Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 122

Fri, 01 Jul 2011

• 1. Re: R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (Harry Maryles)
• 2. Re: swimming lessons (Gershon Dubin)
• 3. Re: swimming lessons (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (Harry Maryles)
• 7. R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader (Joseph Kaplan)
• 8. swimming lessons (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: swimming lessons (T6...@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Ten Tribes (was Yovel) (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 11. Re: Ten Tribes (was Yovel) (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 12. Re: kulanu zadikim?? (Yosef Skolnick)
• 13. Pas Akum and Shabbos (Prof. Levine)
• 14. loshon of the gemorrah/kol mi she'omer (Harvey Benton)

--- On Thu, 6/30/11, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 06:25:58AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: You're right that there is no way of knowing whether RSRH's views about
: Austritt would have been moidifed by the Holocaust. Can't prove it one
: way or the other. But I don't think it is fair to assume he would not
: have been influenced by the Holocaust and therefore still opposed to it.

...But RSRH's argument for Austritt has nothing to do with the Holocaust.
So, while we don't know what he would have said, there is no room to
justify the supposition that his position would have changed from what
RSRH did say in the 19th cent.

?
------------------------------------------
?
?
I actually mis-spoke. What I meant to say is that his views on Zionism
might have changed by the Holocaust much as RYBS's views changed. But his
views on Austritt may have been modified by present day realities. 
?
In RSRH's day, Austritt was his answer to activist Reformers. There was no
delaing with those whose?goals were to remove Judaism from the Jews. And
they ran 'the show'! He saw?Austritt as the best (perhaps only) solution to
that problem
?
In our day, Secular Jews are not out to 'convert us'. We live among?and
they have?virtually no influence on us. The purpose of Austritt is
therefore no longer valid. In our day the reverse is true. There are more
outreach organizations than ever. Austritt defeats or at least
undermines?their purpose.
?
Again - there is no way of knowing, but perhaps in our era, RSRH would have changed his mind about Austritt as well.
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

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On 30/06/2011 2:23 PM, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:

<< http://matzav.com/rav-shteinman-advis
es-mechanchim-not-to-take-talmidim-to-bodies-of-water-due-to-sakanah
 does anyone know maran 's explanation of the gmara requiring fathers to
 teach swimming to their children?>> The explanation of that chiyuv
 is so that he can save himself should he get into a mess on the high seas.
  I would imagine that Rav Sheinman considers that not germane to
 recreational swimming,  Swimming instruction does not seem to be the issue
 here, particularly when engaged in by the children's fathers.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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On 30/06/2011 4:00 PM, Goldmeier Family wrote:
> I am sure that in a situation of specific sakana caused by the swimming itself, the sakana would take precedence over the precept of teaching swimming.

In any case, there is no such precept.  It's listed in the gemara, but
anyone can see just by looking at the list that it's not brought down
lehalacha.  This seems to be one of those unkillable myths that circulate,
like Mordechai being Esther's uncle, or that we can't find the mekom
shechita on a giraffe.  Perhaps RAZ can do an article on it.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 01:45:42PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: I actually mis-spoke. What I meant to say is that his views on Zionism
: might have changed by the Holocaust much as RYBS's views changed. But
: his views on Austritt may have been modified by present day realities.

: In RSRH's day, Austritt was his answer to activist Reformers...

If you take RSRH at his word, Austritt was not only a pragmatic solution
to prevent his qehillah from being wept out with the tide (sorry for
the pun), but also philosophically and ideologically driven. For one
citation, see RSRH's "'Religion Allied to Prograss'" (from Collected
Writings; a long quote is available at
<http://people.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/363_Transp/Orthodoxy/SRHirsch.html
>.)


And AISI, Austritt precludes RZ -- if one understands being part of
the Zionist umbrella to be part of the definition of RZ. (Withough it,
I would think that a chareidi who makes aliyah to Ramot Polin or the
heart of Benei Braq would be a "Religious Zionist".)

Therefore, I see RSRH as he actually did live as espousing a philosophy
that wouldn't translate to supporting RZ today.

