Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 153

Tue, 09 Aug 2011

• 1. Re: Havdalah On Wine Motza'ei Shabbos Chazon (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 2. Re: Havdalah On Wine Motza'ei Shabbos Chazon (T6...@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Do Women Need To Hear Eicha? (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Kehunat Shem (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Havdalah On Wine Motza'ei Shabbos Chazon (Gershon Dubin)
• 6. Re: Havdalah On Wine Motza'ei Shabbos Chazon (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: cruelty to animals (T6...@aol.com)
• 8. Re: Yeridas Ha'Doros (T6...@aol.com)
• 9. Re: Havdalah On Wine Motza'ei Shabbos Chazon (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Cruetly to animals and shabbat (garry)
• 11. Re: Yeridas Ha'Doros (Micha Berger)
• 12. The Universal Relevance of Tisha B'Av (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: shabbas//mishum eiva, etc??? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: shabbas//mishum eiva, etc??? (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: shabbas//mishum eiva, etc??? (Micha Berger)
• 16. hillel/shammai, etc.....list please (rules/exceptions (Harvey Benton)

Rav Elyashiv was quoted as saying that if there is no boy to drink the wine of Havdala during the nine days, do not give it to a girl.

R' Zev Sero explained:

> Presumably because it's a safek whether women are obligated in
> havdalah, which is why a woman can't be motzi a man.  If women are
> exempt, then girls are not b'not chinuch, and if she drinks it
> then nobody is yotzei, even if one holds that a katan ben chinuch
> is enough a part of the mitzvah to be motzi people by drinking it.

I suspect this is in error.

Let's back up a minute, and ask why anyone needs to drink the wine at all?
The answer has nothing to do with Havdala, but is because of the Hagafen.
And this is why the Mishneh Brurah (if I recall correctly) stipulates that
the boy needs to be too young for chinuch of aveilus on Yerushalayim
(because otherwise we must *not* give him the wine), yet he does need to be
old enough for chinuch on Brachos (because otherwise, giving him the wine
doesn't solve any problems).

Therefore, I suspect that Rav Elyashiv's reasoning has to do with the
practice of women to specifically avoid drinking the havdala wine. (A
lengthy article on this practice (and about women and havdala in general),
by R' Ari Zivotofsky, can be found at www.hakirah.org/Vo
l%2010%20Zivotofsky.pdf)

Akiva Miller

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From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
On 8/5/2011 6:08 AM,  Prof. Levine wrote:
>   From  http://revach.net/article.php?id=602
>
> If there is no boy, points  out Rav Elyashiv, do not give it to a  girl.

Why?

Lisa






>>>>
 
Does anyone know the source of the belief (folk belief?) that if a girl  
drinks the wine from havdalah, she will grow a moustache?
 
And in general there seems to be a widespread custom for women to avoid  
making havdalah -- where there is no such hakpada against women making kiddush 
 for themselves.  My mother amu'sh for example, and numerous other  women I 
know who live alone, will go to a neighbor for havdalah or have one of  her 
grandsons come in and make havdalah for her, but won't make havdalah for  
herself -- although she has no hesitation about making kiddush for  herself.  
My Lub next door neighbor comes to my house for havdalah when her  husband 
is out of town, and again, she has no problem making kiddush for  herself.   
It's something I've seen all my life but I don't know the  reason.
 
And of course I have /never/ seen anyone give a girl wine from havdalah,  
Nine Days or any other time.  The only "reason" I've ever heard was that  she 
would grow a moustache.   I take the moustache to be a symbol of  some kind 
of masculinity of body, mind or spirit that is inherent in  havdalah.  But 
what is the source?
 

--Toby  Katz
================




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Prof. Levine quoted Rav Moshe Shternbuch:

> Since reading Eicha is part of the mitzva of mourning the Bais
> HaMikdash it is important for both men and women to understand
> the general meaning of Eicha. If you just read it without any 
> understanding you haven't accomplished the goal. Rav Shternbuch 
> recommends to use a readily available translation. A woman who 
> doesn't understand anything at all and does not have access to a 
> translation, need not go through the motions of reading Eicha.

