Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 102

Mon, 20 Jun 2011

• 1. Re: Tznius (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Re: Tznius (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: Tznius (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Tznius (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Poppers, Michael)
• 6. hand washing (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: Bittul, No Discernible Taste (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: A Shabbos of months? or hours? or ? (Joel C. Salomon)
• 9. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise! (Danny Schoemann)
• 11. Re: hand washing (Daniel Bukingolts)
• 12. Re: Tznius (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 13. Re: Tznius (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Tznius (Prof. Levine)
• 15. Tznius (for Men) (Prof. Levine)
• 16. Re: Tznius (menucha)
• 17. Tehillim for a choleh (Chanoch (Ken) Bloom)
• 18. mixed shiur (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)

R"n Toby Katz wrote:

> Personally I wish we could all just be normal, wear skirts
> below the knee and not wear stockings at all except when we
> want to look dressy.

(I'm trying to think of a respectful way to phrase this, without much success. Please don't be offended.)

Am I to understand that if a posek defines "shok" as going to the ankle, you would not consider his followers to be "normal"?

Akiva Miller

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And I wish that we would stop wishing that we would all do anything the same 
and we would stop trying to decide for others what is normal.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <T6...@aol.com>
>
> Personally I wish we could all just be normal, wear skirts below the
> knee and not wear stockings at all except when we want to look dressy.
> 

 

From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
>> My  understanding is that a woman's skirt is supposed to be long 
enough so that  when she sits down her knees do not show.  Yet it is 
the "fashion" here  in Flatbush for many women to wear skirts that 
just come to the knee when  they are standing.  This is what women do, 
but it is not correct, is  it?<<

YL

 
>>>>>
 
No, it is not correct.  Elbows and knees must be covered at all times,  
sitting and standing, wherever the woman can be seen by any man other than her  
closest male relatives.  In the case of a breach of clear halacha, you are  
correct that "what people do" is irrelevant.  There can never be a  
legitimate minhag in defiance of a universally agreed halacha.
 
Once the knee is covered, how long the skirt must be and whether  stockings 
must be worn, and how thick -- those are community-based issues that  may 
or may not have some written sources.
 
--Toby Katz
================




_____________________


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On 19/06/2011 4:27 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> And did women's stockings or socks even exist back then? They certainly
> didn't have nylon or polyester, I guess they could have made socks from
> wool, but did they? Does the Gemara ever talk about women (or men)
> wearing socks or stockings?

Socks certainly did exist in Roman times, at least wherever the climate
demanded them, both for men and for women.  If you ever visit your
brother in Toronto, I suggest a visit to the shoe museum, where you can
see a display on the history of socks, as well as a chalitza shoe.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

In Avodah V28n101, RDS asked:
>On a practical basis, I wonder how it works at Mincha; do people pay
>close attention to the chatzi kaddish after Ashrei, to see whether the
>chazan says "v'yatzmach purkanei", so that they'll know whether to say
>"N'kadesh" or "Nakdishach" at Kedusha? <<
> Huh? Why would the congregation be saying something which belongs to
the Chazzen? <
and RnLL responded:
> Every place I daven, everyone says the chazzan's parts in an 
undertone, after which the chazzan says them out loud. <
Like RDS, I grew up in a maqom where only the SHaTZ says (more precisely,
invites the tzibbur), "N'qadeish...!" but this is an example of minhag
hamaqom, and in many (most?) m'qomos the tzibbur says "N'qadeish" (agreed,
RnLL, that they should say this [and the subsequent non-pasuq] phrase in an
undertone -- hal'vai...) before the SHaTZ says it.  For those who are
interested, this subject is the very first one addressed by RBShH in
"Sharshei Minhag Ashk'naz."

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

<<- You forget there are another 3 Chalokim to Shulchan Aruch>>

I attend a shiur of "tzurba merabban" once a week and the goal is to
cover all parts of SA together with the appropriate gemara and modern
day poskim. There are formal booklets that are to be prepared before
the shiur and it is available on the internet (internationally there
are over 100 groups that have joined).

