) on the topic of blowing
shofar.  He sites RAMBAN drasha on Rosh Hashana, that a tekiah must be a
straight,simple sound.

The shevarim & teruah have changed over time & place.  He sites Tosephos
interpretation of Rashi on Rosh Hashana 33B and Moadim Uzmanim by Rav Moshe
Sterbuch who sites the siddurs of Rav Saadia Goan  & Rav Amram Goan; as well
as much anecdotal evidence.

I can send you the pdf if you are interested.

KvCT,

Saul
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as nusach ashkenaz  slichot is  currently the longest version, am curious 
current  practice  in terms of  anything  abridged  especially on erev  RH 
, where  the  full text.  runs  about  2 hr
specifically  current practice  in re   deleting   the following  types of 
paragraph--
kerachem av,   particular  slichot ,  tchinot after  tachanun  [enkat 
mesaldecha eg ] ....
also , are  any congregations  other  than large 'modern'  ones  doing 
these long services  post  maariv the nite  before?

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I was interested in learning from David about R'Natroni Gaon's opinions on
the kissing of tzitzis during davening. The Vilna Gaon's attitude on the
topic, was as follows:

 

No holding nor kissing after Baruch Sheamar and holding of only the front
two during krias shema and during the last parsha of KS, one only looks at
them. No attempt is made to kiss them. They are released after Emes. 

 

The one time I davened with R' Shlom Schwadron in the Shaarei Chesed vasikin
minyan, I distinctly remember him flinging his tzitis down right after emes
and I remember it because I can still conjure up that fling, never having
seen it before or since. No idea if it was just that day or always. Perhaps
someone else can enlighten us.

 

Joel

 

___________________________

Joel Schnur

Senior VP

Government Affairs/Public Relations

Schnur Associates, Inc.

1350 Avenue of the Americas

Suite 1200

New York, NY 10019

 

Tel. 212-489-0600 x204

Fax. 212-489-0203 

j...@schnurassociates.com 

www.schnurassociates.com
<http://www.schnurassociates.com/>  

 

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By the way, speaking of non-Jewish music and Kol Nidrei, ever wonder where
the tune comes from? You guesses it - Classical music! Beethoven's "Adagio
Quasi Un Poco Andante - Beethoven Op. 131. 14/6 C#," in fact!

I attached a Youtube clip of the original tune. You be the judge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpkShlRJa8

Best Regards,

Rafi Hecht
rhe...@gmail.com
416-276-6925
www.rafihecht.com
---
Never Trust a Computer You Can't Throw Out a Window - Steve Wozniak


On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Rafi Hecht <rhe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I guess this means no Darth Vader theme music for Kol Nidrei since C-3PO
> looks like a golden idol! (Star Wars fan, anyone?)
>
> This is how the tune would go ... Hashem is judging us!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rafi Hecht
> rhe...@gmail.com
> 416-276-6925
> www.rafihecht.com
> ---
> Never Trust a Computer You Can't Throw Out a Window - Steve Wozniak
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
>
>>  From http://revach.net/article.php?id=919
>>
>> The Rema paskens (53:25) that a chazzan that sings non-Jewish tunes should
>> be warned to stop and removed if he doesn't do so.  The Mogen Avrohom says
>> this doesn't mean in his free time, but rather that he uses these tunes as
>> part of his davening.
>>
>> The Bach says that this only applies to songs that were composed
>> specifically for service of Avoda Zara or songs that have words that
>> everyone knows.  When people hear these songs it will conjure up the exact
>> opposite images that we should have in our head during Tefila.
>>
>> However goyish tunes without any words or words that are unknown to most
>> people are permissible to be used in davening as has been the minhag by many
>> Gedolei Yisroel.  (Piskei Teshuvos 53:27)
>>
>>
>
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On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 05:11:01PM -0400, Rafi Hecht wrote:
: By the way, speaking of non-Jewish music and Kol Nidrei, ever wonder where
: the tune comes from? You guesses it - Classical music! Beethoven's "Adagio
: Quasi Un Poco Andante - Beethoven Op. 131. 14/6 C#," in fact!
: 
: I attached a Youtube clip of the original tune. You be the judge.
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpkShlRJa8

