Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 163

Tue, 16 Aug 2011

• 1. Re: God who knows the future (T6...@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Past Yahretzeit #50 (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Past Yahretzeit #50 (Aryeh Herzig)
• 4. Re: Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach: Swimming Before Davening? (Liron Kopinsky)
• 5. Re: Characterizing our era (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: God who knows the future (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Re: God who knows the future (Micha Berger)
• 8. Interlocking the Fingers of the Right Hand with the Fingers of the Left Hand (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Interlocking the Fingers of the Right Hand with the Fingers of the Left Hand (T613K@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Interlocking the Fingers of the Right Hand with the Fingers of the Left Hand (Allan Engel)
• 11. Re: Interlocking the Fingers of the Right Hand with the Fingers of the Left Hand (Akiva Blum)
• 12. : Re: Characterizing our era (Chana Luntz)
• 13. Re: Interlocking the Fingers of the Right Hand with the Fingers of the Left Hand (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Interlocking the Fingers of the Right Hand with the Fingers of the Left Hand (Micha Berger)
• 15. gezeira on gezeira (garry)

From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" _kennethgmiller@juno.com_ 
(mailto:kennethgmil...@juno.com) 
.

I  wrote:

> Similarly, if a woman is not pregnant, or is in the  beginning
> stages of her pregnancy, it is perfectly okay to pray for  the
> gender of the child. While it is true that Hashem *does*  know
> what gender the child will end up being, He has not yet - so  to
> speak - made this decision. There is still time to pray and
>  influence this future choice of His. At some point in the
> pregnancy (40  days, IIRC) He will make that decision, based on
> whatever factors He  uses for this sort of thing, at which point
> the child's gender will not  be an undecided thing that one may
> pray for, but it will be an  accomplished fact, which no one may
> pray for (except for those tzadikim  who are allowed to pray for
> miracles, which this would be).

I was  asked why I made this distinction between the early and late stages 
of  pregnancy, and specifically where I got this shiur of "40 days". After 
all, the  Mishna (Brachos 54a) and Rambam (Brahos 10:22) simply say that this 
prayer must  not be said then the wife is pregnant. Whence this exception 
for early  pregnancy?

The source seems to be the Tur OC 230, who writes, "... but  davka after 40 
days of pregnancy. But within 40 days, his tefilah is effective."  The MB 
(230:1) explains, "Because the shape of the newborn will have been  formed; 
but witin 40 days, tefilah is effective." ......

Akiva  Miller
 

>>>>
 
Leah davened for Dina to be a girl and not a boy so that Rochel wouldn't be 
 left with just one son/one shevet (they knew there were going to be 12  
shevatim).  Somebody (Rashi?) says that's why whenever the Torah refers  to 
Dina it spells the word "na'arah" defective, with the final heh missing,  so 
it can be read "na'ar."  (Although I've noticed that strangely, the word  
"na'arah" is /always/ spelled without a final heh throughout the Chumash! --  
IIRC)  
 
I also heard or read somewhere that because Dina was supposed to be a boy  
and changed to a girl, she was infertile.  (Which I realize contradicts a  
midrash that she did have a child, "Shaul ben haCanaanis.")
 
In terms of our current knowledge of when it's too late to change the  
fetus' gender, we now know that would be as soon as the sperm and the egg  
combine.  Before we had this knowledge, davening during pregnancy might  have 
been effective, but now that we have this knowledge, we can't daven during  
pregnancy anymore because it would be asking for the impossible, like the  
forbidden prayer when one hears that there was a fire, "Please don't let it be  
my house that burned" -- a prayer to change the past, which cannot work.
 
