Volume 28: Number 120
Thu, 30 Jun 2011
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:30:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ten Tribes (was Yovel)
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 02:06:31AM +0100, Allan Engel wrote:
: Why is it such a stretch to say that, in the same way that he will reveal
: the shevet of every member of klal yisroel, he will also reveal the shevet
: of those people who don't even know themselves to be Jewish? How would they
: be in any worse position than a Jewish Tinok Shenishba?
It's a stretch, because that's not what the gemara I pointed to says.
Again, see Yevamos 17a. The gemara asks what about the descendents
of the daughters of the 10 shevatim?
Answer 1: There is a mesorah that they went sterile. (I assume this means
that anyone who thinks they are from one of these shevatim must therefore
be patrilineal.)
Answer 2, given by R' Yehudah besheim Shemu'el: Chakhamim at the time
declared them non-Jews. And this is proven by a pasuq in Hosheia.
And then we were discussing whether this is a general rule -- that
matrilineal descent can be anulled by ignorance (R' Aharon Lichtenstein's
shitah) or it was a gezeira (simple peshat in the gemara and in the Bach
RAL cites). See "Leaves of Faith", pg 63
<http://books.google.com/books?id=_QshqTu9nGIC&;lpg=PA57&pg=PA63#v=onepage>
But in any case, chazal know as from a pasuq that they are non-Jews. There
is no hidden identity here to be revealed.
At least it seems open-and-shut to me.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 2
From: Allan Engel <allan.en...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 02:06:31 +0100
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ten Tribes (was Yovel)
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 1:58 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> In any case, I still don't think they're Jewish.
> And I still don't. I already cited an explicit gemara that an emergency
> session of beis din either found their descendents to be non-Jewish or
> enacted a ruling that de-Judaized them somehow. So I don't think the
> lost shevatim are counted toward a rov in chu"l.
Why is it such a stretch to say that, in the same way that he will reveal
the shevet of every member of klal yisroel, he will also reveal the shevet
of those people who don't even know themselves to be Jewish? How would they
be in any worse position than a Jewish Tinok Shenishba?
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Message: 3
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 01:59:24 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] yovel
R"n Lisa Liel wrote:
> You're assuming a lot. Since he isn't a member of Ephraim, why would
> he inherit Ephraim's land? I don't know where the idea of the child
> of intermarriage belonging to the maternal grandfather's tribe comes
> from. Do you have any source for that?
As to the first part: As I explained, if the mother has no brothers, then
she gets her father land. And then when she dies, her son gets it. Isn't
this straightforward? Why wouldn't this work? For this part, it doesn't
matter what shevet one belongs to, right?
As to the second part: I don't know where I got it. But enough people have called me on it that I am going to concede that I must have been mistaken.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 05:24:48 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader
Yes, Rav Hirsch opposed a movement back to Zion, but that does not mean that he would feel the same after the Shoah, and when the medina is a reality.
Ben
----- Original Message -----
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
1--R Hirsch would clearly not be comfortable in a DL/RZ setting
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Message: 5
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:05:46 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] ten tribes
<<I certainly do not question Eliyahu Hanavi's ability to identify
someone al pi nevuah. What I do question is the existence of someone
from the 10 tribes BEN ACHAR BEN after all this time left to identify.
The galus of the 10 tribes was c. 2600 years ago. Conservatively, at
about 4 or more generations per century this means the probability of
anyone from an all male line is the inverse of 2 to the 104th power!
This is so tiny that it is a virtual impossibility without the
intervention of nes. You remember the story about the "mere" request
from a king giving a reward for one grain doubled on each square of
the chessboard. This was only 2 to the 64th power.>>
I disagree with the mathematics. We don't start from a person then and
figure out what is the probability. Ignoring intermarriage every Jew
is a descendant of one of the 12/13 tribes. Hence, the probability
that someone is from shevet Ephraim should be 1/12. To this we need to
take into account the realities after the Northern kingdom was exiled.
Assuming all those exiled to Assyria/Babylom etc are lost we would
need to know the percentage of people living in Judea that were from
Ephraim. Though this number is small it is not infinitesimal.
This statistics are of course not perfect. Though I have no numbers I
suspect that the percentage of Jews today that are Cohanim or Leviim
is lower than what was the situation at the end of Bayit Rishon.
<<Though there is the gemara that says that among those Jews who were exiled
and didn't return soon after, all of the women were miraculously childless,
so that we needn't worry about their descendants being Jewish. Otherwise
we'd have a problem in the countries where the Tanach tells us they were
exiled to, because kol kavua kemechtza al mechtza, so any person in that
country would have a 50% chance of being Jewish, and thus a safek mamzer.>>
Sorry, but I have a problem taking this gemara literally that the
entire population of the Northern kingdom that was
exiled disappeared in one generation because there were no children.
