Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 144

Mon, 25 Jul 2011

• 1. Re: can we marry them????? (karaites) (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: ONE HAND vs. TWO HANDS (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 3. dina demalchuta (garry)
• 4. Kofin Oso (Chana Luntz)
• 5. Re: Six psalms in Kabolles Shabbos (Arie Folger)
• 6. Music During the 3 Weeks (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Music During the 3 Weeks (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: can we marry them????? (karaites) (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: can we marry them????? (karaites) (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: can we marry them????? (karaites) (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: can we marry them????? (karaites) (Zev Sero)
• 12. Paamon veRimon (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: can we marry them????? (karaites) (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: can we marry them????? (karaites) (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Paamon veRimon (Lisa Liel)
• 16. Re: Paamon veRimon (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: Paamon veRimon (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: Paamon veRimon (Lisa Liel)

On 24/07/2011 5:44 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> if by yichus (don't they have the best yichus
> among anyone on the planet??)

Why would you think that?  What do you think their yichus is?

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

>>>RZS: "If Moshe could add a day to the preparations for mattan torah on
his own understanding, then he could certainly add a hand to Yehoshua's
smicha, in order to do the mitzvah with "kol atzmosai"."

I could not agree more. 

Not only COULD Moshe improvise, but that it was in his nature to typically
do so. While it may be digressing from the initial thread, if one will read
carefully all of the commands the God gives to Moshe concerning the handling
of each plague in Egypt, and the confronting of Pharaoh, or the interacting
with the Hebrew elders in Egypt,  one will see that, more often than not,
Moshe WOULD expand upon the instructions of his ACTIONS, commands given to
him by God, by doing something different, by doing what he saw was right for
that moment. 

Using human terms, if you have a new servant that you are breaking in, and
you see that there is such a pattern, and if you do NOT approve, you mention
it - strongly. But Moshe was given free rein concerning his ACTIONS
concerning goals that were immediate and temporary, and it appears that the
details of his ACTIONS were permitted (by lack of correction) to be adjust
as he saw fit.

The most dramatic example it that is trying to grapple with the nature of
the sin of Moshe and Aaron. After all, what the specific sin was is not
clearly stated in the written text. While it does provides the name of the
place, it refers AROUND the action, referring to it as a sin that both Moshe
and Aaron did at that place.

So for those who prefer a simple answer, we can say to them that the sin was
because Moshe hit a rock with his stick instead of speaking to a rock, and
the listener can then leave feeling satisfied. But for those who are not
satisfied with such a very narrow answer, we refer them to other sources.

The wide range of Midrashic literature (as well as commentaries by many of
the Mepharship) struggle with this, because improvising was certainly
permitted. Even from the very beginning Moshe was chosen (as some stories
infer) BECAUSE he would deviate and do what was right as he saw it, and he
was not reluctant to argue with the Creator of the Universe if he perceived
that he knew better (so to speak - a bad phrase, I admit, but you are
welcome to you're a better one). And God let him do that time and time
again. 

One source addresses that the nature of the sin of Moshe and Aaron, where
one might THINK that it was about outburst of anger  by asking: how can
anger be the reason since Aaron was the epitome of never getting angry?
Another addresses the nature of the sin of Moshe and Aaron as having hit a
rock with a staff by indicating that Aaron did not hit. Another addresses
Aarons connection to the sin (he stood by and kept quiet concerning whatever
Moshe was doing)  by saying that if Aaron interfered with his Rebbe, would
not such a chutzpah result in the student being put to death by God?

It is all part of addressing the context that Moshe not only improvised on
his ACTIONS a lot, but that God approved of Moshe doing what was right, at
all (other) times, because he always walked in His ways.

So, concerning smeicha, was it one hand or two? 

Moshe did what he saw as being correct and true at all times. 

Let us also not forget that the plural term is written in the singular (and
visa-versa), although there are those who disagree, and therefore hold
strongly that an angel has one leg only,(because it is written in the
singular), or there was only one frog that came to invade Egypt that became
many, or that a group of rocks became one rock under Yaakov's head, and so
on.

All the best.

Eliyahu Grossman
Efrat, Israel  

On 7/24/2011 8:07 PM, Lisa wrote:
> A democratic government is not the same as a monarchy.  In a monarchy,
> you either accept that the king rules over you or you don't.  There's no
> middle ground.  In a democracy (or a democratic republic, rather), the
> majority enforces its will on the minority, and the minority has*not*
> necessarily accepted that the majority has a right to do what it does.
> Since that minority is in a constant struggle to overturn what it deems
> to be wrong actions by the majority, you can't claim that the government
> is accepted in the same way that a monarchy is.

Most people don't see it that way. In a monarchy, either you accept the
king rules over you or you don't. If you do, you're still stuck with
some decisions you don't like. That's true even when the king changes
his mind.

