Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 86

Wed, 01 Jun 2011

• 1. Re: border issues.....pikauch nefesh?? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Melech (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 3. Re: ein shliach le-dvar averiah (Doron Beckerman)
• 4. Re: Melech (menucha)
• 5. Re: Upsherin (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 6. Re: Melech (Zev Sero)
• 7. every Machlokes was resolved and the resolution became Torah MiSinai (Meir Rabi)
• 8. Re: border issues.....pikauch nefesh?? (Zev Sero)
• 9. Innocent Unsuspecting Drug Mules, Ein SheLiAch LeDeVar Aveira (Meir Rabi)
• 10. the godfather is innocent, should you want to punish him? (Meir Rabi)
• 11. Re: women wearing pants (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 12. ir shel zahav (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 13. Re: ir shel zahav (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Ein shliach lidvar aveirah (eliez...@aol.com)
• 15. Re: ein shliach le-dvar averiah (Daniel M. Israel)
• 16. Re: Ein shliach lidvar aveirah (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: the godfather is innocent, should you want to punish him? (Zev Sero)

On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 09:38:04AM -0400, Hankman wrote:
: I think we might be glossing over a central matter as a practical issue
: in our day. What exactly is the definition of the "border" in today's
: geography and demography. Is it the kedusha rishona or the k. shenia
: of the olei Bavel, or that of the kivush of the Chashmonaim....     Or
: is it some current line we might care to define by modern realities of
: war (1948, 1967, 1973 etc), demography (of which period?) or National
: and/or International law (Turk Emp., Balfour, Mandate, Israeli Law,
: UN resolutions or current IL?)...

It has been assumed here that we're really talking about safety,
that protecting arei sefar is actually a triage approach to saqanas
nefashos. What would maximize the probability of survival for the
most Jews? (Without unduly risking others.)

In which case, it's a matter for generals and perhaps politicians (if you
can find one you feel comfortable assuming can give an objective answer)
to decide, nothing to do with qedushah, with historical or legal borders,
etc...

And yes, it would mean that
:                ... also then further entangle the issue of self defense
: in Chutz La'Aretz becoming a milchemes mitzva if for example the Jews of
: say BoroPark were under siege as opposed to the Jews of a kibbutz near
: Gaza....

I like the idea of this, since it would make such milkhamos far easier to
understand in terms of native (intuitive) ethics. You can risk m lives to
save n > m lives. But without a source, that doesn't mean it's correct.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 42nd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Yesod: Why is self-control and
Fax: (270) 514-1507       reliability crucial for universal brotherhood?

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> RHS (in the shiur of my other post) took it for granted that
> Melech means a Jewish government in EY.  He thus felt that the
> first of the requirements for building a new bet hamikdash has
> been fulfilled.
>
> He further speculated that when Esther's son became king there
> was a Jewish King over the land of Israel which affected some
> halachot. When Esther dies Darius lost all contact with Jews and
> could no longer be considered a Jewish king.

Why would "contact with Jews" be a criterion for the definition of "Jewish
king"? I would expect the definition to be either genetic/conversion-based
(in which case he would be a Jewish king even after he lost contact with
the Jews), or it would also be dependent on Shmiras Hamitzvos, like when we
define Jewishness for wine, or minyan, or many other situations (in which
case his status would be unchanged before and after Esther's death, unless
he actually converted out).

It would help if I knew more about Darius. *Did* he convert out? Did he
know of his Jewishness at all? If he did, did he accept that and observe
mitzvos? Or did he see himself as a non-Jewish king who was good to the
Jews because his mother was Jewish?

