Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 145

Thu, 28 Jul 2011

• 1. dina demalchuta (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: dina demalchuta (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Music During the 3 Weeks (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 4. Re: Paamon veRimon (Simon Montagu)
• 5. Re: Paamon veRimon (Micha Berger)
• 6. kosher shaver (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 7. diff between small nick in koneh vs veshet (Hankman)
• 8. Re: dina demalchuta (Micha Berger)
• 9. One Hands or Two (rebshr...@aol.com)
• 10. Bigdei Cohen (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 11. Re: kosher shaver (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: dina demalchuta (Micha Berger)

<<I didn't see anything here suggesting that there is actually some sort of a
mitzva to pay taxes. You owe the money, and if you don't want to make a
chillul Hashem or get into trouble, you should take the initiative and pay,
but nothing that has a mitzva of DDD.>>

No one is talking about a mitzva. One certainly doesnt make a "yehi ratzon".
DDD is an obligation not a mitzvah.

As far as other arguments go it is clear that DDD has its limits.
In terms of being against halacha, in terms of being reasonable (90% tax)
and if it is isnt enforced. For specific application see your LOR.
However, most poskim say that DDD applied in principle to the US government
even though it is not a monarchy. There were also numerous article
applying in to the
Israeli government mainly written in the early 1950s by R. Israeli and others.


-- 
Eli Turkel

On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 03:55:06PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 7/22/2011 3:27 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> And recall, it's not only a deOraisa, it's a to'eivah. Having the tools
>> to cheat, even if one doesn't actually cheat in business, is a to'eivah.
...
> I'm not convinced that cheating the government is the same,  
> halakhically, as cheating a person...

I'm currently fighting scholarship committees, none of whom think it's
their school's job to help me with a 6 figure USD total tuition bill. So,
the following came to mind...

The 1040 is used for more than taxes. A false 1040 is a tool usable for
cheating scholarship committees. A foundation or other lender might ask
for a 1040, etc...

It therefore is a tool for cheating in ways other than cheating the gov't.
Which I agree, even if assur by DDD might not qualify as cheating in an
even va'aven sense of the concept.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' MB:
AIUI, we hold of the Rama's heter and listen to music during the year; but
are nohagim not to use that heter during the 3 weeks. Point being, we're
talking about minhag, even if minhag Yisrael. Add to that the senifim
lehaqeil: listning to a recording, in private (where dancing is unlikely)
and of acapella, and I am hard pressed to understand the machmirim.
---------------------


addition, the 9th Siyum HaShas was during Sefirah, and they had acapella
singing. (Though, IIRC, it was some sort of slow, maybe sad, song. I don't
remember - anyone else does? This was at Madison Square Garden.)

KT,
MYG

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 8:53 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> So, they found a golden bell which could plausibly be a paamon from the
> me'il of a kohein gadol. And quite probably isn't. I would be inclined to
> be skeptical, except that I can't figure out why someone not compelled
> by halakhah would make a bell out of 24 kt gold -- a metal too soft to
> make a nice ring. If this was typical of the paamonim of the me'ilah,
> the kohein gadol more rattled than rang.
>

There's a recording at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjx9tP3yTRI

Since the KG had 36, or 72, bells, I imagine he would have sounded a bit
like a wind chime
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On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 01:53:08PM -0400, I wrote:
: 2- Aside from the meshuach milchamah, which was not an issue during
: Herod's Bayis, were the 8 begadim ever worn outside the Har haBayis? (I
: guess the bell could come off during laundering, thus finding it in a
: watershed that didn't actually run /through/ Har haBayis doesn't rule
: out the bell being sacred. The story just got me wondering.)

Well, I'm looking through sources and see I erred on this one.

Bigdei kehunah were not washed for reuse -- ein aniyus bemaqom ashirus
(Zevachim 88b). If dam chatas had to be removed (94b) it was washed in
the BHMQ (with subsequent questions about how to wash a tamei beged)
but then that is to get the blood, not to reuse the beged. In any case,
laundering isn't going to be how a me'il lost a paamon.

I haven't yet found a discussion of whether there is an issur in being
metamei bigdei kehunah. But there are at least hezeq/me'ilah issues,
as the beged was made unusable. You can tear and repair the beged to be
metaheir it, but you can't use a repaired beged any more than a laundered
one. Not necessarily an issue, even if this bell were from a me'il.