Rarely, a baby is born who is externally one gender though his/her  ch
romosomes are of the other gender, but those children usually have messed up  or 
mixed up internal organs and cannot reproduce.  So davening to "change  the 
past" might just be effective in messing the baby up.  So the best  thing 
would be /not/ to daven for a sex change at any time in pregnancy, but  only 
to daven for a baby of the desired sex /before/ the Mrs. goes to the mikva  
or when it is definitely sure that she is not yet pregnant.  You can also  
daven during pregnancy something like this, "Please grant that this baby be  
healthy and normal, whatever sex it is, and that my /next/ baby be a boy."
 



--Toby Katz
================




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R' David Cohen:
The notion that one no longer says kaddish or otherwise commemorates the yahretzeit of on who was niftar over 50 years ago --- halacha, minhag or nonsense?
Sources?
------------------


There was a thread on this there.
KT
Joel Rich

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My family and I are Chassidim.

I always knew, since I am a child, that the source of the 50 year
"expiration" of having to say Kaddish for a Niftar is from the SheLaH
HaKadosh.  The reasoning being that the  Neshama is so high already that
saying Kaddish can not help it any more.

I am not sure whether or not this is an oral tradition.  If anyone out there
has Otzar HaChachma or some other search program I am curious to know if it
is actually written in the Shnei Luchot HaBris..

In fact, despite this SheLaH, everyone I know in all Chassidic circles does
continue with Kaddish after the 50 years.

Aryeh Herzig
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On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> I am unsurprised because the sevara seems straightforward: The
> problem with eating before davening is placing one's guf before one's
> neshamah. Presumably something parallel would apply to one's morning
> workout as well. But here a motivator is another ruchani goal -- learning.
>

What if the person had to be at work by 8:30am instead of in Kollel?
Technically he could work for less hours in the day (or even just lose his
train of thought etc.) and go in the middle of the day, but it is much
simpler for him to go earlier in the morning before davening.

What if the person had no medical issue that required swimming, but it was
the way he wanted to get exercise?

I heard once in the name of RSZA that if one is going to drink coffee before
davening he should say Mizmor Shir Chanukat Habayit l'David first, as
through that he is yotzei to some level of being mitpalel al damo through
saying "Mah Betza b'Dami..." (TTBOMK) most poskim say it is muttar to drink
coffee before davening, and I have never heard of a specific issur to not
exercise before davening (especially if someone has a minyan kavuah that
they go to). Would RSZA require the swimmer to say Mizmor Shir Chanukat
Habayit before swimming too?

Kol Tuv,
Liron
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On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 02:20:59AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: The problem with the above analysis is that it gives the impression
: that the Chofetz Chaim considered Orach Chayim to be less [something]
: than Yoreh Deah. I hsve no idea why there's no MB on YD (or EH or
: CM)...

Much of CM that applies to balebatim (chiyuv halva'ah, issur ribbis,
shevu'os, lo solin and paying workers, as well as communal gema"ch,
mitzvas tzedaqah, biqur cholim, writing a tzavah, halvayas hameis, nichum
aveilim) is in Ahavas Chessed, in the same kind of halakhah-mussar blend
he uses for Sefer CC. I think this is beshittah, that in mitzvos bein adam
lachaveiros, the CC didn't believe in a firm line between black-letter
halakhah and ve'asisa hayashar vehatov.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 8/16/2011 9:09 AM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> In terms of our current knowledge of when it's too late to change the
> fetus' gender, we now know that would be as soon as the sperm and the
> egg combine.

Although all fetuses are morphologically female until around 40 days, 
which is when the body begins to diverge.  If the fetus is male, a rush 
of androgens at that point cause it to change.  There are cases of 
androgen insensitivity syndrome, where the body doesn't react to these 
hormones and the child is born looking female, despite being genetically 
male.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation

Lisa

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 03:52:13AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: The source seems to be the Tur OC 230, who writes, "... but davka after
: 40 days of pregnancy. But within 40 days, his tefilah is effective." The
: MB (230:1) explains, "Because the shape of the newborn will have been
: formed; but witin 40 days, tefilah is effective."
...
: I don't remember R' David Riceman mentioning it in this discussion,
: but there's a principle which would seem to support at least some of his
: position. "Amar Rabi Yitzchak: Bracha only comes on something which is
: hidden from the eye." (Bava Metzia 42a) As long as no one *knows* the
: child's gender, it can still be changed for the better. Why should it
: matter that this is usually determined at a certain stage in the fetus'
: developement, if no one knows?

