Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 152

Mon, 08 Aug 2011

• 1. Re: A God who knows the future (Hankman)
• 2. Re: "God who knows the future" (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: God who knows the future (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Havdalah On Wine Motza'ei Shabbos Chazon (Lisa Liel)
• 5. cruelty to animals...... (Harvey Benton)
• 6. Re: Havdalah On Wine Motza'ei Shabbos Chazon (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: cruelty to animals...... (Zev Sero)
• 8. Yeridas Ha'Doros (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. Re: cruelty to animals...... (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Havdalah On Wine Motza'ei Shabbos Chazon (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: "God who knows the future" (Arie Folger)
• 12. shabbas//mishum eiva, etc??? (Harvey Benton)
• 13. Halachically Speaking - Zecher L?Churban (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Re: shabbas//mishum eiva, etc??? (Zev Sero)
• 15. Kehunat Shem (Ilana Koehler)
• 16. Do Women Need To Hear Eicha? (Prof. Levine)

RMB wrote:

That weird world may be ours. There are theories of quantum gravity,
the possible unification of Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity,
in which space is quantized. The granularity is very small (Planck
length is 1.6 * 10^-35 meter), but as long as it's not infintesimal,
it avoids Xeno's paradox.

CM notes:

At this point in time from the very little I have read about it, it is
still only a (incomplete) theory with promise but not yet taken as a
reality.  This is undoubtedly why you inserted the word "may." If this
theory gets fully worked out and proves to be the correct (or at least
better) depiction of our world what you say should follow.

RMB wrote:

... and C infintesimal points
along its length.


CM notes:

I think this would also be true for any finite line segment as well.

It is always interesting to read your speculations G-d and infinity.

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster

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On Thu, Aug 04, 2011 at 06:47:42PM -0400, T6...@aol.com continued her
exhange with RDR:
:>> "Tzafui" absolutely does mean  foreknowledge.>>

:> So you're saying Rashi and the Bartenura are  wrong?

: I don't know, how do they translate "Hakol tzafui vehareshus  nesunah"? 

The Bartunra ad loc (Avos 3:15) says that R' Aqiva is saying "Everything
a person does bechadrei chadarim is revealed before Him."

The Rambam is the one who adds that this also include what the person
will do, and thus raising the question. The Tosafos Yom Tov follows the
Rambam, by name. GGe add on Avos 5:6 "that Knowledge does not compell the
things that are possible. And behold all the nissim are teluyim veomedim
in the possibility of bechirach which is the control of man. For all
the nissim are for people." Then he invokes the Rambam's "answer" that
"lo Machshevosei machsevoseikhem".

The Tif'eres Yisrael also follow the Rambam, but translates "tzafui"
as literally referring to seeing the present. He says "That which the
tana says 'hekol tzafui' and didn't say 'hakol yadua', because on all
knowledge there is shaikhus to past and future, but the word 'tafui'
is that He sees the thing like the present before Him [and this is
the intent of the Rambam...]"

Those are all the mefarshei hamishnah on the BI CD who have the words
"hakol tzafui" in them, although not all 6 relevent quotes.


Point being, just because the Rambam's peshat gained popularity doesn't
mean it's the only peshat. As I said, it's dangerous in hashkafah
to assume that anyone speaking before the revelation of Tzimtzum
necessarily is espousing an opinion from within the range we today
consider acceptable.

Between the Ari, the Ramchal, the Besh"t and the Gra, we developed a
particular subset of the rishonim's viewpoints to the exclusion of others.

Just because something seems outlandish, and totally at odds with
everything you learned since Morah Miriam's Pre-1A class, doesn't mean
it ain't so.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Garry wrote:
> Let's say I'm in a comic book world, and Lex Luther or someone
> puts a copy of tomorrow's newspaper on my desk. (with a note saying
> "don't open until tomorrow")  I don't see how that has any effect
> on my actions or responsibilities today.  What I will do is already
> printed in the newspaper, but how are my choices (that's what we're
> talking about, isn't it? Choices?)  different or less free today
> because the newspaper is lying on my desk?

OHHH! You *don't* see how G-d's knowledge affects us! Neither do I!

For some reason, I totally misunderstood your question. I thought you were
coming from the other direction. I thought you were trying to understand
the distinction, when actually, you understand the distinction so well
that you are surprised that other people don't get it.