(Incidentally, my chavrusa raised an interesting question this past
Shabbos: According to those who say that Esther and Mordechai were married,
and that because of "karka olam" she did not become assur to Mordechai,
then is it possible that Darius was really Mordechai's son? Do any
meforshim suggest this?)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Groupon&#8482 Official Site
1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city's best!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4de527726344813d122st03vuc

There is a Machlokes Tosfos-Ritva whether this rule applies where the
Shaliach does not know he is doing an Aveirah. See Tosfos Kiddushin 42b s.v.
Amai Ma'al.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110531/17799708/attachment-0001.htm>

> megillah 15a- asher lo chadat vechaasher avadity avadity- this was the
> turning point between ones and ratzon and this is where she becomes
> asur to Mordechai (see Torah Temima there) With that the view that
> vatetchalchal - hipila ubara- her last chance at Mordechai's child....
>  
>
menucha

>(Incidentally, my chavrusa raised an interesting question this past
>Shabbos: According to those who say that Esther and Mordechai were
>married, and that because of "karka olam" she did not become assur to
>Mordechai, then is it possible that Darius was really Mordechai's son?
>Do any meforshim suggest this?)
>
>Akiva Miller
>
>  
>

> From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Upsherin

> RMB's statement that "Upsherin is a generation-old minhag for many
> Ashkenazim" is therefore true.  For instance, it's probably been in
> my family for at least 7 generations, perhaps more.

[SLB writes] I find it highly appropriate to discuss the minhag of Upsherin
or Xhalakeh as it is known davka tonight - 28 of Iyar.

28 of Iyar is the yahrzeit of Shmuel HaNavi.

There are traditions that state that it was customary to take young boys who
reached their 3rd year to Kever Shmuel HaNavi to have their first hair cut,
and the weight of the hair was given in silver (value) towards the upkeep of
the place (~1570).

It is also appropriate that davka on this Yarhzeit - Yerushalayim returned
to Jewish hands.

If you check in Divrei HaYmim 28 you will find that the David gives detailed
instructions to Shlomo on how to build everything. The instructions are
written down "HaKol BichTav MiYad Hashem".  The tradition is that the
instructions were written down by Shmuel HaNavi.

Chag Sameach, may we bring Yerushalayim shel Matta closer to Yerushalayim
shel Ma'ala so that we will see the Mikdash bimhera Beyameinu, amen.

Shoshana L. Boublil

 

On 31/05/2011 3:35 PM, menucha wrote:
>
>> megillah 15a- asher lo chadat vechaasher avadity avadity- this was
>> the turning point between ones and ratzon and this is where she
>> becomes asur to Mordechai (see Torah Temima there) With that the
>> view that vatetchalchal - hipila ubara- her last chance at
>> Mordechai's child....

Unless Darius was already born by then.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

While the Sanhedrin existed until the later years of the 2nd Bet HaMikdash,
every Machlokes was resolved and the resolution became Torah MiSinai

What does that mean, "became Torah MiSinai"?
It can not mean that it could no longer be contested and disputed, that goes
against RaMBaM that all rulings of BD (not Gezeiros Takanos or Minhagim or
SeYagim) are open to review and the present BD has a duty to provide
guidance for its generation and the people of this generation are not
permitted to follow the rulings of any preceding BD but MUST follow the
rulings of THEIR BD.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110601/0aa43133/attachment-0001.htm>

On 31/05/2011 9:38 AM, Hankman wrote:
> R'nLL wrote:
> Defending borders is
> halakhically an issue of self-defense. Expanding borders is kibush
> ha-aretz, but I don't know of any source that says defending border
> towns is anything but an unqualified obligation.


> CM comments:
> I think we might be glossing over a central matter as a practical
> issue in our day. What exactly is the definition of the "border" in
> today's geography and demography.

How is that even a question?  The border is well-marked.  Our soldiers
are on one side and theirs are on the other!


> Is it the kedusha rishona or the
> k. shenia of the olei Bavel, or that of the kivush of the Chashmonaim

What has it got to do with any of those?


> If it is the mere presence of Jews in some particular area then you
> conflate the border issue to the self defense issue

The border issue *is* about self-defense.  There is no border issue
apart from it.


