Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 103

Mon, 20 Jun 2011

• 1. Re: mixed shiur (Micha Berger)
• 2. tzurba me-rabbanan (Eli Turkel)
• 3. hand washing (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: mixed shiur (Saul Guberman)
• 5. Re: mixed shiur (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 6. Re: mixed shiur (Dorron Katzin)
• 7. Re: mixed shiur (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Tznius (T6...@aol.com)
• 9. Re: hand washing (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Poppers, Michael)
• 11. Re: mixed shiur (Dorron Katzin)
• 12. Re: hand washing (T6...@aol.com)
• 13. Re: Das Moshe or Das Yehudis (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Tehillim for a choleh (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: A Shabbos of months? or hours? or ? (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Ehrlachkeit, not Frumkeit (Micha Berger)

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 08:22:51AM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: question----is  there an issur  for  interdenominational learning 
: programs, when it means the non-O  clergy will teach?

I do not think you need to be as learned as R' Meir to figure out how
to learn from Acher, but I do see a halachic problem with this being a
shul program.

And why bother? Is there a shortage of O sources to learn from that you
need to go into the sifting business? And if you really need to hear
a new voice, listen to someone who sees things from the perspective of
another derekh. That's much of what makes Avodah so much fun!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

The site of tzurba me-rabbanan is
http://www.tzurba.org/

In fact many of the taped videos are from the shiur I attend. As I
said there are groups
around the world including Tunisia

As far as I know the material is in Hebrew

-- 
Eli Turkel

At 12:13 PM 6/20/2011, R. Eli Turkel wrote:

>For the ladies:
>He said that someone who has an expensive ring and is afraid of
>putting it down and losing it an idea is to pour a complete reviit on
>the hand then move the ring to another part of the finger followed by
>a second reviit.
>Of course if the ring is never removed even when baking then there is
>no need to remove the ring at all. The one woman who was attending the
>shiur said that she wears several rings some of which she removes when
>they would get dirty and some which stay on all the time.

I do not understand what you have written about a ring that is never 
removed, unless one is talking about an older woman. Aren't all rings 
removed when a woman goes to the mikvah?

My wife has pointed out that at times she sees woman put their rings 
in their mouths when they wash and then make a brocha before putting 
them on again.  Is this not questionable regarding the saying of a 
brocha with something in one's mouth.

YL


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On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:13, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> And why bother? Is there a shortage of O sources to learn from that you
> need to go into the sifting business? And if you really need to hear
> a new voice, listen to someone who sees things from the perspective of
> another derekh. That's much of what makes Avodah so much fun!
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>

My guess, is you would not get the heterodox congregants to attend if they
felt that their clergy was being snubbed by not being presenters.  This
Rabbi feels that it is worth the "risk" to have heterodox exposed to O.

Saul
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i wonder if in small communities, where  the O  shul is more fluid  --- 
members  floating across denominations; non-shomer shabbos membership-- 
and  at the left end of O , this is more prevalent ,without  asking 
specific daas tora.
if that's true,  the 1st case could  be risky --the non-O clergy could 
attract back their floaters ;  at the LW end of O , it may be an 
egalitarian view of judaism , a  non-buyin to the delegitimization of 
other branches of judaism -- a negation of the long-standing haredi 
approach....


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On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 11:13, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I do not think you need to be as learned as R' Meir to figure out how
> to learn from Acher, but I do see a halachic problem with this being a
> shul program.

> And why bother? Is there a shortage of O sources to learn from that you
> need to go into the sifting business? And if you really need to hear
> a new voice, listen to someone who sees things from the perspective of
> another derekh. That's much of what makes Avodah so much fun!

I think it may depend on the situation.  Sometimes, this involves an
opportunity to expose non-O Jews to O thinking.  Every situation is
difference.  It is within the judgment of the local O rabbi.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 11:16:48AM -0500, Dorron Katzin wrote:
: I think it may depend on the situation.  Sometimes, this involves an
: opportunity to expose non-O Jews to O thinking.  Every situation is
: difference.  It is within the judgment of the local O rabbi.