May I suggest that your problem is that you are looking at it
logically. Logically, you are totally correct -- regardless of whether
I actually read tomorrow's newspaper, I can still choose whatever I want.

But this isn't a logical point -- it is an emotional one. The newspaper is
sitting there, and in that newspaper is reliable documentation of things
that I have not yet done. It isn't logical, but I am struck with terror
by the situation. Sure, I may FEEL like I still have free choice, but do
I really? I can choose to turn left, or to turn right, and I can change
my mind a thousand times, but ultimately, I WILL do what it says in the
paper. Is that free choice, or is it merely an *illusion* of free choice?

Close your eyes, and REALLY imagine that the newspaper is sitting there
on your desk. Don't think with your brain, but feel it in your heart. Do
you still have free choice? You *will* ultimately choose whether to go
right or left, but was that choice really free, or were you forced to do
that, by some force that you can't even feel, a force that you wouldn't
even be aware of were it not for the newspaper sitting there.

If this thought experiment doesn't help you to see the other point of
view, then take comfort in the fact that your only loss is that you
do not understand the *mistake*. We know that we really do have free
choice, even in spite of HaShem's knowledge. Much better to understand
the correct view, than to understand the incorrect one.

Akiva Miller

On 8/5/2011 6:08 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>   From http://revach.net/article.php?id=602
>
> If there is no boy, points out Rav Elyashiv, do not give it to a girl.

Why?

Lisa

if it is assur to allow cruelty to animals (rebbe suffere for 13/7?) years for not
telling a calf/kid a kind word), then why are we allowed to leave a fallen animal
in a bor, all shabbas to suffer (eg, broken bones, etc)
or are there exceptions, to this rule?
are there chilul hashem issues also involved, eg, if goyim walk by and see us
running home to chulent, while a donkey or horse brays in pain??
hb
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On 7/08/2011 1:13 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 8/5/2011 6:08 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> From http://revach.net/article.php?id=602
>>
>> If there is no boy, points out Rav Elyashiv, do not give it to a girl.
>
> Why?

Presumably because it's a safek whether women are obligated in havdalah,
which is why a woman can't be motzi a man.  If women are exempt, then
girls are not b'not chinuch, and if she drinks it then nobody is yotzei,
even if one holds that a katan ben chinuch is enough a part of the
mitzvah to be motzi people by drinking it.


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On 7/08/2011 2:34 AM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> if it is assur to allow cruelty to animals (rebbe suffere for 13/7?) years for not
> telling a calf/kid a kind word), then why are we allowed to leave a fallen animal
> in a bor, all shabbas to suffer (eg, broken bones, etc)

What choice do we have?  What heter is there to move it?


> are there chilul hashem issues also involved, eg, if goyim walk by and see us
> running home to chulent, while a donkey or horse brays in pain??

How is that a mattir for chilul shabbos?  If we start doing averos because
of what the goyim will think, there goes the entire Torah.


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

My son-in-law was learning Rav Dessler's "Strive For Truth", and got very
interested in the chapter about the Bechirah Point. This led to our
discussing the idea that the tzadikim of recent generations are not nearly
as great as the tzadikim of long ago, and that the reshaim of recent
generations are not as evil as the ancient reshaim either.

Then we started wondering, and looking for examples, and came up empty-handed, and so I'm turning to the chevra for help.

Can anyone offer any stories which illustrate, for example, the ways in
which Avraham Avinu or Rav Yehudah Hanasi was a bigger tzaddik than Rav
Moshe Feinstein? Can anyone demonstrate how Nimrod or Paro was a bigger
rasha than Hitler?

We could not come up with any evidence. For all those people, we are
accustomed to speak in superlatives, and it is very difficult to show how
one infinity is larger than another infinity. For example, granted that
Avraham was willing to enter Nimrod's furnace; but was that a bigger
kiddush Hashem than the willingness of the kedoshim who entered Hitler's
furnaces?

The best answer we could come up with is that our mitzvos tend to be done
out of rote rather than dedication, and our sins tend to be done out of
laziness rather than evilness. But -- especially if we're talking about
average people -- who's to say that this is more true nowadays than 2000
years ago?