It's like Schroedinger's Cat. <grin>
(For those who want an explanation, see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat>)

The fetus knows. Not only is 40 days when the gender is determined,
but also when neshamah notzerah. (Menachos 99b; I am quoting the Aramaic
rather than paraphrasing, because I do not want to blur what happens at
40 days with what happens at birth.) There is now some aspect of the soul
which knows its own gender, and therefore while it's "ne'elam min ha'ayin"
in the literal sense -- fetuses don't see -- there is one neshamah that
does know the baby's gender.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

 From http://www.dailyhalacha.com/display.asp

The Zohar Ha'kadosh, in Vayikra (p. 24), writes that when a harsh 
judgment is issued against a person, Heaven forbid, his fingers will 
unwittingly begin moving, and the fingers of his two hands will 
become interlocked. As interlocking hands is a sign of harsh 
judgment, it is improper for a person to intentionally hold his hands 
in this position. The Ben Ish Hai (Rav Yosef Haim of Baghdad, 
1833-1909), in Parashat Pinhas (18), cites this Halacha in the name 
of the Arizal (Rav Yishak Luria of Safed, 1534-1572). This is 
mentioned in other sources, as well, including the Sefer Ha'hasidim 
(by Rabbenu Yehuda Ha'hasid, Germany, d. 1217) and the Kaf Ha'haim 
(Rav Yaakob Haim Sofer, Baghdad-Israel, 1870-1939). Thus, while it is 
permissible to place one hand on top of the other, one should not 
interlock the fingers of the two hands.

The Ben Ish Hai goes even further, writing that one should never 
place his hands behind his back, and should rather keep them in front 
of him at all times. Indeed, there are different kinds of spiritual 
powers associated with the positioning of one's hands and fingers, as 
Rabbenu Bahya discusses at length.

The Sefer Hazechira mentions that those who are accustomed to 
interlocking their fingers run the risk of experiencing extreme 
anxiety, Heaven forbid.

There are many warnings of this kind that we hear as children, and 
many people are unable to distinguish between those that stem from 
folklore and superstition, and those which have a clear basis in 
Jewish tradition. When it comes to interlocking fingers, this is a 
well-documented warning that originates already from the Zohar and 
the teachings of the Arizal.

Summary: According to Kabbalistic tradition, one should not merge his 
hands together such that the fingers of the two hands interlock. 
According to some sources, one should also refrain from placing his 
hands behind his back.

----------
Given that I know almost nothing about kabbala, I really do not know 
what to make of the above.  Anyone care to enlighten me?

For the record, in "ancient" times when I was in kindergarten through 
at least second grade (IIRC)  we were required to sit with our hands 
folded in front of us on our desks. YL
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In a message dated 8/16/2011, llev...@stevens.edu writes:

The  Zohar Ha?kadosh, in Vayikra (p. 24), writes that when a harsh judgment 
is  issued against a person, Heaven forbid, his fingers will unwittingly 
begin  moving, and the fingers of his two hands will become interlocked. As  
interlocking hands is a sign of harsh judgment, it is improper for a person 
to  intentionally hold his hands in this position.....
 

Summary:  According to Kabbalistic tradition, one should not merge his 
hands together  such that the fingers of the two hands interlock. According to 
some sources,  one should also refrain from placing his hands behind his 
back. 
 
____________________________________
Given that I know almost nothing about kabbala, I really do not know what 
to  make of the above.  Anyone care to enlighten me?  
 
>>>>>
 
If you don't worry about kabbalah you don't have to worry about  interloc
king your fingers.  It's like sheidim, if  you don't believe  in them and 
don't worry about them they have little or no power over  you.  There are a lot 
of things in the Zohar that most people don't worry  about.  If you are not 
Sefardi and not chassidish, leave it  alone. 
 