I obviously took the question to be about a primarily O-affiliated
(if not necessarily observant) audience and wondered why an O synagogue
would invite in non-O rabbis to speak.

As for the O guest in a mixed venue... My poseiq and I have to deal with
this question lemaaseh pretty often. Personally, my rule is whether one
is bringing Torah to people who would otherwise not have exposure, or
one is bringing a "choice of flavors" attitude to Judaism to people who
would otherwise come to a purely O experience. (IOW, before I agree I try
to answer the question: "If Aish/Ohr Samayach/Gateways/... were running
a program, would these people come?" And given that most audiences are
mixed, it boils down to guessing how many people will be coming from
each of those camps...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com"  <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Old TK:  > Personally I wish we could  all just be normal, wear skirts
> below the knee and not wear stockings at  all except when we
> want to look dressy.

RAM:  (I'm trying to  think of a respectful way to phrase this, without 
much success. Please don't be  offended.)

Am I to understand that if a posek defines "shok" as going to  the ankle, 
you would not consider his followers to be "normal"?

Akiva  Miller
 

>>>>>>
 
You mistakenly think I am dissing the other side, when in fact I am equally 
 dissing my own side.  I am saying that my own side -- the charedim, the RW 
 -- are forced to  wear hot sticky stockings which we are all now stuck  
with because it became das Yehudis aka the community norm.  Transparent  
skin-tight stockings -- is that normal?  Could any body part that /really/  has 
to be covered be covered with a transparent skin-tight covering?  It's  
obvious to me that those who require stockings, and then permit them to be  
transparent, at some deep level, don't /really/ believe that legs have to be  
covered.  (Those who require thick tights -- that at least makes some kind  of 
sense -- not that I'd ever want to actually dress like Satmar or Meah  
She'arim ladies.  If I have to wear stockings, I prefer to follow the psak  that 
doesn't really make sense, and wear transparent ones.)
 
Do I consider women -- in any camp -- to be "abnormal" if they follow   
their own poskim?  No, of course not! But the present-day psak (in both  camps) 
is not what normal used to be.  Wearing skirts to the floor and  wearing 
stockings 24/7 are both new norms, not the old norm.  (Unless you  want to go 
back to the 19th century for "the old norm," and consider the entire  20th 
century an aberration.  Well, I guess you could make that  case.....)
 
I wasn't saying, "I wish women would ignore their poskim."  I was  saying, 
"I wish poskim in all camps would change their psak."   No  harm in wishing, 
is there?  It's not as if I'm chas vesholom actually going  to go shopping 
without stockings any time soon.
 

--Toby Katz
================




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If a ring is never removed it then it is not a chatziza (separation)
and need not be removed for the Mikvah either.
In particular I know of cases where the finger swelled and the lady
could not remove the ring without sawing it off.
In that case she can still go to the mikvah.

Though in principle netillat yadaim and mikvah have the same laws in
practice we are more machmir for mikvah.
For netillat yadaim this became a heated discussion during the shiur.
The maggid shiur, R. Algazi from
tzurba derabban said that if the ring is only removed very
occasionally (eg for a mikvah once a month) then
it need not be removed for netillat yadaim.  Only if she does a lot of
baking and removes it at that time does she have to remove it also for
netillat yadaim.
Similar for bandages as long as they are not removed for a length of
time they are not a chatzizah

Poskim discuss the case of a house painter whose hands become very
soiled. The early poskim say that since a painter does not usually
remove the paint stains it is not a chatzizah. Some modern poskim say
that things have changed and today painters throughly clean their
hands every night and certainly for shabbat and so it is considered
that he cares. Other poskim disagree and say that at least during
working hours it is not a chatzizah.

ROY also paskens that vaseline is not a chatzizah since it is absorbed
into the skin and not on top. Several of the participants argued about
the physical facts. The maggid shiur was also unsure about a tatoo
that was no longer valued by the person. All the partipicants argued
that in that cas eit certainly is part of the body and not a
chatzizah.