I looked around in archives on this topic, and found it discussed as far back as 1998, in Avodah 1:46, where R' Elie Ginsparg wrote:

> ... the gemara shabbos 112b: "if the early generations are
> angels then we are mere humans, and if they are humans we are
> donkeys...." it would seem that this principle has always
> been known.

I agree that this principle seems to have always been known. But I *don't*
know that this principle proves anything at all. It is natural for students
to look up to their teachers, and for the teachers to look up to their
gedolim. And it is natural for children to look up to their parents, and
for the parents to look up to the grandparents. But this is only a snapshot
of one particular moment in time. Wait 20-30 years, and this generation
will mature, and occupy the shoes of the previous generation, and what
makes us think that they won't fill them just as well? Nothing but
nostalgia.

We cried when the Chofetz Chaim passed on, "Who will fill his shoes? We are
like orphans!" And indeed, for a while we were. But surely Rav Ahron Kotler
and the Satmar Rov took the reins and adopted us. We cried again when we
lost them, and justifiably so. But haven't Rav SZ Auerbach and Rav YS
Elyashiv and many others risen to the challenge?

Back in 1999, in Avodah 2:195, R' Yosef G. Bechhofer wrote:

> To the Yeshiva-ensconced Ben Torah, who knows that R' Moshe
> Feinstein went through "gantz" Shulchan Aruch well over a
> hundred times, while few of us have gone through it once, who
> know that R' Pinchos Hirschprung could recite Shas, Rashi,
> Tosafoss & Rosh by heart, as if reading from the page suspended
> in front of him in midair, while most of us b'koshi have gone
> through Shas once or twice with the Daf Yomi cycle, who have sat
> back awestruck by the keenness of the Chazon Ish's Kuntres Yud
> ches Sha'os and been dazzled by RSZ Auerbach's teshuvos on
> electricity and electronics - ALL IN THE LAST GENERATION! -
> and realize that they regarded their Rabbeim as infinitely
> greater than themeselves, and so on and so forth back through
> the ages - must lead inevitably and conclusively to the
> realization of yeridas ha'doros.

I'm not saying he is wrong. I just don't see any evidence for it, other
than the humility and respect that a student properly has for his teachers.
And that doesn't tell us anything about the objective facts.

In short: Is yeridas hadoros a subjective opinion or is it objective reality?

Akiva Miller

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On Sun, Aug 07, 2011 at 09:05:34AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> telling a calf/kid a kind word), then why are we allowed to leave a fallen animal
>> in a bor, all shabbas to suffer (eg, broken bones, etc)

> What choice do we have?  What heter is there to move it?

We allow violation of a shevus for tza'ar ba'alei chaim, e.g. milking
cows in a way that the milk can't be used.

If here the problem is karmelis, which is also derabbanan, one might
make a similar argument.

>> are there chilul hashem issues also involved, eg, if goyim walk by and see us
>> running home to chulent, while a donkey or horse brays in pain??

> How is that a mattir for chilul shabbos?  If we start doing averos because
> of what the goyim will think, there goes the entire Torah.

Or at least the dinim derabbanan.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 7/08/2011 1:13 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 8/5/2011 6:08 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> From http://revach.net/article.php?id=602
>> If there is no boy, points out Rav Elyashiv, do not give it to a girl.

> Why?

To which RZS replied at 9:04am EDT:
> Presumably because it's a safek whether women are obligated in havdalah,
> which is why a woman can't be motzi a man...

When one bentches al hakos, does the person who drinks the wine have to
be one of those bentching with the zimun?

What I'm asking is whether mavdilin al hakos makes the kos part of the
havdalah, or a context for saying it.

I wonder: if the kos is part of havdalah, why do we smell the besamim and
use the neir before continuing havdalah, but wait between the berakhah
and drinking the wine?

But if it is not part of havdalah, there is no reason to insure that
the person drinking the wine is mechuyeves in havdalah.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R'nTK wrote:
> TK: The sixth one, "all the words of the Nevi'im  are true."  How can
> the Nevi'im know the future if Hashem Himself doesn't  know the
> future?

Actually, who says that the prophets knew the future? The overwhelming
majority of prophecies are not predicting the future. On the contrary,
they are revealing (or more correctly: emphasizing) a likely future if
people do not change their ways. In other words, almost all prophetic
knowledge is contingent. (That, of course, puts Avraham's prophecy
where he was revealed about 400 years of estrangement and enslavement
in stark contrast and begs the question why that prophecy is different
from all others.)