We are currently lerning hilchot neitalat yadaim and the rabbi
incharge of the program who is also a RY in Kerem BeYavne mentioned
that washing hands should use more than a reviit for a blessing for
paranassah. However, he stressed that this means one should use a
little more than a reviit without measuring. There is no extra benefit
to use 3 or 4 reviit rather than 1 1/2 or 2 and in fact one is wasting
water.  This is the same idea that was mentioned by Rabbi E. Teitz on
the list. He mentioned that they are now selling in Jerusalem natlas
that contain exactly 2 reviit rather thanl 4 of the usual cups.

For the ladies:
He said that someone who has an expensive ring and is afraid of
putting it down and losing it an idea is to pour a complete reviit on
the hand then move the ring to another part of the finger followed by
a second reviit.
Of course if the ring is never removed even when baking then there is
no need to remove the ring at all. The one woman who was attending the
shiur said that she wears several rings some of which she removes when
they would get dirty and some which stay on all the time.

-- 
Eli Turkel

RMR wrote:
> This is the issue that HaRav Auerbach is clarifying. Afilu BeElef Lo Battel
> means not that it is NEVER Battel but that it is not Battel as long as it is
> humanly discernible BY TASTE (what other device did Chazal have at their
> disposal?).

Actually, as he nowhere states this is an issue of taste, I would
first of all state this in more general terms: it? never battel - EVEN
WHEN LACKING DISCERNIBLE TASTE - as long as it is discernible by HUMAN
PERCEPTION.

Then, I think it becomes rather straightforward to imagine a different
type of perception at play here. Basically, if there is so little of
the offending substance that considering its presence becomes
ludicrous, since it is imperceptible (i.e. bread thrown into the
rather large Kineret), then it no longer makes any sense to say it ain
battel. As some Oved posted, if we look tightly enough, there is
chametz everywhere, on a microscopic scale. But Rabotai, you all agree
that we don check for bugs or chametz using a magnifying glass, so we
all agree that perception is key here. The rest follows.

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Meditating on the Tragedy in Japan
* Ode an das Pessachfest und den Fr?hling
* Denkmal an den deportierten l?rracher Juden
* Holiday Art
* Will the Judge of the Entire World Not Do Justice?
* When Theodicy Is No Theodicy

On 06/19/2011 08:37 PM, Michael ORR wrote:
> Judaism has a Shabbos of days (yom hashabbos), a Shabbos of weeks
> (shevuous), a Shabbos of years (shmitah), and a Shabbos of shemitahs
> (yovel).
> 
> I am wondering about whether there is any tradition of Shabbos with
> respect to other units of time.
> 
> A SHABBOS OF MONTHS
<snip>
> A SHABBOS OF HOURS

Interesting thought.  Loosely following R' S.R. Hirsch's symbolism, the
number seven is usually taken as the complete measure of a thing.
(E.g., in the tochacha, the repeated "sheva al chatoseichem".)  So in
things like days or years that don't have a "built-in" cycle, we can
collect them in groups of seven.  Months (almost) divide up a year, and
hours a day, so a "seven" of hours or of months isn't as meaningful.

(I'm phrasing this badly, I'm afraid.  Someone with a better grasp of
Rav Hirsch's thought might elaborate, or correct me if I'm on the
entirely wrong track.)

--Chesky

On 19/06/2011 9:57 AM, Danny Schoemann wrote:
>> On a practical basis, I wonder how it works at Mincha; do people pay
>> close attention to the chatzi kaddish after Ashrei, to see whether
>> the chazan says "v'yatzmach purkanei", so that they'll know whether
>> to say "N'kadesh" or "Nakdishach" at Kedusha?
>
> Huh? Why would the congregation be saying something which belongs to
> the Chazzen?

Because the minhag of the overwhelming majority of yidden, of all
nuschaos,is to say it.