As to your wife's question, I agree with her that saying a bracha with
a ring in the mouth is problematic. Whcih is why many women put in
down but then there is the danger of loss. Hence, the suggestion to
pour a full reviit twice on each hand and move the ring in between the
two pourings. BTW a reviit is not very much. As I mentioned a typical
natlan can hold 4 reviit


>
> I do not understand what you have written about a ring that is never
> removed, unless one is talking about an older woman. Aren't all rings
> removed when a woman goes to the mikvah?
>
> My wife has pointed out that at times she sees woman put their rings in
> their mouths when they wash and then make a brocha before putting them on
> again.? Is this not questionable regarding the saying of a brocha with
> something in one's mouth.
>
> YL
>
>
>



-- 
Eli Turkel

In Avodah V28n102, RDS noted that the minhag for the tzibbur to say "N'qadeish" seems contra SA (never mind GRA and MB) and wrote:
> Conclusion: Halocho is a free for all. There's a correct way to do
things and then there's the way everybody does it, which is OK since
everybody does it.
> - Danny, puzzled. <
This isn't the first or the last issue where g'dolim (or at least g'dolei
hapos'qim) insist that a certain derech is proper/l'halacha yet "nispasheit
haminhag" to do differently.  One of my favorite questions for the hamon am
is the widespread Eastern European (now also American) "minhag" for
bochurim not to be misateif batalis until marriage, despite its once being
only a Rhine-region custom (see the bottom of http://hebrewbooks
.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8918&;pgnum=129 ) which pos'qim (e.g. BH
17:4) strongly question at least re b'nei mitzva. 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:38, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I obviously took the question to be about a primarily O-affiliated
> (if not necessarily observant) audience and wondered why an O synagogue
> would invite in non-O rabbis to speak.

I am not sure in what context the question posed by R. Saul Newman arose.
However, it is quite clear that the situation in the essay he linked to is a
diverse group:
http://morethodoxy.org/201
1/06/17/reflections-on-our-community-shavuot-tikun-and-jewish-unity-by-rabb
i-hyim-shafner/
This past Tuesday night, the first night of Shavuot, over 100 people from
five different shuls and institutions, Reform, Conservative and Orthodox,
came together  to spend the night (some even made it all night!)  learning
Torah together; to stand again as we did at Sinai, no matter our
differences, as ?one person with one heart?.

I do not know Rabbi Shafner and do not know the location of his shul, etc.
I have met Rabbi Lopatin, another rabbi who comments on that site.  IIRC,
his (M)O shul also participates in a joint Shavuot program with non-O shuls
in the immediate area.

 
In a message dated 6/20/2011, llev...@stevens.edu writes:

My wife  has pointed out that at times she sees woman put their rings in 
their mouths  when they wash and then make a brocha before putting them on 
again.  Is  this not questionable regarding the saying of a brocha with 
something in one's  mouth. 

YL

 
 
>>>>>
 
I often see women putting their rings in their mouth to wash, but have  
never seen anyone say the bracha with a ring in her mouth -- although  there is 
this problem:  you're supposed to say the bracha before you dry  your 
hands, and most women would prefer to dry their hands before putting their  rings 
back on.  A lot of people dry their hands before making the bracha,  but 
that is not correct.  So where do you park your ring while you make the  
bracha, before you dry your hands?  I've never put my rings in my mouth,  
personally.  Leaving them near the sink does run a risk of losing  them.  The best 
thing is to take them off at the table and leave them  on your plate when 
you go to wash.
 
--Toby Katz
================






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On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 03:42:45PM -0400, Yitz . wrote:
: If a community starts keeping a "chumra" in tznius because of a mistaken
: belief that it is absolutely required, does that become 'das yehudis' or is
: it only something that is accepted as minhag or chumra that becomes das
: yehudis?

I think that if women wear it because it's fashionable it could still
become das yehudis (DY).

DY comes from the mishnah Kesuvos 7:6 (a/k/a 7:4), found on 72a.

Rashi (72a): shenahagu benos Yisrael ve'af al gav delo kesiva.