Furthermore, what about all the Moabites and
other nations that we can't intermarry with. Did they also fail to
have children?
In many cases the gemara gives a strained answer to avoid the problem
according to some shitah.
As to believing all the stories, I personally still have trouble
accepting the famous story of Rav Ashi and the king Menashe.
While I don't know the pull of Avodah Zara in those days it is clear
that even among the evil kings of Judea that Menashe was at the
bottom.
Also remember that the 10 tribes were completely estranged from
Judaism, worshipping idols and having limited contact with any Torah
scholars once they were exiled. So it is highly unlikely that they
took steps to preserve their identity and to avoid mamzerim.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 06:21:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 05:24:48AM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
: From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
:> 1--R Hirsch would clearly not be comfortable in a DL/RZ setting
: Yes, Rav Hirsch opposed a movement back to Zion, but that does not
: mean that he would feel the same after the Shoah, and when the medina
: is a reality.
This is empty speculation, but then so is opining about tzadiq vera lo...
RZ violates Austritt. Zionism's success doesn't change that.
Although it is interesting to note how many otherwise-Hirschians were
the founding leadership of Poalei Agudah.
For the same reason that RYBS's stand on the Synagogue Council of America
was not Austritt, MO is more comfortable with RZ than RSRH's shitah allows
for.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 7
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 07:26:39 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader
At 09:02 PM 6/29/2011, R. Saul Z. Newman wrote:
>3-- The more interesting question would be where would be the comfortable
>fit in the haredi community; in the post-Slifkin era would he be
>self-censoring?
> Or is emes a greater midah than capitulation?
I have a friend who is a BT and was for many years very close with R.
A. Miller and davened in his shul. He has a master's degree in
physics and works as a computer programmer for a bank in Manhattan.
He never attended yeshiva, but he has and continues to spend time learning.
About 3 years ago he moved to Lakewood, because many of his children
and grandchildren live there. Several months ago he sent me an email
complaining that there is no one in Lakewood with whom he can have an
intelligent conversation. He did not mean an intelligent
conversation about Torah topics, because there are many people in
Lakewood with whom he could converse intelligently about Torah
topics. He meant a conversation about secular matters and, in
particular, about a certain book dealing with non-Torah topics that
he had read recently.
In light of this I have a feeling that RSRH also would not be too
comfortable in Lakewood. If he mentioned Schiller, how would he be
looked upon?
In fairness, I am sure that RSRH would be comfortable with someone
like Rabbi Yaakov Yosef Reinman, co-author of One People, Two Worlds:
A Reform rabbi and an Orthodox rabbi explore the issues that divide
them, who resides in Lakewood. YL
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Message: 8
From: Yitzchak Schaffer <yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:07:52 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader
On 2011-06-30 06:21, Micha Berger wrote:
> RZ violates Austritt. Zionism's success doesn't change that.
>
I don't see how ideological RZ per se violates Austritt. Working
together with secular Zionist organizations, yes; but working
independently toward the same goal seems incidental to me. Do you mean
that participating in the state as citizens would be a violation of
Austritt?
--
Yitzchak Schaffer
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Message: 9
From: Harry Maryles <hmary...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 06:25:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader
--- On Thu, 6/30/11, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 05:24:48AM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
: From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
:> 1--R Hirsch would clearly not be comfortable in a DL/RZ setting
: Yes, Rav Hirsch opposed a movement back to Zion, but that does not
: mean that he would feel the same after the Shoah, and when the medina
: is a reality.
This is empty speculation, but then so is opining about tzadiq vera lo...
RZ violates Austritt. Zionism's success doesn't change that.
Although it is interesting to note how many otherwise-Hirschians were
the founding leadership of Poalei Agudah...
---------------------------------------
?
Until the Holocaust RYBS was in the anti Medinah camp as well. This was the
Shita of R' Chaim?and his sons, R' Moshe and?R' Velvel (and still is among the Israeli Briskers). But RYBS changed his mind after the holocaust.
?
You're right that?there is no way of knowing whether?RSRH's views about
Austritt would have been moidifed by the Holocaust. Can't prove it one way
or the other. But I don't think it is fair to assume he would not have been
influenced by the Holocaust and therefore still opposed to it.?
?
I believe it is just as legitimate to say he would have been influenced by it as it is to say he wouldn't have been.
?
And as you note, many Hirscheans were among the founding leadership of Poalei Agudah - an organization that obviously supported the state of Israel.
?
HM
Want Emes and Emunah in your life?
Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/
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Message: 10
From: D&E-H Bannett <db...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:40:24 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] barukh sheamar
In the absence of R' Seth with whom I enjoyed our du-siach,
I find that I am not often aroused from my lurker mode. I
usually wait until the thread peters out and then, if nobody
made the comment I would make, I sometimes add my trwo cents
or throw a bomb shell.
On barukh sh'amar I would like to ask a sh'elat tam, or
perhaps it is not really a sh'elat tam.
Much has been said about the pitka mishamayim which gave us
the 87 words of barukh she'amar. As there are many versions
of barukh she'amar and most do not have 87 words, I wonder
if someone can tell me which of the versions was on the
pitka mishamayim.
Sa'adia Gaon has a short form on weekdays without the
introduction before the b'rakha. On Shabbat he has longer
version, Amram Gaon has a slightly longer version. All of
them have less than 87 words. The Teimani nusach has
approximately 100 words. I assume, the Rambam nusach is the
same.
IIRC, The Etz Hayyim on the Baladi nusach siddur comments
that the mekubalim make a fuss about the 87 words but,as
there a reso many different versions, everyone should stick
to their traditon and not change to an 87 word version.
I also wonder if anyone remembers what I wrote a long time
ago about b'fi 'amo vs. b'feh 'amo, good Hebrew vs. bad
Hebrew. Or was that on the Mesorah list?
k"t,
David
and the Hafetz Hayyim recommending the
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Message: 11
From: Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:31:50 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Ten tribes
Two nights ago, when we studied the first daf of Chulin the magid
shiur showed us the first Mordechai on the Masechet. He quotes one of
the Rabbonim of the ten tribes.
I don't have a Gemoro with the Mordechai handy, but it's worth looking
up and quoting...
- Danny, Project Manager looking for a project to manage.
--
Thanks
- Danny
Danny Schoemann
Goldknopf 41/6, Ramat Shlomo, Jerusalem
++972-2-571 0181
LinkedIn profile: http://linkedin.com/in/doniels
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Message: 12
From: Hankman <sal...@videotron.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:05:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] yovel
Rn'TK wrote:
You didn't read my post carefully. I wasn't talking about the Ten LOST
Tribes, which are probably lost forever, long intermarried with other
nations. I was talking about individuals from each of those tribes who
lived in the SOUTHERN kingdom, the kingdom of Yehuda, at the time the Bayis
Rishon was destroyed, and who have remained within the Jewish fold
throughout the centuries. It is no more improbable that a man from Naftali
or Zevulun would today have thousands of male descendants than it is
improbable that a kohen alive three thousand years ago would today have
thousands of kohen descendants, ben achar ben. Every man alive today is
the descendant, ben achar ben, of a man who lived thousands of years ago.
(Maleness is always transmitted in the male line.) As long as this man
from Shevet X remained Jewish and remained within the fold all those years
ago, there is no reason he shouldn't today have many living descendants
among the Jewish people -- not far away in a dist
ant land but right here in Miami or New York or Tel Aviv.
--Toby Katz
================
CM responds:
No. I did digest the intent of your post.
Your counter argument from the existence today of kohanim or in fact of any
shevet (Naftali or Zevulon of your post, or Levi, Binyamin or indeed Yehuda
which demonstrably exist today) made me search for the difference to our
case. In turns out (if I now understand the issue correctly) the problem is
with an implicit assumption (that I did not recognize) in my initial
argument.
Your parenthetical (literally) argument, that "Maleness is always
transmitted in the male line" while a true fact genetically, is a red
herring and totally irrelevant to your (otherwise correct) argument. The
implicit assumption that I unknowingly made seems to be the reason for the
falsity of my argument. I implicitly assumed that you only have ONE child
and NO MORE from which the probabilities I asserted follow. This is usually
not the case. Most people do in fact have more than one child. This
significantly changes the statistics and is the reason your counter
examples happen and which leaves me with an incorrect line of reasoning in
my previous post. Sorry.
Kol Tuv
Chaim Manaster
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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:21:58 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 07:26:39AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> In fairness, I am sure that RSRH would be comfortable with someone like
> Rabbi Yaakov Yosef Reinman, co-author of One People, Two Worlds: A Reform
> rabbi and an Orthodox rabbi explore the issues that divide them, who
> resides in Lakewood.
You think that the leading proponent of Austritt would be comfortable with
someone who coauthored a book with a Reform rabbi? I very much don't.
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:07:52AM -0400, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:
> On 2011-06-30 06:21, Micha Berger wrote:
>> RZ violates Austritt. Zionism's success doesn't change that.
> I don't see how ideological RZ per se violates Austritt. Working
> together with secular Zionist organizations, yes; but working
> independently toward the same goal seems incidental to me. Do you mean
> that participating in the state as citizens would be a violation of
> Austritt?
