Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 193

Mon, 26 Sep 2011

• 1. Re: Flight or Fight (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Flight or Fight (Harry Maryles)
• 3. Re: RYBS: Sources for "Lonely Man of Faith" (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 4. kosher switch (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Kol isha in Tzahal (Zev Sero)
• 6. Using Non-Jewish Tunes For Mussaf of Rosh Hashanah? (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Brisker Derekh (Micha Berger)
• 8. flight or fight (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: Using Non-Jewish Tunes For Mussaf of Rosh Hashanah? (Mandel, Seth)
• 10. Re: Using Non-Jewish Tunes For Mussaf of Rosh Hashanah? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Using Non-Jewish Tunes For Mussaf of Rosh Hashanah? (Lisa Liel)
• 12. The Teshuva Week (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: r reisman's question (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 14. Re: r reisman's question (Rich, Joel)
• 15. shofar tones (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 16. Re: kosher switch (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Using Non-Jewish Tunes For Mussaf of Rosh Hashanah? (Allan Engel)

On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 08:55:16PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Chilul Shabbos?!
...
> Also note that the "ethicist" thinks it would be perfectly reasonable
> to turn the plane around if someone had a medical emergency.  Why is
> one person's medical emergency more important than another person's
> Shabbos emergency?

Well, since someone's medical emergency is dokheh Shabbos (whether
directly or mipenei eivah), it seems to me the ethicist hit upon
the correct ranking.

But in any case, traveling more than 3 parsah on Fri is a halachic
problem.
    Sukkah 44b
    OC 149:1

Bizman hazeh I assume that means more than 3 hr 36 min (or 4:48 according
to the SA haRav's 24 min parsa), not just 12 km or so. The MB s"q 1
mentions a qulah of allowing such travel if you're expected to arrive
with more than 1/3 of the day (4 sha'os zemaniyos) left.

I therefore am inclined toward R Prof YL's perception that booking the
flight was chilul Shabbos to begin with. (Written in wishy-washy language
because I don't have enough details of the story to be sure.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

--- On Mon, 9/26/11, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:



On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 08:55:16PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Chilul Shabbos?!
...
> Also note that the "ethicist" thinks it would be perfectly reasonable
> to turn the plane around if someone had a medical emergency.? Why is
> one person's medical emergency more important than another person's
> Shabbos emergency?

Well, since someone's medical emergency is dokheh Shabbos (whether
directly or mipenei eivah), it seems to me the ethicist hit upon
the correct ranking.
-----------------------------
?
IOW - Chamira Sakanta Me'Isura
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

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On 09/25/2011 08:30, Efraim Yawitz wrote:
> I've been browsing through an essay by Professor Alan Brill in a book
> about RYBS's thought called "Rav ba'Olam Chadash" in which he claims
> that the central ideas for "The Lonely Man of Faith" (the "covenantal
> community", "two Adams", etc.) were taken from the writings of early
> 20th century Christian theologians.  Does anyone know anything about this?
>

I think one may be Idea of the Holy:
http://www.amazon.com/Idea-Holy-R-Otto/dp/0195002105

IIRC Otto spoke of Abraham as Knight of Faith, which I think RYBS adopts 
or adapts.

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
212.742.8770 ext. 2432
http://www.tourolib.org/

Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu

While R. Rosen writes against the kosher switch, I note that Zomet does
allow the use
pf a dishwasher on shabbat subject to several restrictions

http://www.zomet.org.il/Eng/?CategoryID=250&;ArticleID=105

Anyone know how accepted these conclusions are?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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The Chief Rabbi R Metzger has issued a psak din supporting the soldiers
who walked out, and calling on the IDF not to put religious soldiers into
such situations, and -- if necessary -- to arrange for a way for them to
leave discreetly for that segment, so as not to disrupt the event.

(PDF attached; [see <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/kolIshaRYM.pdf>]

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=919

The Rema paskens (53:25) that a chazzan that sings non-Jewish tunes 
should be warned to stop and removed if he doesn't do so.  The Mogen 
Avrohom says this doesn't mean in his free time, but rather that he 
uses these tunes as part of his davening.

The Bach says that this only applies to songs that were composed 
specifically for service of Avoda Zara or songs that have words that 
everyone knows.  When people hear these songs it will conjure up the 
exact opposite images that we should have in our head during Tefila.