Just the opening phrase. But, you underestimate the Ashkenazi melody
for Kol Nidrei. It was one of the tunes the Maharil declared miSinai,
meaning it was old even when he was born in 1365 or so. (And thus to
be considered minhag kedin.) Beethoven was born in 1770. If there was
borrowing, it went the other way.

However... the opening is a standard motif in Catholic Plainsong written
in Phrigian mode. (Phrygian: a scale that starts at D and runs through
the piano's white keys to the next D.) Which is more interesting from
the perspective of the original question.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

On 9/26/2011 4:39 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 05:11:01PM -0400, Rafi Hecht wrote:
> : By the way, speaking of non-Jewish music and Kol Nidrei, ever wonder where
> : the tune comes from? You guesses it - Classical music! Beethoven's "Adagio
> : Quasi Un Poco Andante - Beethoven Op. 131. 14/6 C#," in fact!
> :
> : I attached a Youtube clip of the original tune. You be the judge.
> : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpkShlRJa8
>
> Just the opening phrase. But, you underestimate the Ashkenazi melody
> for Kol Nidrei. It was one of the tunes the Maharil declared miSinai,
> meaning it was old even when he was born in 1365 or so. (And thus to
> be considered minhag kedin.) Beethoven was born in 1770. If there was
> borrowing, it went the other way.
>
>    
Not that I'm disagreeing, but how do you know that the tune we have 
today is the one the Maharil was talking about?

Lisa

At 04:38 PM 9/26/2011, Lisa Liel wrote:

>On 9/26/2011 8:03 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> > From http://revach.net/article.php?id=919
> >> The Rema paskens (53:25) that a chazzan that sings non-Jewish tunes
> >> should be warned to stop and removed if he doesn't do so.  The Mogen
> >> Avrohom says this doesn't mean in his free time, but rather that he
> >> uses these tunes as part of his davening.
>
>What constitutes a non-Jewish tune?  Is Erev Shel Shoshanim, which is an
>Israeli tune, but not particularly a Jewish tune, acceptable by this
>standard?
>
>Lisa

RSRH makes a distinction between something being non-Jewish and 
something being un-Jewish.  From 
"<http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/22379>The Difference 
Between 'Non-Jewish' and 'Un-Jewish'" The Jewish Press, July 25, 2007, page 1

"R. Hirsch uses the term 'un-Jewish' (unjudisch) to mean not in the 
spirit of Torah Judaism, as distinct from 'non-Jewish.'"

Rav Hirsch does not lump all things of gentile origin into the same 
class. Some things that come from non-Jewish sources are indeed 
completely incompatible with Judaism. These he classifies as 
"un-Jewish" - to be avoided at all costs.

There are, however, many things that stem from outside the Jewish 
world that are to be considered as "non-Jewish" - that is, their 
source is not from Judaism, but they are compatible with Yahadus.

The article I quoted from does make this distinction, unfortunately. YL

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     Regarding the discussion of bar-mitzva and birthdays, note that on the
     day of his birth, a boy is ben yom echad, not ben zero yamim. 
     Therefore, 13 years are not completed until he is ben sh'losha asar
     v'yom echad.  Likewise, Moshe was born as a ben yom echad -- on the
     first day of his first year, and thus did not reach 120 full years
     until the first day of his 121st year.

     In English, we would say that a boy's bris takes place when he is
     seven days old -- which is the eighth day of his life.  But the Torah
     calls him "ben sh'monas yamim" -- eight days old.	Chazal adopted the
     same terminology; hence, "thirteen and a day."