-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

R' Michael Poppers wrote:
> Like RDS, I grew up in a maqom where only the SHaTZ says (more
> precisely, invites the tzibbur), "N'qadeish...!" but this is an
> example of minhag hamaqom, and in many (most?) m'qomos the tzibbur
> says "N'qadeish" (agreed, RnLL, that they should say this [and the
> subsequent non-pasuq] phrase in an undertone -- hal'vai...) before the
> SHaTZ says it. ?For those who are interested, this subject is the very
> first one addressed by RBShH in "Sharshei Minhag Ashk'naz." <

Wow! And here I was thinking that "we" (they) follow the MB and the
GR"O even against their ancestors Minhag. :-)

For the record, the Machaber (125:1) says: "The congregation does NOT
say Nakdishoch with the Shat"z, rather they keep quite and concentrate
on what he says, until he reaches Kedusha at which point they answer
Kodosh".

You can't get more explicit than that.

The MB agrees that this is the correct way to do is and quotes the
Vilna Gain as a backup. "(2) and some are LENIENT to say it with the
Shat"z and the correct Minhag is like the SA wrote, as with him follow
the Achronim and this was how the Gr"o did it. Nevertheless the custom
in our time is to say it with the Shat"z".

Conclusion: Halocho is a free for all. There's a correct way to do
things and then there's the way everybody does it, which is OK since
everybody does it.

- Danny, puzzled.

There are formal booklets that are to be prepared before
the shiur and it is available on the internet (internationally there
are over 100 groups that have joined).

--------



Thanks,
Danny
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From: T6...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tznius

Old TK:
> RZ in Israel and some Lubavitchers and some borderline RW in  America 
> often wear ankle-length skirts, but mainly for fashion.

> In the past ten or twenty years, there has been a kind of fashion 
> movement among certain groups of RZ in Israel who have been influenced 
> by the chareidi community.  

From: menucha _m...@inter.net.il_ (mailto:m...@inter.net.il) 
> sorry to confuse your speculation with the facts but the  reason we 
> wear long skirts is halachic. based on the more machmir opinion of  
> definition of shok.

"We"? You and how many others? Yes I know that there are RW RZ who
===========================
[SLB writes] I've actually posted about this in the past.
As someone who was there when the movement started, I have to say the
following.
Back in the late 1970s, a young RZ woman who was a spiritual leader started
wearing long skirts b/c "stockings don't cover anything" and there is the
opinion that the shok is the lower part of the leg and should be covered.

It never ever had anything to do with Chareidi, and we were the first
generation of the more RW of the RZ.

As someone who learned from her (I was in highschool. She is a year older
than me) - many of my friends and I took what she said seriously - and
started to lengthen our skirts, first below mid-calf (called "midi" at the
time) and later even longer.
I still wear my skirts longer than average to this day.

The young lady is now known as Rebbetzin Osnat Shiloh.

Shoshana L. Boublil

At 10:35 PM 6/19/2011, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>Once the knee is covered, how long the skirt must be and whether 
>stockings must be worn, and how thick -- those are community-based 
>issues that may or may not have some written sources.

There are written sources.  I posted one of them at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/areivim/covering_body.pdf YL
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At 08:53 PM 6/19/2011, Rn T. Katz wrote:

>Personally I wish we could all just be normal, wear skirts below the
>knee and not wear stockings at all except when we want to look dressy.

WADR, given the following from page 72 of the sefer at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/areivim/covering_body.pdf

"It is, however, the general practice of women in many Jewish 
communities to wear stockings."

there would seem to be many who would disagree with your standard of normal.


>And did women's stockings or socks even exist back then? They certainly
>didn't have nylon or polyester, I guess they could have made socks from
>wool, but did they? Does the Gemara ever talk about women (or men)
>wearing socks or stockings?