Ah, but I sense some will tell me that David prophesied about events
400+ years later, namely the destruction of the First Beit haMiqdash
and the eventual return to Tsiyon. But ... you surely know that no
less than Rav and Rabbi Yo'hanan taught that the final redactor of
Tehillim was not David, but Ezra, and several commentaries have thus
understood various psalms as having been composed hundreds of years
after David passed away. Ps. 137 is a nice case in point, but Ps. 46
is another one (see Ibn Ezra there IIRC).

In conclusion, I see no reason to think that prophecy requires Divine
foreknowledge of all events. You and I may not feel well with Ralbag's
view, but you have not disproved it.

Kol tuv,

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Rabbi, wie stehen Sie zur Ein?scherung?
* Biblical Advice for the Internet Age iii
* Speaking To Your Kids About Personal Safety
* Chance Favors the Concentration of Wealth, Study Shows - What's
Torah's Alternative?
* Biblical Advice for the Internet Age ii
* The Ecologically Correct Funeral
* The Goodly Tents of Jacob
* Biblical Advice for the Internet Age

could someone please explain to me the process of how and why and when
the chachamim are allowed to enact, or go around, clear midoraisa guidelines???
eg, mishum eiva saving an aino""yehudi, etc, {or is that not a midoraisa???};?
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here to download Volume 7 - Zecher L'Churban.

The following is one selection from this publication.

Pesukim as Lyrics

The Gemorah in Sanhedrin113 says one is not allowed to use words of 
Shir Hashirim
for a song. Rashi explains that this issur applies to all pesukim.114 
The reason is because
using the words of the Torah for his own enjoyment is a lack of 
proper kedusha.115 One
who wishes to praise Hashem may sing the lyrics of the Torah.116 A 
posuk that is a
nusach of davening may be sung by adding a tune to it. However, 
singing a certain posuk
because you like the niggun is forbidden.117

The Magen Avraham118 says when singing songs on Shabbos one should only sing
songs which were composed especially for seudas Shabbos (and not other words of
chazal).119 However, many poskim say the Magen Avraham only forbids 
other songs if
they will be sung in a frivolous manner, and if they are used to 
praise Hashem then
singing them is permitted.120

One may sing a song containing the name of Hashem if instead of saying the real
name he says "Hashem."121

Some poskim maintain that the issur of singing a posuk applies to 
Torah Sh'bal Pe as
well.122 Nonetheless, one who is learning is allowed to hum a tune to 
the words of the
Gemorah.

Please see the publication itself for the footnotes.   YL



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On 7/08/2011 7:22 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> could someone please explain to me the process of how and why and when
> the chachamim are allowed to enact, or go around, clear midoraisa guidelines???
> eg, mishum eiva saving an aino""yehudi, etc, {or is that not a midoraisa???};

Eivah is pikuach nefesh; about 1800 or so, when it became clear that the
excuses which had stood us in good stead for 2000 years or more were no
longer going to be accepted, we suddenly find the first mention of such
a heter.  I don't know who first came up with it; the earliest I've seen
it is in the Chasam Sofer.  But the reason is simply to prevent a pogrom.


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

How did Abraham get the Kehuna from Shem?
-- 
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zur?ck-Garantie!               
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=606

Rav Moshe Shternbuch: Do Women Need To Hear Eicha?

Reading Eicha is a major part of the aveilus of Tisha B'Av.  Rav 
Moshe Shternbuch says (2:250) that since women are Chayav in all the 
halachos of aveilus of Tisha B'Av, they are also required to hear 
Eicha. If they can not go to Shul they can say it sitting on the 
floor in the privacy of their own home.

Since reading Eicha is part of the mitzva of mourning the Bais 
HaMikdash it is important for both men and women to understand the 
general meaning of Eicha. If you just read it without any 
understanding you haven't accomplished the goal. Rav Shternbuch 
recommends to use a readily available translation. A woman who 
doesn't understand anything at all and does not have access to a 
translation, need not go through the motions of reading Eicha.

Just like the Halacha of Davening, if a woman is so busy with her 
family that she cannot find the time for Eicha she is patur.

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