However, how would living hands, at most a rishon letum'ah, get a keli
tamei anyway? I think my other question doesn't even get started.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
mi...@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

various opinions  apparently...  one  can fall back  on the   everything 
is assur   mode--   http://www.koshershaver.info/

one could  consider  the experimental method , yielding  these   more 
lenient  psakim----
http://www.zomet.org.il/Eng/?CategoryID=253&;ArticleID=141   based on this 
article  http://www.zomet.org.il/?CategoryID=198&;ArticleID=218&Page=1 
yields the list of acceptable  shavers
http://zomet.org.il/?CategoryID=320&;ArticleID=495&Page=1

now koshershaver.org     still offers  Norelco   blade  adjustment though
http://koshershaver.org/faqs.htm#FAQ6  their  list  of shavers  various 
poskim allow  has changed  recently it would  seem...

so there are  a variety opinions  from  everything-is-assur   to 
almost-everything-is-muttar......

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For those following the daf (and those who aren't as well), especially if
you have medical or vet background, can you explain why a small nick in the
veshet produces a traifa (which will not survive 12 months) whereas it
won't in the koneh unless it is rov. I would have thought that the koneh
would be the more sensitive to a small nick than the veshet wrt the
well-being of the animal? Please explain the physiology. Some here at our
daf pointed to the cartilaginous ring support the koneh has to remain open
and prevent collapse of the tube - which is of course lacking in the
veshet. I am not sure that would make a diff - with the airway function
still the more sensitive to small nicks - to my lay way of thinking.

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster
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Discussions of Shemu'el's pesaq "dina demalkhusa dina" (DDD) appear four
times in sifrei Chazal (Bar Ilan CD says), all of them in shas (Bavli).
The other three are.

BQ 113a-b: DDD obligate one to pay tax, if the tax collector is duly
appointed and only collects what the king told him to.

BB 54b-55a: DDD can define land ownership, and one is obligated to
pay taxes

Nedarim 28a: DDD means that you can't lie to tax collectors, again the
same constraints as to who is a valid collector

In looking for Chazal, I found a rishon I hadn't known of before --
at least, not that I remember, Tosafos Yevamos 46a "ki" -- DDD and the
qinyan of an eved kenaani.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 7:04am CEST, R Arie Folger wrote:
: Rashi does not come to explain that part, but rather to explain why
: DDD would not override usual halakha for gittin, too. To that Rashi
: says that the Noa'hides are not subject to the Jewish laws of
: marriage, as BN marriage follows different rules (there are a number
: of ma'hloqot about that, too), and since for gittin there is a
: requirement of benei keritut, therefore DDD falls flat in the case of
: gittin.

: Now we may fruitfully discuss whether gittin is an exception or some
: kind of general rule, an issue on which RMB and RZS disagree. Let me
: explain.

Well, while Rashi doesn't come to dicuss the rule, I think it's clear
from his saying that get is an exception because they aren't benei
kerisus that he holds of a general rule that necessitates this exemption.
More than that, Rashi says something about that too: "aval al hadinin
nitztavu benei Noach". So, benei Noach have to have dinei mamunus, laws
against hezeq, murder, etc... So, aside from all the gemaros saying
the DDD bans cheating on taxes, Rashi here says DDD includes the vast
majority of civil law -- anything they are obligated in.

We also already discussed DDD and cooperating with law enforcement and
when it even overrides mesirah (v28n137 #12). In the Maharam Shick's case,
even when we aren't certain the accused was guilty!


On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 02:12pm EDT, R Eli Turkel quoted R Eli Clark:
: Thus, the Gemara establishes that evading a fixed tax collected by a
: government tax collector is prohibited by Halacha. The Rambam
: formulates this rule in his Mishneh Torah (Hilchot Gezelah ve-Avedah
: 5:11), where he explains that tax evasion constitutes stealing from
: the king. He adds (ibid. 5:18) that this rule applies only to a king
: whose currency is accepted throughout the territory, which reflects
: that the citizens have consented to his rule...
: In contemporary times, poskim (decisors) have also taken a clear
: position on the issue. For instance, R. Moshe Feinstein writes to a
: person who engaged in tax evasion that it is "vadai (certain)" that he
: must repent for his actions and never do so again.8 The context
: suggests that the individual's tax evasion occurred in the United
: States.
:          .... According to R. Herschel Schachter, R. Joseph B.
: Soloveitchik z.t.l. stated that patronizing a Jewish merchant who
: cheats on his taxes violates the Biblical prohibition of lifnei iver.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:50pm IDF, R Akiva Blum replied:
: I didn't see anything here suggesting that there is actually some sort of a
: mitzva to pay taxes. You owe the money, and if you don't want to make a
: chillul Hashem or get into trouble, you should take the initiative and pay,
: but nothing that has a mitzva of DDD.

But I don't understand this comment. The gemara and Rambam clearly are
phrasing DDD as a lav. RMF affirms this on a lemaaseh level in the US,
and RYBS says lifnei iveir on tax evation is assur.