EMT

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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> But in any case, traveling more than 3 parsah on Fri is a
> halachic problem.
>    Sukkah 44b
>    OC 149:1

(Tzarich lomar: OC 249:1)

Yes, technically you're correct. It is a halachic problem. But "the
problem" stated there is the fear that when he arrives, they'll have to
cook extra for this unexpected arrival. And for that reason, the Mechaber
there explicitly says that if he wrote them in advance, so that they *are*
expecting him and will have prepared for him, then there is no problem.

I have often wondered why Chazal don't seem to have been worried about
delays or interruptions in the travel plans. Did no one's horse ever die
while travelling on Erev Shabbos? Did no one encounter an unexpected river,
or a bridge that had become unusable?

I did not see anything of this sort in the Mishna Brurah. Do any other poskim deal with such issues?

It is my opinion that nowadays, when telephones make it a simple matter to
alert those at our distination about our travel plans, airline travel on
Erev Shabbos afternoon is a gross violation of "the fifth chelek of
Shulchan Aruch", but it NOT a violation of the first chelek.

Akiva Miller

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-is the pirkei avot considered a mishna?? (and thus possibly binding as halacha???
or is it just considered as possibly from the mishnaic era, and just good advice??
also,
when the mishna in avot says that one? shouldn't judge one's chaver (whatever a cha-
ver definition is) until one reaches or "gets to his place" does it mean 

1. can we EVER really know someone and/or their circumstances??? ...since we are

all different; and therefore should judge l'kaf schut;? and 2:. when the gemarra (judges,
like reuben or david hamelech [l'kav schut??] did "they" get to their place?? 

(eg, did Hashem throught ruach? hakodesh, take them, or? show them that in fact 

reuven did not move his? fathers' bed, and/or that dovid did not sin with batsheva, etc, ???
--> or do we hold that when the amoraim were judging dovid hamelech, etc, they were 

not judging them as "chavercha??"
hb
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RYS:

<<IIRC Otto spoke of Abraham as Knight of Faith>>

You've confused him with Kierkegaard ("Fear and Trembling").

David Riceman

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 10:10:37PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: > But in any case, traveling more than 3 parsah on Fri is a
: > halachic problem.
: >    Sukkah 44b
: >    OC [2]49:1
...
: Yes, technically you're correct. It is a halachic problem. But "the
: problem" stated there is the fear that when he arrives, they'll have to
: cook extra for this unexpected arrival...

I thought the din was you had to be sure to arrive on time. It's "just"
that an time doesn't mean sheqi'ah, it means enough time before sheqi'ah
to be ready.

See MB s"q 3, 6.

I thus understood 249:1 to be a continuation of 248, which discusses long
multiday trips and the potential for causing chilul Shabbos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On 26/09/2011 8:01 PM, Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
> on the day of his birth, a boy is ben yom echad, not ben zero yamim [...]
>  a boy's bris takes place when he is seven days old [...] the Torah calls
> him "ben sh'monas yamim"

And a lamb is "ben shana", and fit for the korban tamid, from its birth
*until* its first birthday, velo ad bichlal.


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

raban gamliel was questioned for setting up pictures of the sun , moon, etc, 

for the eidim, and my question is why could he just not have set up tem-
poraray pictures, or stick figures (etc) each month, so that though he had 

to violate a possible (we hold differently nowadays) lav, he could have done
it in a different way (and perhaps less of a lav??)
hb
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Whoops, no, Knight of Faith is Kirkegaarde, who was definitely an
influence. Otto's contribution may have been the idea of creatureliness,
which is embodied in Adam II.

--
Yitzchak Schaffer


On Sep 26, 2011, at 9:58, Yitzchak Schaffer <yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com> wrote:

> I think one may be Idea of the Holy:
> http://www.amazon.com/Idea-Holy-R-Otto/dp/0195002105
> 
> IIRC Otto spoke of Abraham as Knight of Faith, which I think RYBS adopts or adapts.
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