Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 183

Thu, 08 Sep 2011

• 1. Re: mesira vs chillul hashem (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Middos of the Avos (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. patterns??? (Harvey Benton)
• 6. Re: mesira vs chillul hashem (Dorron Katzin)
• 7. Re: mesira vs chillul hashem (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: mesira vs chillul hashem (harchinam)
• 9. Re: mesira vs chillul hashem (Dorron Katzin)
• 10. Re: mesira vs chillul hashem (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Middos of the Avos (Liron Kopinsky)
• 12. Re: Middos of the Avos (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 13. Messilat Yesharim and Peer Pressure (Liron Kopinsky)
• 14. Re: Ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (D&E-H Bannett)
• 15. zrizim and mitzvot/// (Harvey Benton)
• 16. Re: Ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Middos of the Avos (Micha Berger)

On 7/09/2011 2:17 PM, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
>
> so the question is, if it's not chillul hashem  [or chillul O  or chillul chassidus  etc] , then  what do you call the inevitable anti- frum jew feelings
> engendered in either non-Jews or non-O clergy?   just  jew hatred?

If you're worried about that sort of so-called "chilul hashem", then the
biggest example of it is our opposition to intermarriage.  That is the
most "fanatical" and "bigoted" part of our ideology, the part most likely
to make the average American despise us and the Torah.  So if the "mal`igim"
were a factor, we should stop opposing intermarriage, and join Senator
Lieberman in saying that we're fine with it.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On 7/09/2011 1:14 PM, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
> Along those lines, the line ???? ??? ?????, ???? ???? ??????? in
> Tehillim 104 sounds almost like a pun.

??????...?????? in Shema surely is a pun.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

R"n Toby Katz wrote:

> The "ng" sound is natural in the middle or end of a word but  
> would be hard to pronounce at the beginning of a word.
 
Tell that to the millions of Chinese for whom "Ng" in their entire surname.

(For more info, see both articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wi
ki/Wu_(surname)  It seems that the very same name is transliterated
both as "Ng" and as "Woo" or "Wu".)

Akiva Miller


____________________________________________________________
57-Year-Old Mom Looks 25
Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4e67dd192190b19bbst04vuc

R' Yitzchak Schaffer suggested:

> The two possibilities that occurred to me:
> - Their souls were pre-wired for perfection in these middos
> - The individuals cultivated their respective middos to a
>   phenomenal degree

It seems obvious to me that if they were pre-wired for PERFECTION, then
they would have had no challenge, and hence no zechus for succeeding. But
they did, and this (to me) proves that they were not pre-wired for
*perfection*.

But I can easily believe that they were pre-wired to be interested in those
midos, no less than one person is interested in Mesilas Yesharim and
another in Chovos Helevavos. And then, as RYS says, they worked on
themselves and "cultivated their respective middos to a phenomenal degree."

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
57-Year-Old Mom Looks 25
Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4e67de86ca76cb2102st04vuc

patterns of favoritism: 
we all know the damage that yaakov did by favoritising joseph. 
q1. was this done by ruach hakodesh other intentful purpose (
q1a what did the coat of many colors represent and if it had to 
be given tohim, why not give it b'zina)?
q2. why did yaakov make a similar?mistake?by?favoritising 
certain wives and families, versus 
others (when meeting up with his brother Eisava???)
3. if he really wanted rachel all along, why din't he just cancel the
whole thing off after the ruse was revealed the next morning?
(on the grounds that it was a mekach taot)..... 
instead, he favors rochels children, and throughout the ages, we 
end up paying for it.......(eg, he bowed down to eisav, etc, 
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On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 13:17, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:
>> Why do you make that assumption?

> -  if  he is wrong , than any chillul hashem emenating from a sin should
>  engender culpability. no chiddush....

> so let's grant he's right.   does  chillul hahsem ever emanate from doing a
> mitzva? my understanding  is no mattter who
> feels you, your religion , or your G-d  are  ridiculous based on doing  a
> correct  halachic practice, call it what you may it's not a chillul hashem?

In the United States, I am not willing to grant that he could be right.