> and also then further entangle the issue of self defense in Chutz
>  La'Aretz becoming a milchemes mitzva if for example the Jews of say
>  BoroPark were under siege as opposed to the Jews of a kibbutz near Gaza.

How is that "entanglement"?  Who ever claimed there was a difference
in this regard between Gaza and Borough Park?  The whole din of "arei
hasfar" is about Nehardea, not EY!

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

R Z Sero suggested that
He's guilty of lifnei iver, but not of the actual  crime.

I wonder if it might be likened to sending a fire in the hands of a Cheresh
Shota or Katan BK HaKones, where the sender is Pattur only if he sent a coal
that is expected to extinguish fairly quickly and requires a significant
ingenuity to fan it to a flame that can cause damage. If however he sends
them with a flame or I imagine a box or book of matches, he is certainly
Chayav. See RaMBaM and ShA.

Although the cases are not identical I believe that if anything the
responsibility in the case of someone who puts such innocents at risk is all
the greater since it is not others who are being put at risk or damaged but
the innocent patsy. As the Gemara says about GeRama, AFILU - not only where
another fellow removed the shield but even if the thrower of the spear
removes the shield will the thrower be Pattur. Clearly the heavier act of
involvement is an argument to make the instigator more likely to be guilty
and punishable through BDin.
The reason that the spear thrower is Pattur is that his action is COMPLETELY
impotent since the shield is protecting the target. Unlike sending an active
fire in the hands of a ChShKatan.
Is it not reasonable that sending drugs in the hands of unsuspecting
innocents who are transporting it to and through countries that apply the
death penalty for such violations is far worse? And is indeed guilty and
punishable through the BD?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110601/f4d1b6ca/attachment-0001.htm>

R Z Sero suggests that
According to dinei Torah the godfather is indeed innocent,

Not being punishable within the framework of BD does not mean that the
gfather is innocent. Is he not Chayev BeDinei Shomayim?

R Zev adds
so why should you want to punish him?

I do not quite know if R Zev meant this, but his comment can be read as, it
is not right to want to punish someone who is not transgressing the letter
of the Law.   I disagree. Should we not want to punish people who are evil?
Ohavey HaShem must hate evil and I assume this includes wanting to punish
them.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110601/42dec73c/attachment-0001.htm>

Thank you very much! Available at:

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21434&;st=&pgnum=212 
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20023&;st=&pgnum=141 

 respectively.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rabbi Y. H. Henkin
Sent: 05/30/11 03:30 PM
To: avodah
Subject: [Avodah] women wearing pants

See Bnei Banim vol. 2 p. 211 par. 38, and vol. 4 p. 141 (concerning pisuk raglayim).
 Yehuda Henkin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110531/250fb609/attachment-0001.htm>

http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?/topic/27336-defining-the-je
rusalem-of-gold/ 

http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2011/05/31/jerusalem-of-gold/ 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110601/08bcbad1/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 07:58:18AM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?/topic/27336-defining-th
: e-jerusalem-of-gold/ 
: http://menachemmendel.net/blog/2011/05/31/jerusalem-of-gold/ 

Why do you need to cite "bible scholar Shalom Paul" from the Jeruslem
Post of the late 1960s?

In Sotah 9:14, we learn that the Romans under Titus prohibited Jewish
brides from wearing crowns (ataros kalos), and the gemara (49b) tells
you these crowns were "ir shel zahav". Similarly is is assur to wear one on
Shabbos (Shabbos 59b), R Meir says chayav, Chakhamim -- patur aval assur.

In Nadarim 50a, R' Aqiva promised a "keser shel zahav" to his wife,
if they should ever get wealthy, and eventually does. Avos deR' Nasan
(Schechter version 2, ch 12) also also mentions that people mocked R'
Aqiva for buying it.

There were primary two items of jewelry in those days, a solid tiara, and
a necklace made of multiple links. They were darshened as representing
the ideal woman -- many maasim tovim, but one machashavah above all.