In a representative democracy, either you accept the democratic system
(the legislature, executive, courts) or you don't. If you do, then
you're stuck with the decisions that go against you. Part of the system
you accept is the right to try to change stuff you don't like, and the
right of others to change things that you do like -- but until changed,
you either accept to be bound by whatever the presently-existing rules
are, or you don't.


On 7/24/2011 8:07 PM, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:
> I think there has to be a shikul on a case-by-case basis.  With
> proposals floating around for a 90% tax bracket (no joke), the question
> has to be asked.  In addition, the halakha views tax as a head tax.  A
> progressive tax can be viewed as a punitive tax, which may be more akin
> to a fine than a tax.  I don't think we say it's forbidden to avoid a
> punishment.

There were numerous cases where the amount due to the temple or
the priests or the poor depended on the amount of property you had.
If everything other than a head tax is a punishment, is that true of
maaser? If different people can be charged different _amounts_ based
on property or income, what basis is there to claim that different
_percentages_ make it punitive? (As for returning to the horrible
punitive days of the Eisenhower administration, when multi-millionaire
incomes were punitively reduced to fewer multi-millions, it's not gonna
happen, but it's hardly a silly idea.)

Garry Koenigsberg

Not sure to what extent people are interested in seeing all these sources,
but I do think it is important that there is a basic working knowledge of
what is in the rishonim on a topic like this so hopefully this will shed
some light.  Here at least is the Rambam that RMB has been referring to and
is one of the key positions in all this (again with my rough and ready
translation - if you are unhappy with it, please consult the original
Hebrew).


Rambam Hilchot Gerushin perek 2 halacha 20

?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????, ??? ??? ?? ????? ???
???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???, ??? ?? ?
????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??
????? ? ??? ?? ???, ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????
??? ?? ?? ????. ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????,
???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????
????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????
???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????. ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????
????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ?????
????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????. ?? ??? ???? ????
?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ???
?? ?? ????, ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????, ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????
???? ??, ??"? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????
?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??.

One to which the din pertains that they force him to divorce his wife and he
does not want to divorce, a beit din of Israel in any place and any time
strikes him until he says rotze ani and they write the get and this is a
kosher get, and so if non Jews strike him and say to him do that which the
Jew tells you and the Yisrael forces him by way of the non Jew until he
divorces behold this is kosher, and if the non Jew by himself forces him
until he writes since the din pertains  that he should write behold this is
a get pasul [ie rabbinically invalid, meaning they will not let her remarry,
but if she does remarry they do not force her to leave the second husband
and the child is kosher].  And why is this get not nullified since behold he
is compelled whether by way of non Jews or by way of Jews, because we do not
say compelled except to one who is forced and pushed to do a thing that he
is not from the Torah obligated to do like one who is hit until he sells or
gives but one whose yetzer hara overcomes him to nullify a mitzvah or to do
an averah and they strike him until he does the thing that he is obligated
to do or until  he distances himself from the thing that is forbidden to do
this is not compelling him rather he is compelling himself with his evil
intention.  Thus this one who does not want to divorce sice he wants to be a
Jews he wants to do all the mitzvos and distance himself from all averos and
his inclication has overpowered him and since when they strike until his
inclination submits and he says rotze ani he has already divorced l?rotzono.
And if the law does not pertain that they force him to divorce and if a bet
din of Israel makes a mistake or there is an ordinary person and they force
him until he divorces behold this is a get pasul and since a Jew forced him
and he completed and he divorced and if non Jews force him to divorce shelo
kedin aino get [ie not in any way a get, ie any child not from this man is a
mamzer] even though he said rotze aini and he said to a Jew to write and to
seal since it is not the din that he is obligated to force and the non Jews
force him it is not a get.

This of course needs to be coupled with the Rambam that I brought earlier
which said that if a woman says maos alai (ie my husband is repulsive to me)
a bet din is required to force the husband to give a get.

On the other hand, it is important to know that this is only one side of a
complicated story.  A very important side, it is extremely difficult to ever
ignore the Rambam.  But on the other hand there is Rabbanu Tam's view, which
is very different on the subject of using force and particularly vis a vis
maos alai.

Regards

Chana

R' Gary "K" [hint, hint ... who or what is "K"] wrote:
> I was taught that the six psalms in Kabollos Shabbos that lead up to
> L'cha Dodi represent the six days of the week (with mizmor shir, of
> course, representing Shabbat). ?I have not been able to find any
> discussion that connects the content of each ?psalm with the specific
> acts of creation for the day, or with the specific sefiros. ?(I have
> found some gematria on this, but I'm looking for content). ?Is anyone
> aware of such connections, or where I might find a discussion about
> them? ?Are there connections? ?Thanks!