If you have not already read it, I suggest the article written by Rav Broyde
about the issues of Mesira in America
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/mesiralaw2.html

On Wed, Sep 07, 2011 at 04:45:09PM -0500, Dorron Katzin wrote:
: In the United States, I am not willing to grant that he could be right.

We also have RHS's position that uvi'arta hara'ah miqirbekha obligates
us to assist secular laws that are part of implementing the 7th mitzvah
benei Noach.

The previous cycle on mesirah bizman hazeh was pretty recent.
It is a subset of our discussion at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=D#DINA%20DEMALCHUTA>
and <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=I#IS%20THIS%20MUTTAR
>

As well as my Dec 2008 post WRT mesirah and Madoff
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol25/v25n433.shtml#01>. A partial quote
of RHS I'm copying from that post:
> If, however, one is guilty of a crime, and according to the law of the
> land deserves a prison sentence, or will be put to death, even though
> according to Jewish law his punishment would not be as severe, this is
> not mesirah (see Ritva to Bava Metsia 83b; Dvar Avraham vol. I pg. 8).
> ... In an instance of avoiding a chilul Hashem, just like we would
> be obligated to return the aveidas akum, so too we would be obligated
> to hand over this individual (see Rama, Choshen Mishpat 388:12).

> If the non-Jewish governmental authorities know that one Jew is
> concealing information about another Jew in order to save him from
> punishment, the Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 28:3) considers this a
> situation of chilul Hashem...

> Even if one is guilty of a crime and deserves a punishment according to
> the laws of the land, but due to anti-semetic attitudes he will probably
> suffer more than if he were a non-Jew; or, the (state) prison conditions
> are such that he will suffer at the hands of the other inmates (or at
> the hands of the guards) in a manner that is not proscribed by law, then
> turning the offender in would constitute mesirah... However, mesirah
> is permitted in situations where one is a public menace (see Shach to
> Choshen Mishpat 388, 59), or if one is physically or psychologically
> harming another individual ... (see Shach to Choshen Mishpat ibid, 45).

> The Jewish community does not have the ability to investigate these
> types of cases. Wherever there are raglayim ladavar that there seems
> to be a problem, the proper government agencies should be contacted to
> investigate.

In a country where Jews wouldn't assume we get anti-semitism motivated
sentencing, the third paragraph quoted requires informing the authorities.

RHS also obligates informing if we are talking about a more hostile
country, but there are raglayim ledavar that the person is physically
or psychologically dangerous to the public. (Not even to Yehudim in
particular.)

Notice how this differs from the Agudah's recent statement about
people about whom there are raglayim ledavar for an accusation of child
molesting. What the Agudah is saying within a non-antisemitic system
RHS limits to overriding someone else to anti-semitic treatment.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

But in this case the person involved has already served jail time for his
crime and for the refusal to inform on others. Does this not make a
difference in both the idea of mesira and double jeopardy in US law? I'm
with the rabbi on this one; he's already been punished for his crime and the
sentence was lengthened because he wouldn't tell the first time. Leave him
alone already. If they have a case they can make it and if not just drop it
already.

*** Rena
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Perhaps one of the attorneys in the group could explain the law.  I do
recall news coverage about people being placed in jail for refusing to
testify.  They seem to have wide latitude.


On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 18:20, harchinam <harchi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> But in this case the person involved has already served jail time for his
> crime and for the refusal to inform on others. Does this not make a
> difference in both the idea of mesira and double jeopardy in US law? I'm
> with the rabbi on this one; he's already been punished for his crime and the
> sentence was lengthened because he wouldn't tell the first time. Leave him
> alone already. If they have a case they can make it and if not just drop it
> already.
>
> *** Rena
>
>
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> Does this not make a difference in both the idea of mesira and double jeopardy in US law?