I am not aware of any similar requirement to understand the general meaning of Esther. If one reads it without any understanding, I thought he *is* yotzay.

A man who doesn't understand anything at all and does not have access to a
translation, still needs to go through the motions of reading Esther. Or am
I mistaken?

And if I am correct, why would Rav Shternbuch be stricter on Eicha than on Esther?

Akiva Miller

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On 8/08/2011 6:41 AM, Ilana Koehler wrote:
> How did Abraham get the Kehuna from Shem?

He didn't.  Where did you see that Avraham was ever a kohen?

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

From: T6...@aol.com
<<And in general there seems to be a widespread custom for women to
avoid making havdalah -- where there is no such hakpada against women
making kiddush for themselves.	My mother amu'sh for example, and numerous
other women I know who live alone, will go to a neighbor for havdalah or
have one of her grandsons come in and make havdalah for her, but won't make
havdalah for herself -- although she has no hesitation about making kiddush
for herself.  My Lub next door neighbor comes to my house for havdalah when
her husband is out of town, and again, she has no problem making kiddush
for herself.   It's something I've seen all my life but I don't know the
reason.>> Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 296:8.  Mishna Berura's
conclusion is that she should preferably hear from men, as the Rama says,
but if that's not possible she should make havdala herself and drink the
wine. No mention of facial foliage.  Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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On 7/08/2011 11:01 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> When one bentches al hakos, does the person who drinks the wine have to
> be one of those bentching with the zimun?

Yes.  "Echad min hamesubim", not a bystander.

> I wonder: if the kos is part of havdalah, why do we smell the besamim and
> use the neir before continuing havdalah, but wait between the berakhah
> and drinking the wine?

Because one can't drink before havdalah, so the havdalah is a necessary
preparation and not a hefsek.


On 8/08/2011 10:58 AM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> Rav Elyashiv was quoted as saying that if there is no boy to drink
> the wine of Havdala during the nine days, do not give it to a girl.

> R' Zev Sero explained:
>> Presumably because it's a safek whether women are obligated in
>> havdalah, which is why a woman can't be motzi a man.  If women are
>> exempt, then girls are not b'not chinuch, and if she drinks it
>> then nobody is yotzei, even if one holds that a katan ben chinuch
>> is enough a part of the mitzvah to be motzi people by drinking it.

> I suspect this is in error.
> Let's back up a minute, and ask why anyone needs to drink the wine at all?
> The answer has nothing to do with Havdala, but is because of the Hagafen.

Not true.  For the bracha one need only take a sip; but for kiddush or
havdalah the person who drinks must drink a cheekful (rov revi'is).
Drinking the kos is an inherent part of the mitzvah.  The mavdil himself
need not drink it, but someone has to, and that someone has to be part of
the mitzvah.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

 
From: Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com>
>> if it is  assur to allow cruelty to animals (rebbe suffere for 13/7?) 
years for  not
telling a calf/kid a kind word), then why are we allowed to leave a  fallen 
animal
in a bor, all shabbas to suffer (eg, broken bones, etc)
or  are there exceptions, to this rule?
are there chilul hashem issues also  involved, eg, if goyim walk by and see 
us
running home to chulent, while a  donkey or horse brays in pain?? <<
hb
 


>>>>
 
 
I believe you would be allowed to go and tell a goy that there is a fallen  
animal in pain and that you can't do anything right now because it is your  
Sabbath, but you are concerned about the animal.  If the goy then takes it  
upon himself to act, well and good, and if not, he can hardly accuse the 
Jew of  being more callous to the animal's suffering than he is.
 

--Toby Katz
================




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From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" _kennethgmiller@juno.com_ 
(mailto:kennethgmil...@juno.com) 


>>  In short: Is yeridas hadoros a subjective opinion or is it objective 
reality?  <<

Akiva Miller

 
>>>>>
 
It is an objective reality,  but only /in general/.  In a few  exceptional 
cases, there are individuals in later generations who achieve such  
greatness that they are considered throwbacks to earlier  generations.   It was for 
exactly that reason that the Vilna Gaon was  given the appellation "Gaon" by 
a generation that viewed him as a throwback to  the era of the Gaonim.  
 