However goyish tunes without any words or words that are unknown to 
most people are permissible to be used in davening as has been the 
minhag by many Gedolei Yisroel.  (Piskei Teshuvos 53:27)

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 From R Joel Rich's most recent "audio roundup" on Hirhurim, I'm quoting
this non-audio comment in full.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

I found the following thoughts on the Brisker method by R'David Bigman
in the recent "Conversations" of great interest.

    The advantage of this method is that Talmudic study becomes a
    fascinating philosophical discussion. But it has three significant
    drawbacks: The first disadvantage, which is recognized in the yeshiva
    world, is that sometimes its innovative insights simply do not fit
    the text; the text is exploited to make the abstraction attributed
    to it. The second problem is that despite the initial interest
    that such study creates, at some point all the Talmudic passages
    begin to sound alike. There are predetermined arguments the student
    anticipates. Patterns of thought are repeated until almost all the
    halakhic discussion is given over to this type of analysis. For
    each question that arises there is a prepackaged answer. The third
    problem is the loss of the learner's awareness that the halakhic
    discussion almost always addresses a human, down-to-earth reality. The
    sages who dealt with the issues throughout the ages were intimately
    connected to reality. The discussions in the Talmud are often tied
    into the experiences, culture, and conceptions of justice of the
    individuals making their case. The rapid leap to abstraction loses
    the appreciation for the complexities and alternative explanations
    of the subject at hand.

Me [RJR]- Having been "raised" in Brisk (to the extent I had any early
interest) I applied that style for years [when I returned to learning]. At
some point I realized it had great power but sometime seemed very
forced. My current thinking (oy, I sound so pompous) is that much like in
math, where some knotty problems are attacked by multiple strategies (at
least until we reach a TOE) such as topology, algebra, number theory...,
so too until the TOE of torah is rediscovered, differing approaches
may be appropriate in differing cases. (Put another way, R'Glickman,
R'Rosensweig, R'Sacks and R'Wieder all have made deposits in my tool box).

<<Also note that the "ethicist" thinks it would be perfectly reasonable
to turn the plane around if someone had a medical emergency.  Why is
one person's medical emergency more important than another person's
Shabbos emergency?>>

What Shabbos emergency?They are not doing any melacha. At worse they have
to spend the shabbat in the airport. Is this inconvenience worth
inconveniencing many other passengers
especially a medically sick person.

Besides I have that one can use a taxi driven by a goy (I assume in the US
that is most taxis) to get to
one's home/hotel and make arrangements for the payment.
As to Zev's claim of a kiddush hashem my take is what would we say if the
situation was reversed.
If your flight was cancelled because of a religious Muslim,Sikh etc would
your gut feeling be that
you appreciate that person's convictions


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Sep 26, 2011, at 9:04 AM, "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> From <http://revach.net/article.php?id=919>
>> However goyish tunes without any words or words that are unknown to most
>> people are permissible to be used in davening as has been the minhag by
>> many Gedolei Yisroel. (Piskei Teshuvos 53:27)

"many gedolei Yisroel"!!? Only chassidishe ones

Rabbi Seth Mandel
Sent from my iPhone

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 11:03:45AM -0400, Mandel, Seth wrote:
: "many gedolei Yisroel"!!? Only chassidishe ones

There are and have been many chassidishe gedolei Yisrael.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 9/26/2011 8:03 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://revach.net/article.php?id=919
>> The Rema paskens (53:25) that a chazzan that sings non-Jewish tunes 
>> should be warned to stop and removed if he doesn't do so.  The Mogen 
>> Avrohom says this doesn't mean in his free time, but rather that he 
>> uses these tunes as part of his davening.

What constitutes a non-Jewish tune?  Is Erev Shel Shoshanim, which is an 
Israeli tune, but not particularly a Jewish tune, acceptable by this 
standard?

Lisa

RSRH writes about what people used to do in the past during what he 
calls The Teshuva Week.  I have posted this at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/teshuva_week.pdf   It is an 
excerpt from his essay Tishrei III that appears in Volume II of his 
Collected Writings.