Actually, in reality ... there is none, at least directly. The link
between the six days and the six psalms comes from the anonymous
Tiqunei Shabbat, which is the source for much of what is associated
with the Friday evening service, i.e. 6 psalms, Shalom 'Aleikhem,
Ribbon kol ha'Olamim, which includes two Heikhalot texts, and Eishet
'Hayil. Some other parts come from either Ramaq or Ari, but Tiqunei
Shabbat combined these divergent derakhim (i.e. Psalm 29, common to
both Ramaq and Ari, Lekha Dodi from Ramaq, written by his teacher and
BIL, R'Shelomo Alqavets, the Aramaic song of the Ari for before
Qiddush).

Anyway, the connection is thus made in Tiqunei Shabbat, where the 6
days are not directly linked to the six psalms, but they rather both
symbolize the six Sefirot above Malkhut. So there is no need to look
for any link between days of Creation and the psalms, as it's all
indirect.

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Speaking To Your Kids About Personal Safety                           
* Chance Favors the Concentration of Wealth, Study Shows - What's
Torah's Alternative?
* Biblical Advice for the Internet Age ii
* The Ecologically Correct Funeral
* The Goodly Tents of Jacob
* Biblical Advice for the Internet Age

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=506

Music In The 3 Weeks: Recorded Music, Acapella, Kumzitz, Singing To 
Yourself, <http://revach.net/article.php?id=506#>Music Lessons

The Mishna Brura (551:16) says that it is assur to dance in the 3 
weeks. This is the reason for the issur of listening to music. All 
the recent poskim (including Rav Moshe Feinstein and the Minchas 
Yitzchok) say that this includes listening to music even recorded 
from a tape or CD.

Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, The Tzitz Eliezer (15:33) 
and others say that even acapella recordings, singing that doesn't 
have musical instruments, are also forbidden.

A gathering of people are forbidden to sing if it is the kind of 
songs that will lead to dancing. Songs of praise to Hashem or in the 
spirit of the nine days are permitted.

Singing to yourself is permitted because it is just to lift your 
spirits and you don't usually break out in dance.  Nevertheless the 
Steipler Gaon did not let his children sing during the 3 weeks, only 
on Shabbos.

Music teachers can <http://revach.net/article.php?id=506#>continue to 
give lessons in the 3 weeks if they need to for their livelihood. Rav 
Elyashiv paskens that although permissible until Rosh Chodesh Av, 
lessons should not be given in the 9 days. (see Pischei Tshuvos 493:4 
and 551:13)

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On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 11:41:20AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Music In The 3 Weeks: Recorded Music, Acapella, Kumzitz, Singing To  
> Yourself, <http://revach.net/article.php?id=506#>Music Lessons

> The Mishna Brura (551:16) says that it is assur to dance in the 3 weeks. 
> This is the reason for the issur of listening to music. All the recent 
> poskim (including Rav Moshe Feinstein and the Minchas Yitzchok) say that 
> this includes listening to music even recorded from a tape or CD.

Notice two things:

1- They don't know "all the recent poskim" -- if they think the Minchas
Yitzchaq is quotable, RYBS should also make the list.

2- By putting "all the recent poskim" on this point, they are then slipping
in:
> Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, The Tzitz Eliezer (15:33) and 
> others say that even acapella recordings, singing that doesn't have 
> musical instruments, are also forbidden.

which they aren't (and can't) claim is true within their list of known
recent posqim (eg IM 1:166). Omitted, for example, is ROY, Yechave Da'as
6:34, who explicitly permits sung music without instruments, recorded and
live. Also, I understood that teshuvah from the TE to be meiqil when no
musical instruments are heard -- that recordings are the same as live:
instruments are assur in both cases, and a capella is mutar in both cases.

> Singing to yourself is permitted because it is just to lift your spirits 
> and you don't usually break out in dance.  Nevertheless the Steipler Gaon 
> did not let his children sing during the 3 weeks, only on Shabbos.

But an MP3 player or to a CD when alone in the car was implicitely
included in the first paragraph???

Speaking of radios, I think the Chelqas Yaaqov prohibits recordings,
since the player is a keli zemer, but not radio.


AIUI, we hold of the Rama's heter and listen to music during the year; but
are nohagim not to use that heter during the 3 weeks. Point being, we're
talking about minhag, even if minhag Yisrael. Add to that the senifim
lehaqeil: listning to a recording, in private (where dancing is unlikely)
and of acapella, and I am hard pressed to understand the machmirim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Warning: This is depending on memory

A long time ago I saw a psak by Rav Ovadia where he ruled that they were safek mamzerim. Therefore 1) we can't marry them 2) they can't marry themselves.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Harvey Benton 


  are the karaites considered jewish??
  i recently was told that R. Moshe
  only considered them jewish le'gabei
  saving them from the nazis
  i do not know if this is true, but i was 
  wondering why would they not be con-sidered
  jewish:http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
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On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 02:44:39PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: are the karaites considered jewish??
: i recently was told that R. Moshe
: only considered them jewish le'gabei
: saving them from the nazis

The Karaites of Crimea were saved in part because we alleged they were
NOT Jewish. But this was sheqer told in order to save lives.