The proposal to imprison him now is not supposed to be as a punishment,
but rather like imprisoning someone in Israel to persuade him to give a
get.  It's not a punishment at all, just a means of persuasion.  Thus,
if he out-stubborns the court until the issue becomes moot (the grand
jury is dissolved, or the wife dies) then he is automatically released.
By the same token, if it becomes clear that he will never bend no matter
what is done to him, then once again he must be released, because keeping
him imprisoned serves no purpose, and would therefore be punitive, which
illegitimate.  And that's what his lawyer is claiming here: he's already
shown that he takes his religious principles seriously enough to be moser
nefesh for them; there is no reason at all to suppose that another few
months or year in prison is going to change that, so there's no legitimate
purpose in putting him there.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

>
> A question WRT the middos commonly attributed to the Avos (Avraham <==>
> chesed, etc.). What is the nature of the relationship of these middos to
> their respective figures? The two possibilities that occurred to me:
>
> - Their souls were pre-wired for perfection in these middos
> - The individuals cultivated their respective middos to a phenomenal degree
>

To take your second point a bit farther - is it possible that they were
wired for the *opposite* of these middot and managed to utterly conquer
their inherent nature? This would be an exceeding madreiga to reach -
especially for Avraham Avinu, as he would have had to come to the logical
conclusion of a God of Chesed even though he would have had the opposite
leanings himself.

I always understood one of the tests of Akeidat Yitzchak was utter
subservience to Hashem even though it ran utterly against everything Avraham
Avinu stood for - but this could be because it ran against everything his
inborn middot drove him to or because it ran against everything he had
finally managed to conquer. I'm not sure which is a bigger test.

Kol Tuv,
Liron
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On 09/07/2011 17:13, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> It seems obvious to me that if they were pre-wired for PERFECTION,
> then they would have had no challenge, and hence no zechus for
> succeeding. But they did, and this (to me) proves that they were not
> pre-wired for *perfection*.
>

That makes sense to me as well, and would be my initial read; but built 
into that is the mussaristic assumption that these middos attributions 
of the Avos related to their personal growth. I'm challenging that 
assumption, especially given that there are Midrashic accounts of 
Avraham being endowed with mystical knowledge at the age of three, etc.

So for example, one could say that Avraham was endowed ("artificially") 
with perfection in chesed, so that he could accomplish something 
transcendent in the world therewith. To develop this: let's say he was 
endowed with perfection in chesed, and had to act *against* that to 
balance it out, e.g. exiling Yishmael, putting Yitzchak up for 
slaughter. Sarah was a foil to Avraham's absolute chesed.

And as to RMB's initial response:
 > It looks to me like you're posing nature vs nurture WRT the avos, and
 > thus the same "a mix of the two" answer ought to apply.

I'd say nature vs. achievement, just to clarify that it was their own 
project and not a flat-out Divine gift. Perhaps you meant this, but 
"nurture" sounds to me more like upbringing than personal endeavor.

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer

A Rabbi I know from Los Angeles has started a project for Elul to get people
to read through Mesillat Yesharim during the month - about a chapter a day.
I've signed on, and as part of the project he started a blog (
http://elulbook.blogspot.com<;
http://elulb
ook.blogspot.com/2011/09/peer-pressure.html>)
for people to post their insights into the book.

Here is what I posted there - if anyone has an answer, I'd love to hear it:

 When describing the things that get in the way of proper Zehirut, Ramchal
names 3 reasons: Being too busy, not taking life seriously, and having bad
friends. Ramchal previously talked about being too busy as being the big
challenge to Zehirut, and being overly jovial and not taking things
seriously seems to be the direct opposite of Zehirut, so it makes sense why
Ramchal mentions these two here.

Having bad friends is interesting, however, as its opposite - having good
friends - is not mentioned as one of the positive ways of acquiring Zehirut.
This is strange because in Pirkei Avot (Chapter 2
<http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94_%
D7%90%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%91>)
it says "?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????" - "What is the straight path that a
person should stick to?" - and one of the answers given there is "??? ???" -
"a good friend." In the mishna this is contrasted with the question "What is
the bad path that a person should distance himself from?" with one of the
answers being "bad friends."

Why did Ramchal leave out positive peer pressure?