At some point in the past I posted a source for that last thought,
but I can't find it now.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 43rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Malchus: How does unity result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           good for all mankind?

Regarding tricking someone into sinning, and the heightened punishment for
doing so, see Rambam in 10 Kilayim 1 and Sifrei and Chasam Sofer in
Bamidbar 30:16.  The bottom line is that some hold that unlike shli'ach
lidvar aveira where the shliach is shogeg but could have known, and unlike
lifnei iver, where the victim should have been more distrustful, there are
cases where the malefactor stands in the shoes of his victim, at least in
dinei shamaim. This is discussed at http://havolim.blogspot.com/2010/07/mattos-bamidbar-3016-causin
g-others-to.html
Eliezer Eisenberg


 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110601/6a93c01f/attachment-0001.htm>

Quoting Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>:
> On 30/05/2011 8:42 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>> In addition to lifnei iver, he is guilty of something much worse:  
>> by subjecting them to the rigors of Japanese prisons, he put those  
>> boys' lives at risk. What is the penalty for someone who delivers a  
>> fellow Jew into captivity among the goyim? And at the risk of their  
>> lives?

> As the man said, "ein shliach lidvar aveira".  And in any case, it's
> a very far grama; he wasn't the one who informed on them, after all.
> I don't see how he could be chayav bedinei adam, for anything except
> lifnei iver.

But RnTK's claim has nothing to do with shlichus!  And I don't know if  
the halacha would credit your presumption that the risk was remote.   
So the question is, what is the halachic status of someone who puts  
someone else's life at risk?  For example, what if anything, would be  
the punishment for someone who blindly throws rocks into an area in  
which someone is standing?  Is he chayiv for anything if he doesn't  
actually hit the person?

[Email #2. -micha]

Quoting Doron Beckerman <beck...@gmail.com>:
> There is a Machlokes Tosfos-Ritva whether this rule applies where the
> Shaliach does not know he is doing an Aveirah. See Tosfos Kiddushin 42b s.v.
> Amai Ma'al.

Maybe I missed a step.  In what case under discussion did the shaliach  
not know there was an aveirah involved?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
dan...@cornell.edu

On 1/06/2011 12:13 PM, eliez...@aol.com wrote:
> unlike lifnei iver, where the victim should have been more distrustful

Why should a blind person suspect that someone has put a brick in his
path?  Why should someone ignorant on some topic suspect that the advice
a kind "expert" has given him is bad?  (I am using lifnei iver in its
original sense, as per Rashi, not in the sense of leading someone to sin.
I don't believe carrying the shipment to Japan was a sin, but it was a
terrible idea, and the person who gave them that idea transgressed lifnei
iver, since he knew they were as ignorant of the danger as a blind man is
ignorant of what lies in his path.)

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On 1/06/2011 3:50 AM, Meir Rabi wrote:
> R Z Sero suggests that
> According to dinei Torah the godfather is indeed innocent,
>
> Not being punishable within the framework of BD does not mean that
> the gfather is innocent. Is he not Chayev BeDinei Shomayim?

I don't know.  Is he?  Ein shliach lidvar avera is not just a technical
rule, it's a moral truth.  People are moral agents.  A mesis umediach
is guilty for the attempt, not for succeeding;the Torah says "ki vikesh".
I'm not aware that he's more guilty if he succeeds than if he fails.


> R Zev adds
> so why should you want to punish him?
>
> I do not quite know if R Zev meant this, but his comment can be read as,
> it is not right to want to punish someone who is not transgressing the
> letter of the Law.   I disagree. Should we not want to punish people who
> are evil? Ohavey HaShem must hate evil and I assume this includes wanting
> to punish them.

Really?  Even evil people who have done nothing wrong?  Just for being
evil in their hearts?  How do you justify that? What are you punishing
them *for*?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 28, Issue 86
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."