The Rambam appears to start by giving a generic answer, much like Rashis,
but then concludes with the specific list from the mishnah. Quoting
Ishus 24:11:
    Ve'eizo hi das yehudis?
    Hu minhag hatzeni'us shanahgu benos Yisrael.
    Ve'eilu hein hadevarim...

But it would seem to me the idiom itself refers to dressing less tzanu'ah
than everyone (of your gender) around you. Regardless of why they dress
that way.

E.g. to the Rambam this means wearing a veil (redid) not just a tichl
(mitpachas). But it obviously wasn't how we held where the norm was
otherwise. But the Rambam's redid was what the local Moslem women were
wearing, it has little to do with formal enactments or minhagim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 08:21:40PM -0500, Chanoch (Ken) Bloom wrote:
: > This reeks of cultic behaviour, especially as many are chanting words that
: > they have no clue to their meaning. This is especially true in women's
: > tehillim groups but not exclusively.

: It's a mishna in Sanhedrin 10:1 (perek Chelek), and it refers specifically
: to the verse quoted [... hamachalah asher samti veMitzrayim lo asim
: alekha, ki *Ani* Hashem rofe'ekha], in which the one who says it seemingly
: equates himself with god.

We discussed this last year
http://www.aishdas.org/
avodah/getindex.cgi?section=I#IS%20IT%20PERMITTED%20TO%20SAY%20TEHILIM%20FO
R%20A%20SICK%20PERSON
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/ge
tindex.cgi?section=I#IS%20IT%20PERMITTED%20TO%20SAY%20TEHILIM%20FOR%20A%20S
ICK
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=T#TEHILLIM%
20FOR%20THE%20SICK

or:
<http://bit.ly/jhOIom>
<http://bit.ly/mxHp6h> and
<http://bit.ly/ijDoyF>, respectively.


I think it goes to the heart of our discussions about the rules of segulos.

If Tehillim is seen as optional tefillah on behalf of a choleh or someone
or a community be'eis tzarah, I don't see how one can object.

If one sees it as a way to use metaphysical causality to force a particular
outcome, it rubs me the wrong way -- seems too similar to lechishah.


Lechishah is problematic even with other pesuqim. Rambam Hil' AZ 11:12.
Of course, you would expect the Rambam to be at the far end of this
kind of thing -- he bans the text on the back of most of our mezuzos
too. But it's also the SA YD 179 ("Shelo laKhashof, leOnein uleNacheish"),
se'if 8, where he doesn't specify which pasuq. According to the SA, if
done with spitting the person loses their cheileq le'olam haba, and if
without, he retains it -- but it's still assur. Therefore, in the case
of saqanas nefashos, "hakol mutar" (the Gra says this is from Tosafos).
The Rama (citing Rashi and the BY) prohibits only if the pasuq is in
lashon haqodesh. The Taz points out that the pasuq needn't even contain
sheim Hashem.

In any case, that would seem to play down the diyuq RCB makes from that
particular pasuq. The other rules -- spitting, language, etc... as well
as the SA's choice of placement in that particular se'if would seem to
make the issur of lechishah more about kishuf than sounding idolatrous.


Seems straightforward to me: Tefillah is laudible, encantations made of
pesuqim is assur. Are they being said to ask HQBH for Rachamim, or to
pull cosmic levers?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:06:17AM -0400, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
: Interesting thought.  Loosely following R' S.R. Hirsch's symbolism, the
: number seven is usually taken as the complete measure of a thing.

Not just RSRH, mequbalim in general. E.g. Maharal, Gevuros H', pereq
46. (Yes, I slipped in there my vote for Dayan Grunfeld's posisiotn
that RSRH's symbols are a presentation of a qabbalah-derived system
in a form palatable for German intellectuals.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:40:15PM +0300, Danny Schoemann wrote:
: Conclusion: Halocho is a free for all. There's a correct way to do
: things and then there's the way everybody does it, which is OK since
: everybody does it.

I would conclude that halakhah is a balancing act between conflicting
desiderata. You have rules, but they often "just" produce sets of pros
and cons that the poseiq then has to weigh (shiqul hadaas).