(Of course, subsequently, we have begun to use the word "gaon" much  more 
loosely, as a synonym for "genius" -- and a "gaon" nowadays is  any  
precocious child or even somebody who is just a little bit smarter  than his peers 
-- so even the word "gaon" has seen a yeridas hadoros!)
 

--Toby  Katz
================




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RAZZ has a longer essay than that in the OU's Jewish Action
<http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%2010%20Zivotofsky.pdf> has thirteen pages
on the subject of "Wine from Havdalah, Women and Beards".

-Micha

On 8/8/2011 7:08 AM, R.Sero <z...@sero.name>
>> if it is assur to allow cruelty to animals (rebbe suffere for 13/7?) years for not
>> telling a calf/kid a kind word), then why are we allowed to leave a fallen animal
>> in a bor, all shabbas to suffer (eg, broken bones, etc)

> What choice do we have?  What heter is there to move it?

>> are there chilul hashem issues also involved, eg, if goyim walk by and see us
>> running home to chulent, while a donkey or horse brays in pain??

> How is that a mattir for chilul shabbos?  If we start doing averos because
> of what the goyim will think, there goes the entire Torah.

So we don't rescue nachriim's lives on Shabbos?

On Sun, Aug 07, 2011 at 02:12:44PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: > ... the gemara shabbos 112b: "if the early generations are
: > angels then we are mere humans, and if they are humans we are
: > donkeys...." it would seem that this principle has always
: > been known.

: I agree that this principle seems to have always been known. But I
: *don't* know that this principle proves anything at all. It is natural
: for students to look up to their teachers, and for the teachers to look
: up to their gedolim. And it is natural for children to look up to their
: parents, and for the parents to look up to the grandparents. But this
: is only a snapshot of one particular moment in time. Wait 20-30 years,
: and this generation will mature, and occupy the shoes of the previous
: generation, and what makes us think that they won't fill them just as
: well? Nothing but nostalgia.

I saved this post for today, when writing about the loss of the
generations doesn't seem entirely off-topic. (Clue to and future google
readers, today is 9 beAv.)

The gemara that R' Elie Ginsparg quoted (Shabbos 112b), is interestingly a
quote by R' Zeira of Rava bar Zimuna. An auspicious name for the topic. R'
Zeira was a contemporary of Rav Yehudah. But in any case, R' Zeira is
commenting on the difference between R' Yochanan drawing a conclusion
from tannaim, or him doing so from Chizqiyah, a contemporary. So R'
Zeira is contrasting his rabbeim with THEIR rabbeim. This is after
"[w]ait 20-30 years, and this generation will mature, and occupy the
shoes of the previous generation."


R' Papa asks (Berakhos 20a) why Hashem did miracles for earlier tzadiqim
but not for them. He invokes the nissim in the days of R' Yehudah. In
terms of learning, he says his own generation was stronger -- R' Yehudah's
generation focused on Neziqin, and they learned all 6 sedarim, and R'
Yehudah himself couldn't explain why a certain case was tamei, and R'
Pappa's generation had 13 ways to learn mes' Uqtzin. Abayei answers that
nisqatnu hadoros is about mesiras nefesh, not knowledge.

And two reasons why this isn't be nostalgia


1- There is clear-eyed recognition that the earlier generation was vastly
inferior in a different way.

2- One of the protagonists is Abayei, and therefore he himself WAS the
leadership R' Papa grew up with.

In terms of timing, we don't know who Rav Yehudah is -- there are three,
two of whom lived before Abayei. And that's assuming we stand on the use
of the title "Rav" in the gemara and not take it to be speaking of Rabbi
Yehudah haNasi. I personally lean toward this understanding, because
R' Papa asks "mai shena *rishonim*", which would indicate to my ear a
different era. The two possible Rav Yehudah's aren't really a new era.

R' Yehudah haNasi's grandson was niftar in the middle of the 3rd
century. The next R' Yehudah (and the second R' Yehudah Nesi'ah) passed
in or slightly before 320. Abayei was niftar in 339, and R' Papa in
371 or 375.