So, paying taxes is not an asei, but it /is/ a mitzvas lo saasei, and thus
an issue in addition to avoiding chillul hasheim -- no?

FWIW, I think risking chillul hasheim is a worse aveirah in and of itself.
Chillul Hashem is dinei nefashos, so even just being willing to risk it
is pretty significant.



On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 09:21:21PM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
> So how does it work in a situation where there police, for all practical  
> purposes, are not enforcing the speed at all (with rare exceptions)? ...

Since the criterion for DDD is a law that is enforced, then the answer
would appear to be that if Israeli police don't enforce speed limits, DDD
wouldn't include speeding. (Of course, you still need to drive safely...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

When Moshe places both hands on Yehoshua, Rashi tells us that he is
fulfilling G-d's command "B'Ayin Yafah" and in so doing "Umilu
Chachmato B'Ayin Yafah" and filling him (Yehoshua) with his wisdom
"B'Ayin Yafah".   The term "Ayin Yafah" is used for giving Terumah
Gedolah to the Kohen (Terumot 4:3) and broadly means "gnerously" as
oppose to "Ayin Raah" which means "stingily".  The term is important
because with it Rashi understands why Moshe is not viewed as
transgressing G-d's Mitvah of "V'Samachta Yado (singular) Alav".

It would seem according to Rashi that Moshe's actions are viewd as an
act of "Hidur Mitzvah" like adding candles to the Chanukah Menorah or
perhaps giving 1/40th of one's produce to the Kohen as opposed to
1/50th (Ayin Beinoni) or 1/60th (Ayin Harah).   Thus, the two hand
performance is viewed as a commendable beautifying and enhancing of
G-d's Mitvah, rather than a violation.

On the other hand, Moshe's striking the rock in anger rather than at
least speaking to it (which was the command) first is an act of
omission (he speaks to the Ahm, not to the rock).   In this case
hitting the rock can not be seen as "Hidur Mitzvah" since it is a
totally different P'ulah (action) from speaking to it, with which Moshe
could have taught the people (as Rashi explains) that if an inanimate
object which requires no maintenance by Hashem obeys Him, should we not
all the more so obey him.   Furthermore, one could derive from Moshe's
striking the rock twice almost the opposite:   even inanimate objects
need to be forced (strike one) and punished (strike two) to fulfill the
will of G-d, who is obviously therefore not that awe inspiring or
powerful.  Moshe's actions by Mei Merivah perhaps creates a Bizui
Mitzvah (a belittling of the Mitvah) rather than Hidur Mitzvah and he
is punished severely.

Kol Tov,

Stu Grant

Here is a youtube film about the Bigdei Kohen.
 
By Machon HaMikdash.

Includes measuring Rav Riskin for the clothing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTabSK9hDo4&;NR=1

Shoshana L. Boublil

A while back I had a chavrusah named Schwab, and my shaver broke, so I
asked him what his grandather (R Shimon) held.

RSS held that the heter relying on electric shavers being a scissor
action is valid. However, he spelled out two approaches to this:
1- Scissor action is mutar
2- Scissors are okay because the blade closer to the skin keeps the
cutting line away from the skin, and thus preventing full hashchasah.

The first line of reasoning recommends rotaries over other electric
shavers, since only rotaries' screens actually serve as a second cutting
blades. The second line of reasoning would apply to any razor that has
a protective screen, but not to a Norelco lift-n-cut, which claims that
it pulls the hair so that the cutting line is at a point stretched up
from *below* skin level.

IIRC (and this had to date back to before RSS's petirah in 1995), R'
Schwab didn't so much pasqen, but suggested that it was easy enough to
comply to both shitos, so why not?

Since then, I have been using either non-Norelco razors, or once I
clipped off the lifters from Norelco shaver heads.

BTW, in a very early iteration on this topic, RYGB suggested that shavers
were mutar because of their similarity to *chiselling*. I have been
repeating that since at least vol 6, but I can't find the original post.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson

More on DDD lemaaseh. See AhS CM 359 (the siman is dedicated to the
topic). But that's the fiscal sense of the word, and related to minhag
effecting qinyan. In fact, his usages are pretty consistently fiscal.

I found (so far) two exceptions, but neither are provably about an issur
of violating DDD. Other references in this siman to DDD
are about eved, and thus arguably fiscal.

AhS YD 257:12: if geirus is prohibted by the law, a man can be accepted
as a geir (or an eved) while waiting for a chance to safely do milah.

YD 334:1: prohibits using nidui and cheirem if DDD prohibits it. This is
bitul of a mitzvah qiyumis that is already up to the discretion of the
dayanim. (And besides, aren't there indications the AhS includes bones
thrown to the censors?)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life isn't about finding yourself
mi...@aishdas.org        Life is about creating yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Bernard Shaw
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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