Personally, I find what he wrote most appropriate for this time of year.  YL

R"n Toby Katz wrote:
 
> How can it  be that a person is born on 7 Adar and also dies on
> 7 Adar and we call that a  full year? (Or in Moshe Rabbeinu's
> case, 120 full years.) Isn't that a year plus a day?  The answer
> is no, it's just one full year, not a year and a day.

That's not how I read the Mishneh Berurah 55:42 --

> "And one day": Not neccessarily a day, but rather once he has
> entered the beginning of a day of his 14th year, and even one
> hour, and even one moment, it is sufficient.

It is clear to me that the MB is focusing on the title words "one day". He
is stressing that we should not take the word "day" too strongly, for this
extra day need not be a complete one -- even a tiny part of that day is
sufficient. And he never suggests that this (partial) day is unnecessary or
superfluous. It can be very short, but it is a real requirement, above and
beyond the 13 years.

If so, then the "13 years" had elapsed even before the extra day began. A
person born on 7 Adar would become Bar Mitzvah on 7 Adar, but he would
become 13 years old on *6* Adar. This seems to be the main thrust of Rav
Reisman's question about Moshe Rabenu -- that he became 120 years old on 6
Adar, not 7 Adar.

However, that same Mishneh Brurah continues:

> Even if he was born at the end of the day on Rosh Hashana, then -
> since it is definitely still daytime - he becomes 13 years old at
> the beginning of the night of Rosh Hashana of the 14th year.

According to this, he does indeed become 13 years old on the same calendar
day as he was born. The boy of which the MB speaks did not become 13 years
old on 29 Elul, but rather "he becomes 13 years old at the beginning of the
night of Rosh Hashana", i.e., on 1 Tishre.

This could be an answer to Rav Reisman's question: Moshe Rabenu did indeed become 120 years old on 7 Adar.

It is unfortunate that the same Chofetz Chayim made both comments. I'd like
to say that the second one was a slip of the pen, and what he really meant
was not "he becomes 13 years old at the beginning of the night of Rosh
Hashana", but rather "he becomes Bar Mitzvah at the beginning of the night
of Rosh Hashana". This would be consistent with the first part of that MB.
But Who knows what he really meant?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
60-Year-Old Mom Looks 27
Mom Reveals Free Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4e80c59b36b471c5727st03vuc

It is unfortunate that the same Chofetz Chayim made both comments. I'd like
to say that the second one was a slip of the pen, and what he really meant
was not "he becomes 13 years old at the beginning of the night of Rosh
Hashana", but rather "he becomes Bar Mitzvah at the beginning of the night
of Rosh Hashana". This would be consistent with the first part of that MB.
But Who knows what he really meant?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
FWIW R"HS often says that the C"C acted as general editor but didn't "write" the M"B from cover to cover.
KT
Joel Rich
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while  shulchan aruch seems to codify length of  tones  [ how many beats ; 
tekiah duration; number of shevarim] ,  it's not  clear  if the  tone 
[should we  say notes to be played]  are codified.  eg    is a tekiah  to 
be one pure  tone  DAAAAAAH ; or  du-DAAAH-du   ...   same  with 
shvarim---   an  undulating  sound du-DAH-du  ; or  DAAH ...

is this codified  anywhere?  is it  kehilla -specific  , or  baal tokeah's 
choice ?  is  one  yotzeh  with  an alternative tekiah or  shevarim from 
teh one you're used to?


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On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 02:35:20PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: While R. Rosen writes against the kosher switch, I note that Zomet does
: allow the use of a dishwasher on shabbat subject to several restrictions

Is there a connection between the two? I don't see any element
of double-uncertainty added to geramah in the bit about dishwashers.
Perhaps you see a parallel I'm missing?

They're setting up a situation where a dishwasher is nothing more than
a shabbos clock. (And the noise is when no one is around to hear it.) I
would think you might need a "blech" on the switches, lest you see you
set the wrong temp or timing, and push buttons out of habit.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net> wrote:
> What constitutes a non-Jewish tune?  Is Erev Shel Shoshanim, which is an
> Israeli tune, but not particularly a Jewish tune, acceptable by this
> standard?

Some of the tunes used in Ashkenaz kehillos for the last 150 years have
a marked similarity to German folk and liturgical tunes, without the
influence of any Chasidisher gedolim.



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