I'm not sure why we need to speculate about whether he could or would
have said otherwise had he lived in another era. Do we need RSRH's
validation so badly that we will put words in his mouth to get it?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

At 04:58 PM 6/30/2011, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 04:06:22PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> >> This is empty speculation, but then so is opining about tzadiq vera lo...
>
> > I do not think that it is a stretch of the imagination to think that
> > RSRH's views on Zionism and the State of Israel after the Holocaust would
> > be similar to those of Rav Dr. Joseph Breuer and Rav Shimon Schwab.
>
>But it's still imagination. I was just saying that there is nothing in
>what he actually did say that ceased being true once that battle was
>lost.

What battle was lost?


>Unlike the thrust of most of the Lithuanian opposition. And in fact,
>Agudah went from anti-Zionism to a-Zionism.

But Rav Schwab never changed his opposition to Zionism.  There are 
others also.  Rav Gifter remained steadfast in his opposition to 
Zionism.  The following is from 
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/gifter.cfm

"We know the truth. The truth is that Zionism is a curse, and that's 
the way it is. Zionism is murder! And that's what it really is, 
because it is true!"

See the above URL for the rest of this speech about Zionism.

Yitzchok Levine 
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--- On Thu, 6/30/11, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:


I'm not sure why we need to speculate about whether he could or would
have said otherwise had he lived in another era. Do we need RSRH's
validation so badly that we will put words in his mouth to get it?
-------------------------
?
I don't think it is 'putting words in is mouth' to say that most of his
Hashkafos are Modern Orthodox. R' Gil wrote a post on his blog
yesterday?based on an article by R. Yitzchak Blau. Based on the post and
the article?- while it may be true that the 2 points we are dwelling on are
Charedi??most of them are MO. Looking at his Hashkafos as a whole I think
it is fair to say that where it counts his views reflect more of an
MO?Hashkafa than they do a Charedi Hashkafa.?
?
As I wrote on my blog today (quoting from Hirhurim - quoting R' Blau):
?
...there are six things about Rav Hirsch pointed out by Rav Blau that are decidedly modern Orthodox:
1. Analyzing biblical characters as great but flawed human beings

2. Considering the legends of the Talmud (aggados) to be non-binding

3. Asserting that the science of the talmudic sages was occasionally incorrect

4. Encouraging women?s intellectual development

5. Embracing a Universalist belief in the spiritual value of all people regardless of race, sex, nationality or religion 

6. Believing in the inherent value in secular studies, including the liberal arts
Is there any real question about where these six items lie? Nor is there
anything wrong with speculating whether he may have had a different
response to?to the 2 items in question herehad he lived?today.?
But even without them it is pretty clear to me that his over-all views are
very similar to MO... despite the best efforts those who? want to strip him
of any connection to MO.
And yes we do need his validation. The tide is definitely against moden Orthdodxy, 
Why shouldn't MO?trumpet RSRH as one of its own to help counter that trend? Especially if its true.
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

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RMB: "
> This is empty speculation, but then so is opining about tzadiq vera lo...
> 
> RZ violates Austritt. Zionism's success doesn't change that."

True, but this whole topic is empty speculation, using terms and political
ideologies that weren't in existence in Hirsch's time and trying to squeeze
him into, or out of, them.  Hirsch thought Austritt was appropriate for his
community.  Would he have thought that about the U.S. or Israel?  It's all
empty speculation. 

Joseph Kaplan

At 05:14 PM 6/30/2011, Rafi Goldmeier wrote:

>I am sure that in a situation of specific sakana caused by the swimming
>itself, the sakana would take precedence over the precept of teaching
>swimming.
>
>Kol tuv
>Rafi Goldmeier

This must have something to do with the lack of supervision of the 
boys on these trips.  Or, perhaps the places where they go swimming 
are dangerous.

It is difficult for me to understand how anyone can be against 
swimming per se.  Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky was an avid swimmer.  I 
recall that he created a stir on a Friday afternoon when, while 
visiting his son Avraham at a bungalow colony in Monroe, he went down 
to the pool, dove in and swam laps.  He was in his eighties at the 
time. :-)   YL
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On 30/06/2011, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
>
>  
http://matzav.com/rav-shteinman-advis
es-mechanchim-not-to-take-talmidim-to-bodies-of-water-due-to-sakanah
>  does anyone know maran 's explanation of the gmara requiring fathers to 
teach  swimming to their children?




>>>>>
 
There are two different, separate issues here:
 
1.  Fathers should teach their children to swim (or make arrangements  for 
/somebody/ to teach the kids to swim) because not knowing how to swim can  
place a person in sakana.
 