One such desirable is that there be cultural continuity (mimeticism).
Another is the textual strength of only replying the pesuqim in Qedushah.

If the norm to violate the text is widespread enough, it may be enough to
outweigh the fact that this is a second-best pesaq on the textual level.

But while that's grayer an "hairier" than straight algorithmic rules,
it's not a "free for all".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life isn't about finding yourself
mi...@aishdas.org        Life is about creating yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Bernard Shaw
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 12:16:41AM -0400, Poppers, Michael wrote:
: Indeed, when it comes to axioms, I prefer RYBreuer's "Glatt
: Yoshor, not 'glatt kosher'!" (Pace R'Micha -- I'll note your
: http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/03/rav-breuer-glatt-kosher
: -glatt-yoshor_21.shtml
: page, but I'll also note that RYB saw no need for 'glatt' meat if the
: entities being supervised were "yashar.")

I'm not sure what you mean, since the text is from "Rav Breuer: His
Life and Legacy" (via RYL), translated from RYB's essay, and not mine.
So, it couldn't have given more importance to glatt kosher than RYB did.

The question, though, is how to get beyond the sloganeering and into
actual cultural change. An essay is nice, an educational policy along
with a plan for their parents and other role models is far far better.



On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 12:52:36PM +0300, Danny Schoemann wrote:
: I love these new-era Chessed organisations. "I have this Chessed
: organisation. I need your time and/or money to run it. Meanwhile I'll
: start another one while you run mine - even though you don't care /
: are not cut out for this type of Chessed. But now I've done a double
: Chessed; I got you involved in a Chessed."

One of RSWolbe's examples of frumkeit is something the Alter of Slabotka
warns against. "'Ve'ahavta lerei'akha kamokha' -- that you love your
peer the way you love yourself: You don't love yourself for the sake of
a mitzah, but rather a simple love, THE SAME WAY one must love the peer."
RSW says this is entirely alien to frumkeit.

This is what yeilds the single or not-yet-fully-observant Shabbos guest
who leaves feeling like a cheftzah shel mitzvah.

...
:> How can we communicate these ideas? This is especially
:> difficult to people who don't appreciate that a problem even exists.

: [Predictably] I would suggest concentrating on learning and spreading
: Halocho. Simple old fashioned "no frills, no Chumros" Halocho. Seforim
: like the Kitzur SA fit the bill; learn it and relearn it and start
: becoming an expert in "the basics".

Or Chayei Adam (OC) with Chokhmas Adam (halakhah lemaaseh for non-dayanim
from the other three). Which for some of us has the advantage of having a
baseline closer to my own ancestors'. For that matter, in my grandfather's
world CA was the sefer he actually learned that way.

(I also find the QSA's coverage of melakhos Shabbos to be too spotty to
be of much use.)

http://www.aishdas.org/luach has a QSA Yomi checkbox, if you want to
follow a one year seder in QSA. I also did a 164 entry series on
Aspaqlaria on the CM-esque se'ifim of QSA. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/category/business-qsa>. Covers se'ifim
62-67, 165:12-14 (at the end of 185, where they are mentioned), and
179-190.

: Seforim like the Mishna Brura have the following "drawbacks":
...
: - Many of his non-OC Psakim are hard to find. Anybody know where the
: MB talks about the Halachot of haircuts and Payot? (Answer: 252:2 in
: the Biur Halocho *Afilu MiSapar Yisroel - Vol 3 page 30)

RDE does! <grin> Seriously, he did us the favor of making an index
(Yad Yisrael); it's worth picking one up. Also, R' Frankel's footnotes
to the QSA of Piseqi MB would tell you where to look.

None of the other problems (you forget there are other turim, the
difficulty of finging those dinim that are there that would otherwise
be in those turim, too many opinions, it's a commentary and not a clean
stand-alone work) don't apply to the AhS.

However, this next one:
: - There's way too much to learn and remember. Halachicly your memory
: is valid for a year, so you need something you can review yearly...

Really recommends something you can finish annually.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org        than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org   then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov


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