Kol Tuv,
Liron
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I don't quite understand how a discussion about the 
pronunciation of the 'ayyin is entitled "Ancient Ashkenazic 
Hebrew".  Perhaps, the justification is that modern 
Ashkenazic Hebrew does not pronunce the 'ayyin  at all.  The 
question that remains is whether the 'ayyin disappeared 
before or after the term Ashkenazim came into use.

From my experience, the strong -ng sound is more common with 
the Portuguesim than the Italkim.

In the Hongkong shul, where the siddurim and chumashim 
printed for the Spanish Portuguese synagogue had English 
translations and some transliterations, I was surprised to 
see on the English side of the siddur above kri'at Sh'ma' 
the words "Shemang Yisrael".  In the chumash the parasha 
named "Behangalotekha" drew my attention. These are the 
among the strongest memories of my 1968 Rosh Hashana in 
Hongkong.

As to 'Aza and 'Amorah becoming Gaza and Gemorrah in English 
and the two 'ayyins, d'gusha and rafa:  Note that Akko 
became Acre in English, evidently  because it had the 'ayyin 
rather than the nGayyin.

As part of the same story, note that the cities of Tyre and 
Sidon in Lebanon are Tzor and Tziddon in Hebrew, both with 
tzadi.

BTW, it was probably noted that my last posting about 
Shabbat hamalka was a bit mixed up.  My mind was evidently 
not in gear.  I hope this posting doesn't suffer from the 
same disease. If it does, please  don't be afraid to inform 
me.


kvh"t,

David 

why do we put on one of the tefillins first, when the other is meakev?
same would go for saying [brachot] and hinneni muchen umezuman,?
before doing the mitzvot, when it delays the mitzvah and we hold that zrizim
makdimin.....
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On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 09:56:13PM +0300, D&E-H Bannett wrote:
> From my experience, the strong -ng sound is more common with 
> the Portuguesim than the Italkim.

The original question was what was minhag Ashkenaz? Was ayin always silent
since we settled there? And if not, which sound did it have. I pointed
out that the Yiddishism "Yankef" points to a memory of an n-like ayin.

In terms of earlier versions of Ashkenazi havarah, Italians have a
causal connection that Portugese do not. (Being as the original Ashk
qehillah had a large contingent whose history ran from EY to Italy
to Ashk.) So, even if its more pronounced among Portugese, the Italian
ayin is more relevent to what I was trying to recreate.

> As to 'Aza and 'Amorah becoming Gaza and Gemorrah in English and the two 
> 'ayyins, d'gusha and rafa:  Note that Akko became Acre in English, 
> evidently  because it had the 'ayyin rather than the nGayyin.

Gaza vs Akko dates back to ancient Greek translation of Tanakh.

Anyway, there were semitic languages with a distinct ayin and ghayin, and
the belief among linguists is that they were distinct in Proto-Semitic
and merged by the time Hebrew came around. This doesn't fit belief that
Adam spoke Hebrew, but I've never seen good apologetics on the topic
of linguistics.

See also the Mesorah thread "Ngayin" that begins at
http://lists.aishdas.org/htdig.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org/2006-De
cember/000090.html
and click "Next message" for the next few.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Thu, Sep 08, 2011 at 02:41:41PM +0300, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: To take your second point a bit farther - is it possible that they were
: wired for the *opposite* of these middot and managed to utterly conquer
: their inherent nature? This would be an exceeding madreiga to reach -
: especially for Avraham Avinu, as he would have had to come to the logical
: conclusion of a God of Chesed even though he would have had the opposite
: leanings himself.

It also fits the midrashic Avraham, who starts out by leaving his
society's beliefs about idolatry, attacking his father's idols and
business, alienating and angering Nimrod -- and all to no effect anyway.
One could argue that Chazal are drawing a picture of someone who was an
ish emes (yeled emes?) to the point of tactlessness, and this awareness
of the Borei (and thus that olam chesed yibaneh) is what led Avram to
focus more and more of his attention on chessed.

Interesting to play with...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you're going through hell
mi...@aishdas.org        keep going.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Winston Churchill
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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