2.  Teachers should not take groups of children to bodies of water,  
because of sakana.
 
There is no contradiction between these two statements!
 
 


--Toby Katz
================




_____________________  







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R"n Toby Katz wrote:

> There is a mesorah that [some?  many? most?] converts to Judaism
> are people who were really already part of the Jewish people,
> they just didn't know it. Their neshamos want to be Jewish.
> Someone could be Jewish by matrilineal descent going back
> centuries and not be aware of it. They could even go all the
> way back to the Ten Tribes, theoretically, or they could be
> descendants of forced xian converts from the Spanish Inquisition
> or from any one of many countries in many centuries.

I have not heard this before. And in fact, it would be somewhat problematic, because it would mean the the convert's siblings are also Jewish.

What I *HAVE* heard is the idea that the convert's *neshama* was at Sinai,
and now realizes that it wants/needs to reconnect. This is significantly
different than saying that the convert is biologically descended, mother
after mother, from Jews such as you describe.

Akiva Miller


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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Again, see Yevamos 17a. The gemara asks what about the descendents
> of the daughters of the 10 shevatim?
> Answer 1: There is a mesorah that they went sterile. ...
> Answer 2, given by R' Yehudah besheim Shemu'el: Chakhamim at the
> time declared them non-Jews. And this is proven by a pasuq in
> Hosheia.

I cannot imagine a bigger example of "being Oker a Lav D'Oraisa b'Kum
v'Aseh" than that of taking someone who is chayav in taryag mitzvos, and
declaring that he is henceforth patur from taryag mitzvos.

Surely someone must ask that question on that gemara. Is anyone familiar with the meforshim on it? Does anyone suggest *how* they made them into non-Jews?

If there is *not* any discussion about this amazing ability to exempt
entire shevatim from mitzvos, can we perhaps interpret this as a consensus
that "Answer 2" is incorrect, and that all those women really did become
sterile?

I find it curious that this idea is being raised on Avodah, at the same
time that we have discussions about which stories to take literally, and
which are not. To me, the simplest reading of this pasuk (Hoshea 5:7) is
exactly as the Metzudas David explains: The children are referred to as
"zarim" because the Jewish fathers took non-Jewish wives, and descent is
matrilineal.

(Please let me stress that I am not arguing with the Gemara. I would just
like to know what the procedure is for turning a Jew into a non-Jew. I am
also suggesting that if no such procedure exists, then perhaps we are
misunderstanding the Gemara.)

Akiva Miller

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> if we are all tzadikim, then home come all of us do not get to go into
>> olam haba??
>>
>
> I think you're understanding it backward.
> "Kol yisrael yesh lahem chelek laolam haba, shenemar, "v'amech kulam
> tzaddikim..."."
>
> Kol Tuv,
> Liron
>
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The following is from http://www.thehalacha.com/attach/Volume4/Issue4.pdf

One should try not to buy pas akum foods26
(even for a snack)27 out of honor for Shabbos,28
even if one normally eats it during the week.
Although, many people like eating Stella Dora
cookies because it is a good snack, pareve, and a
great treat for a Shabbos afternoon when one is
fleishig, this should be avoided on Shabbos since
they are pas akum.29 According to some poskim
the same applies to pretzels.30

26 Magen Avraham 242:4, Elya Rabbah 10, Shulchan
Aruch Harav 12, Chai Adom Shabbos 1:4, Chesed
L'alafim 3, Mishnah Berurah 6.
27 Shar Ha'tzyion 18.
28 Elya Rabbah 10.
29 Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita.
30 Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita, see Rivevos Ephraim
8:431:3. There is no difference on the thinness of the
pretzel (Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita).
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the gemorrah loshon is "kol mi she' omer"....that dovid didn't sin, etc, ela 
only toeh....
the gemorah does not say that dovid, and shlomo, etc did not sin, 
because the loshon and tone of the novi, is that they did definitely sin 
(otherwise why the rebuke from the novi re: batsheva, and his first-
born dying, etc???)
-----
however, the gemorro is teaching us perhaps, that, on our level, 
"kol mi she' omer" whoever "says" that they sinned, is mistaken, 
because on our level we dont' really understand what their sin was....
and are therefore unable to say it 
(eg, above out pay grades, but not above the novi's pay grade....)
---
otherwise, how to explain this discrepancy from novi to gemmorrah??
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