No, I presumed that working with other Zionists was part of the definition
of RZ. As opposed to chibat Tzion, ahavat EY, or some other concept that
drove anti-State chareidim to move to EY. We hit a "definition of terms"
issue.
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 06:25:58AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: You're right that there is no way of knowing whether RSRH's views about
: Austritt would have been moidifed by the Holocaust. Can't prove it one
: way or the other. But I don't think it is fair to assume he would not
: have been influenced by the Holocaust and therefore still opposed to it.
Until the Holocaust, RYBS was a firm believer in Daas Torah (in caps). His
hesped for R' Chaim Ozer Grozhinsky (HaTzitz vehaChoshen) is possibly
the most poetic defense for the concept. The person who bears the tzitz
reading Qodesh Lashem has to be the same one wearing the choshen bearing
the names of the shevatim -- religious and mundane leadership must be
in the same person.
However, later in Yosef veEchav, RYBS, argues that the fate of the Jews
who listened to Daas Torah rather than Mizrachi was HQBH pasqening that
Mizrachi was right. There was an ideological reason for RYBS to shift
position in response to the Holocaust. (Aside from his own father's ties
to Mizrachi making it more thinkable for him.)
But RSRH's argument for Austritt has nothing to do with the Holocaust.
So, while we don't know what he would have said, there is no room to
justify the supposition that his position would have changed from what
RSRH did say in the 19th cent.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
mi...@aishdas.org I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org - Helen Keller
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 14
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:49:12 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader
All of this trend is speculation.
And yes Zionism's success changes things. What was relevant in 1870 wasn't
relevent in post Holocaust, post-1948 Israel.
Great rabbis changed their stance on Israel/Zionism in the 20th century.
Maybe he would have also.
Who knows.
Ben
----- Original Message -----
From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
>
> This is empty speculation, but then so is opining about tzadiq vera lo...
>
> RZ violates Austritt. Zionism's success doesn't change that.
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Message: 15
From: Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:16:28 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ten tribes
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Two nights ago, when we studied the first daf of Chulin the magid
> shiur showed us the first Mordechai on the Masechet. He quotes one of
> the Rabbonim of the ten tribes.
>
> I don't have a Gemoro with the Mordechai handy, but it's worth looking
> up and quoting...
>
That would be Eldad HaDani
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Message: 16
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 14:00:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] R. Hirsch as a Modern Orthodox Leader
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 07:49:12PM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
> From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
>> This is empty speculation, but then so is opining about tzadiq vera lo...
>> RZ violates Austritt. Zionism's success doesn't change that.
> And yes Zionism's success changes things. What was relevant in 1870
> wasn't relevent in post Holocaust, post-1948 Israel.
But I didn't say otherwise. I explicitly did not rule out the
possibility that RSRH might have changed his philosophical stance after
the Holocaust and 1948. But within that stance, there is no justification
for becoming RZ.
What did I say was that there is nothing in RSRH's formal justification
that changed. If it is assur to join apiqursim even on community-survival
matters, the founding of the state doesn't make it mutar.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507 parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv
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Message: 17
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 14:20:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] barukh sheamar
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 05:40:24PM +0300, D&E-H Bannett wrote:
> Much has been said about the pitka mishamayim which gave us the 87 words
> of barukh she'amar. As there are many versions of barukh she'amar and
> most do not have 87 words, I wonder if someone can tell me which of the
> versions was on the pitka mishamayim.
The Rambam is a daas yachid in believing that there are no machloqesin
in halakhos leMoshe miSinai. (And the Rambam requires dochaq teirutzim to
fit the data.) If machloqesin could emerge in HlMmS, why not divergent
drift in traditions about the original content of the peteq?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 18
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 14:31:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ten tribes
On 30/06/2011 9:31 AM, Danny Schoemann wrote:
> Two nights ago, when we studied the first daf of Chulin the magid
> shiur showed us the first Mordechai on the Masechet. He quotes one of
> the Rabbonim of the ten tribes.
It's the first Tosfos as well. The quote is from the sefer "Hilchos
Alef Yud", which is often assumed to stand for "Eretz Yisrael", but in
fact stands for "Amar Yehoshua". It was a book known to the rishonim
which was attributed to the famous Eldad Hadani, and purported to be
halachot transmitted directly by Yehoshua in Moshe's name, which were
known in Eldad's country. Eldad, of course, was a fraud, and so was
this sefer, whether he authored it or not. All the rishonim quote this
purported halacha from this sefer, and all dismiss it without the
slightest thought, because it contradicts a clear gemara. None of them
even try to resolve the problem, as they surely would had they regarded
the sefer as a reliable source.
--
Zev Sero If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
return to all the places that have been given to them.
- Yitzchak Rabin
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