So, either:
Abayei was contrasting the leadership of his younger years against someone
(R' Yehudah haNasi or Rav Yehudah Nesi'ah I) who was niftar before Abayei
was born or at least before he could have been aware of their leadership.
Nostalgia isn't playing *down* what one remembers of their youth.

Or, 
Abayei was talking about himself, in contrast to his own predecessor.
(Unless you think he was disparaging Rava and R' Hillel, the nasi of
calendrical fame.) There is no generation of amoraim between R' Yehudah
III and Abayei. The statement about learning all 6 sedarim with multiple
interpretations and opinions sounds like a description of Abayei veRava,
the two who started the project that ended up being Talmud Bavli.

But in any case, it makes the statement autobiographical; more about how
his own mesiras nefesh didn't measure up to his rebbe's than one needs
nostalgia to invoke.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

 From http://www.torah.org/features/pending/relevance.html

In 19th century Germany, some reformers argued that the new civil 
rights granted to Jews had made Tisha B'Av outdated. In their view, 
the primary reason for the mourning for the Temple and Zion was the 
loss of our civil rights; thus, now that some of our civil rights 
were being restored in the new Germany, there was no longer any 
reason to mourn. In the second half of the 20th century, there were 
Zionists who argued that since we have a Jewish state, Tisha B'Av 
should be abolished. In their view, the primary reason for the 
mourning for the Temple and Zion was the loss of our political 
sovereignty; thus, now that we have our own country, flag, and army 
like all the other nations, there is no longer any reason to mourn.

In an article written in 1855, Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch describes 
the attempt of one "modern" rabbi to abolish Tisha B'Av:

Rabbi Hirsch then observes: "The persecuted, despised, misrepresented 
Jewish people is not the most unfortunate on earth, the one most in 
need of deliverance on earth. The whole earth is thirsting for 
deliverance. Sorrow and misery in hovels and palaces, in cities and 
states, arouse messianic yearnings in every heart. It is not only the 
Jewish people whose redemption depends upon the rebuilding of Zion, 
and surely, their confident expectation that the redemption will 
indeed come about is not the least valuable dowry which the Jew 
brings with him into the community of nations."

Please see the above URL for the rest of this article.
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On Sun, Aug 07, 2011 at 10:30:43PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Eivah is pikuach nefesh; about 1800 or so, when it became clear that the
> excuses which had stood us in good stead for 2000 years or more were no
> longer going to be accepted, we suddenly find the first mention of such
> a heter....

I do not know what specific use of "mishum eivah" RZS is referring to
as bring modern. Last time around this topic, Rn Chana Luntz pointed us
to the the Encyc Talmudit, noting its entry on "eivah" has 4 sections:
husband and wife, father and son, bein adam lachaveiro in general,
and between Yehudi and nachri. The existence of the first four categories
should prove that mishum eivah isn't simply an instance of piquach nefesh,
and the examples in the fourth section well predate 1800.

(I gave a similar response to dispell the same claim by RZS made on
Areivim last Feb.)

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 9/08/2011 2:56 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> I do not know what specific use of "mishum eivah" RZS is referring to
> as bring modern.

The heter to break shabbos in order to save a nochri did not exist until
about 1800.  The gemara forbids it, and so do all the rishonim and
achronim.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On Tue, Aug 09, 2011 at 04:42:49PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 9/08/2011 2:56 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> I do not know what specific use of "mishum eivah" RZS is referring to
>> as bring modern.

> The heter to break shabbos in order to save a nochri did not exist until
> about 1800...

See AZ 26a, R' Yosef says that a bas Yisrael may midwife for a nachris
besekhar -- mishum eivah. Abaye disagrees on the metzius of whether or
not this is a likely cause of eivah, not on the halachic concept.

But in any case, I don't think the idea is acharonic.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

does someone have a list for me please on the rules for following
talmudic tannaim and amoraim shitas?, eg rav, shmuel, abayee/ravva, 

etc??
a list (including exceptions, times now, times in future (moshiach)
would be helpful....
thanks much
hb
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