The problems in yuchsin are (1) the definition of mamzeirus is TSBP,
and (2) they believe that Jewishness passes patrilineally.

ROY (Yabia Omer 8:12) says that intermarriage with Karaites has the happy
effect of bringing some of them back into the fold. He considers them Jews
lekhol davar.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

BTW, just found the Rambam has a teshuvah (Blau #265) that says that we
can't cound Karaim toward a minyan because they don't believe in minyan.
As opposed to milah, where their rules coincide with ours, where we can
use their mohalim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 25/07/2011 12:16 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Warning: This is depending on memory
> A long time ago I saw a psak by Rav Ovadia where he ruled that they were safek mamzerim. Therefore 1) we can't marry them 2) they can't marry themselves.

Warning: one has to be aware of the distinction between the Egyptian
Karaim and the Crimean ones.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

So, they found a golden bell which could plausibly be a paamon from the
me'il of a kohein gadol. And quite probably isn't. I would be inclined to
be skeptical, except that I can't figure out why someone not compelled
by halakhah would make a bell out of 24 kt gold -- a metal too soft to
make a nice ring. If this was typical of the paamonim of the me'ilah,
the kohein gadol more rattled than rang.

It was found in a main water channel that ran through Y-m, including
the Kotel haMaaravi, under Robinson's Arch.

I'm wondering:

1- Is someone who is presumably tamei allowed to touch and be metamei
bigdei kehunah?

2- Aside from the meshuach milchamah, which was not an issue during
Herod's Bayis, were the 8 begadim ever worn outside the Har haBayis? (I
guess the bell could come off during laundering, thus finding it in a
watershed that didn't actually run /through/ Har haBayis doesn't rule
out the bell being sacred. The story just got me wondering.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

On 25/07/2011 1:16 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 02:44:39PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
> : are the karaites considered jewish??
> : i recently was told that R. Moshe
> : only considered them jewish le'gabei
> : saving them from the nazis
>
> The Karaites of Crimea were saved in part because we alleged they were
> NOT Jewish. But this was sheqer told in order to save lives.

I've never heard that *we* told this to the Germans.  AFAIK it was the
Karaim themselves who said this, and that in any case this understanding
had been long established by then.


> ROY (Yabia Omer 8:12) says that intermarriage with Karaites has the happy
> effect of bringing some of them back into the fold. He considers them Jews
> lekhol davar.

Presumably, though, he is talking about the Egyptian Karaim, not the
Crimean ones.  AFAIK there is no reason to suppose the Crimean Karaim
are Jewish.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

Explanation: Egyptian Karaim are presumably descended from Jews; they
may have converted people over the years, but we have no basis for
assuming that such converts were so many that they can create a real
safek about any individual in their community (even though "kol kavua
kemechtza al mechtza", and especially now that they've moved to EY).
But the Crimean Karaim speak a Turkic language, and are presumably
primarily descended from converts that the Karaim made, who are of course
not Jewish at all.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On 7/25/2011 12:53 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I'm wondering:
>
> 1- Is someone who is presumably tamei allowed to touch and be metamei
> bigdei kehunah?

Is there reason to think that tum'ah hutra b'tzibbur wouldn't apply here?

> 2- Aside from the meshuach milchamah, which was not an issue during
> Herod's Bayis, were the 8 begadim ever worn outside the Har haBayis? (I
> guess the bell could come off during laundering, thus finding it in a
> watershed that didn't actually run /through/ Har haBayis doesn't rule
> out the bell being sacred. The story just got me wondering.)

Given the Kohanim Gedolim we had towards the end of Bayit Sheni, I 
wouldn't be surprised if they'd worn them to a brothel.

Lisa

On 25/07/2011 2:47 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 7/25/2011 12:53 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> I'm wondering:
>>
>> 1- Is someone who is presumably tamei allowed to touch and be metamei
>> bigdei kehunah?
>
> Is there reason to think that tum'ah hutra b'tzibbur wouldn't apply here?

How so?  What avodah is being done with this bell?


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On 25/07/2011 2:47 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> 1- Is someone who is presumably tamei allowed to touch and be metamei
> bigdei kehunah?

AFAIK bigdei kehuna have no kedushas haguf, so there shouldn't be any
issur in making them tamei.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

Actually, Lisa didn't write that.

On 7/25/2011 2:46 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 25/07/2011 2:47 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> 1- Is someone who is presumably tamei allowed to touch and be metamei
>> bigdei kehunah?
>
> AFAIK bigdei kehuna have no kedushas haguf, so there shouldn't be any
> issur in making them tamei.
>


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