--Toby Katz
================




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If this summary is correct, there appears to be no basis for this
prohibition from the Torah, Mishna or Gemoro.

Isn't it forbidden to create new halochos?

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

>  From http://www.dailyhalacha.com/display.asp
>
> The Ben Ish Hai (Rav Yosef Haim of Baghdad, 1833-1909), in Parashat Pinhas
> (18), cites this Halacha in the name of the Arizal.
>
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From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org
[mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Prof. Levine
Sent: Tuesday 16 August 2011 7:49 PM



  _____  

Given that I know almost nothing about kabbala, I really do not know what to
make of the above.  Anyone care to enlighten me?  



Please take a close look at this picture of Rav Elyashiv:
http://cache.bhol-forums.co.il/upload0108/200816_1020210930_1.JPG (from
http://www.bhol.co.il/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=2341284
<http://www.bhol.co.il/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=2341284&;forum_id=771>
&forum_id=771)

 

 

Akiva

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> R' Micha Berger wrote:
> 
> This potential post-acharonic period lacks a similar book. While
> the MB is rising to that role, it's only one of 4 Turim.

I don't even see this - ie that the MB is rising to the role.  

First of all, I just don't see anybody getting the Lubavitchers to follow
the MB over the Shulchan Aruch HaRav any time soon.  And similarly with
other Chassidim, who follow the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, unless they prefer to
follow the Kitzer.

And there are still enough pockets around in YU and Israel that prefer the
Aruch HaShulchan for the MB to really be considered so overwhelmingly
dominant, even in the areas that it covers.

But more tellingly is the fact that a good portion of the MB is just not
that relevant to us today.  Why?  A third of the MB covers hilchos shabbas,
and another chunk of it is on hilchos yom tov.  But the reality of the
advent of modern technology is that a large number of the questions that
trouble us today vis a vis hilchos shabbas and yom tov are not even hinted
at in the MB.  Things like crockpots and time switches and LEDs and
electronic circuits and automatic sensors and disposable packaging and the
list goes on and on.

That means that today, when people are learning for the rabbanut smicha
exams on hilchos shabbas (and surely that should be reasonable test of what
is regarded today as key halachic knowledge) they go from the Shulchan Aruch
and nosei kelim (with at most a cursory look at what the MB says) to the
various people who discuss these issues and how to apply hilchos shabbas to
modern day scenarios - RSZA, Rav Moshe, the Chazon Ish, ROY - because the MB
just doesn't speak to these issues at all.

So I struggle to see how the MB can be considered to be rising to the role
of a modern Shulchan Aruch, when already it is desperately out of date vis a
vis large chunks of the areas that it covers.

Regards

Chana

On 16/08/2011 1:22 PM, Allan Engel wrote:
> If this summary is correct, there appears to be no basis for this prohibition from the Torah, Mishna or Gemoro.
>
> Isn't it forbidden to create new halochos?

So the ban on smoking is...smoke?


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 01:57:19PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> So the ban on smoking is...smoke?

No, a pesaq based on a pre-existing deOraisa and given current knowledge
about how hard it is to kick the habit once started, and how risky it
is accumulatively if one ch"v doesn't.

I would instead have asked if RAEngel eats qitniyos on Pesach. Or, if he
is Sepharadi (despite his surname), does he eat fish with milk?

There are many prohibitions that post-date chazal, on the minhag level.
We may not pasqen out of the Zohar (although those who don't wear tefillin
on ch"m might be), but the patterns used for handwashing neigl vasr and
before hamotzi are pretty widely observed; albeit as minhag.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

I know this is elementary, but....
If I use a plate to eat cold chicken, and then wash it, I can't use that 
plate for cold cheese.

Isn't this at least one double gezeira (gezeira protecting another gezeira?)



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