The following is from http://tinyurl.com/4ytyetg

Did you realize that women's stockings have been around for hundreds 
of years? It is generally agreed that they were extremely popular 
going back all the way to the early 16th century but there are some 
that say they go all the way back to ancient Egypt. These early 
stockings were not really stockings at all but more like the 
forerunners of panty hose as they were all together one garment. What 
we are covering in this article are actual stockings that end at the 
upper thigh and are usually held up by garter belts.

The first stockings that were made in the early 16th century were 
very think and not very elastic at all and were handmade by knitting. 
With the advent of the fabric industry becoming more diverse with the 
introduction of different fabrics like wool, nylon, cotton, and silk 
the stockings began to be made from more different blends. Towards 
the end of the century William Lee who was a member of the clergy 
came up with the first knitting machine which resulted in the mass 
production of hosiery, especially those made of cotton. These early 
stockings were made for function, not sexiness.

YL

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At 08:53 PM 6/19/2011, R. Akiva Miller wrote:

>But as regard tznius in clothing, my understanding is that there is 
>very little to talk about regarding the men. The halachic minimum is 
>covered by a bathing suit, and there is no concept parallel to "das 
>yehudis" for the men. Or am I mistaken?
In light of what I have posted regarding what RSRH writes about the 
role that clothing is supposed to play in regard to separating humans 
from animals, and the fact that clothing is supposed to raise us to a 
closer relationship with HaShem, I do not think that this is correct.

True, a bathing suit is all that is needed when one goes 
swimming,  but I do think that there is more to this issue.  Are 
dirty, torn jeans and a T-shirt with an "in your face" slogan on it 
proper dress for a Jewish man?  I think not.  Is it OK for men to 
wear shorts?  According to some it is not.  What about for 
davening?  What is the "proper" dress for a man when he davens or 
says a brocha.  IIRC the MB says something about wearing a hat for 
davening, but I may be mistaken.

Would it be appropriate for a Jewish man to wear a red suit?  Is it 
"proper" for a Jewish man to look like Charley Chaplin (See 
http://tinyurl.com/44sdops )?  To wear a Chairman Mao suit?  (See 
http://tinyurl.com/439g75z )  You get my drift I am sure.

It seems to me that there is a lot to tznius for men, but it is 
ignored.  Where are the guidelines?  There are plenty for women.  Why 
is this the case?

Yitzchok Levine 
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it seems according to the Rambam (PHM Kilaiim 9,7) that the mishna is 
referring to hosiery.
menucha

> On 19/06/2011 4:27 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> And did women's stockings or socks even exist back then? They certainly
>> didn't have nylon or polyester, I guess they could have made socks from
>> wool, but did they? Does the Gemara ever talk about women (or men)
>> wearing socks or stockings?
>
>
> S

[Originally posted to Areivim; reposted here with permission. I changed
the subject line and replaced the attempt to email Hebrew to the list
with transliteration. The emphasis on "*Ani*" was in the original. -micha]

> Would somebody please explain to me why we are asked to do something
> specifically banned in the Talmud and the codes, that is the chanting of
> versus for a sick person?(Shavous 15B, I think)

> Chazal created a beautiful prayer that we say thrice daily for such
> purposes.

> This reeks of cultic behaviour, especially as many are chanting words that
> they have no clue to their meaning. This is especially true in women's
> tehillim groups but not exclusively.

It's a mishna in Sanhedrin 10:1 (perek Chelek), and it refers specifically
to the verse quoted [... hamachalah asher samti veMitzrayim lo asim
alekha, ki *Ani* Hashem rofe'ekha], in which the one who says it seemingly
equates himself with god.

--Ken

http://morethodoxy.org/201
1/06/17/reflections-on-our-community-shavuot-tikun-and-jewish-unity-by-rabb
i-hyim-shafner/ 

excerpt--- I do not believe it is forbidden to read or hear what other 
Jews believe and often I find they have much to teach us 


question----is  there an issur  for  interdenominational learning 
programs, when it means the non-O  clergy will teach?

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