Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 76

Wed, 11 May 2011

• 1. Re: Shabbos invite and using eruv (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Shabbos invite and using eruv (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. Re: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv when You Don't (David Riceman)
• 5. Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: Shabbos invite and using eruv (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv when You Don't (Harry Maryles)
• 8. Re: binfol oyivkha (Simon Krysl)
• 9. Re: binfol oyivkha (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 10. Re: binfol oyivkha (Micha Berger)
• 11. Chasam Sofer Responds to Rav Yaakov Emden, Defends the Singular Ashkenazic Kaddish (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Picture of Bin Ladin - a thought (Danny Schoemann)
• 13. Ksav Sofer's First Meeting with RSRH (Prof. Levine)
• 14. manuscript tool (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)

 If they don't have to transgress an
    Issur to do what you are asking or tempting them to do, but choose
    to do so, there is no Lifnei Iver.

    ... Therefore, if the invitation included an offer to accommodate
    them for the whole Shabbos, even if there is a high probability that
    they would decline and drive on Shabbos, it is Muttar and proper to
    invite them. To the best of my knowledge, this is is what most Kiruv
    organizations do when planning a Shabbos event. They will write on
    the flier or invitation that "Shabbos accommodations are available",
    thereby bypassing any potential problem of Lifnei Iver.

 From <http://jemsem.org/whos-who>, so that you know the author isn't L (nor borderline C):
    Rabbi Aaron Tendler serves on the faculties of Yeshivas Ner Yisroel
    and Maalot Seminary in Baltimore, MD. He also is the Rabbi of the
    Etz Chaim Center for Jewish Living and Learning in Owings Mills, MD.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
=======================================================
So if they call you up and say, "hey I'm planning on driving do you still want me to come?", what is the answer?
KT
Joel Rich
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isn't it  interesting that  in most circles ---although maybe this is 
wrong  , such issues  don't  get  people worked up ie  they will allow 
others to hold  by their  psakim without  ridicule  [ well, maybe not 
totally true as to eruv dissenters] ;

 yet , when it  comes to hashkafic issues ----whether  religious zionism, 
age-of-the-earth etc   it is presumed that someone whose edah tinks 
different than theirs is subject to ridicule, hatred , cherem etc...

is it because we are a doxy religion more than a praxy religion ?  or is 
my premise wrong ? 


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R' Zev Sero wrote:

> Even if your strict position were in accordance with the
> majority of poskim, and the eruv were kosher only according to
> a minority or even a daas yochid, they would have the right al
> pi torah to follow that minority opinion and carry, and thus
> there would be no issue of "lifnei iver".

I understand that they have the right to follow whichever posek they choose
to follow. This would apply to any time they are on their own, choosing to
do whatever their posek allows.

But if I hold that m'ikar hadin it is assur, why am I not violating lifnei iver when I ask them to do it?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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RMB:
> If the melakhah is violated twice beheelem achas one can get kaparah with
> just one qorban. But does that mean for sure that the cheit is the same
> than if they only did it once? Is it safe to assume that the number of
> qorbanos chatas implies the number of shegagos?

Rambam PhM Shabbas 7:1 "sheharei ain b'yado ela shegagah ahas b'ikar 
hamitzva".  Similarly in H. Shegagos 7:2 "shehakol shegagah ahas hi".

David Riceman

At 01:27 PM 5/10/2011, R. Akiva Miller wrote:
>*WHY* do you not rely on the eruvin?

Because all the rabbonim whom I followed at the time of its 
institution said that one should not rely on it.

>If you feel that the basic halacha is that the eruvin are mutar, but 
>for whatever reason you choose to be machmir, then what's wrong with 
>inviting that couple? They're not doing anything wrong!

There are poskim who hold that the Eruvim in Flatbush are valid and 
there are fine Jews who do rely upon it. I have no problem with them 
using the Eruv, and would never say anything to anyone who does rely 
on the Eruv that they should not.

>But if you feel that the basic halacha is that it is assur to carry 
>even within these eruvin, despite the lenient poskim who allow it, 
>then how can you possibly suggest that they do something which you 
>hold to be assur?

It is not a question of feelings.  There are those who say yeah and 
those who nay.  I belong to the Nay camp, but again would never 
criticize anyone who belongs to the Yeah camp.  S/he has poskim to rely upon.

[Email #2. -micha]

At 01:27 PM 5/10/2011, Zev Sero wrote:
>On 9/05/2011 4:46 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> We have several Eruvim here in Flatbush. I do not rely on any of them.

>> Question: May I invite a couple who I know will wheel their baby 
>> in a stroller to eat at my house on Shabbos? They, of course, do 
>> rely on the Flatbush eruv [at least one of them].

>Of course you may.  Even if your strict position were in accordance with
>the majority of poskim, and the eruv were kosher only according to a
>minority or even a daas yochid, they would have the right al pi torah to
>follow that minority opinion and carry, and thus there would be no issue
>of "lifnei iver".   How much more so when the eruvin are kosher according
>to the majority of poskim, and it's merely that you are being a baal nefesh
>and being machmir on yourself by being chosesh for a minority position;
>in such a case not only may you invite them but you may even ask them to
>carry something for you.

I really no longer know the count of how many poskim say one can use 
the Eruv and how many say one cannot.  Almost all of the Young Israel 
shuls in Flatbush announce every Friday night either "The Eruv is up 
or the Eruv is down."

However, at the time that the Eruv was established not long after Reb 
Moshe paskened that one could not make an Eruv in Flatbush,  the 
overwhelming majority of Chareidi Poskim said that it was 
invalid.  Even R. Avigdor Miller, who almost never signed on 
anything, signed a proclamation saying the Eruv was invalid.  Rav 
Schwab who resided in Manhattan signed this also.  To this day R. 
Yisroel Belsky and R. Hillel David hold that one cannot make an Eruv 
in Flatbush.  Both of them are recognized poskim.

So it is not that I have chosen the minority position.  When the Eruv 
controversy first erupted here in Brooklyn, I decided to abide by 
what was then the majority position and would not use the Eruv in 
Flatbush and still do not.

I really would not be comfortable asking someone to carry something 
for me on Shabbos.  Indeed, I do my best to never expect others to do 
what I will not do.

See 
http://tinyurl.com/3k323o3 
<http://eruvonline.blogspot.com/2010/02/rav-dovid-feinstein-
shlita-and-flatbush.html>

HaRav Dovid Feinstein Shlita and the Flatbush Eruv Controversy  where it says

"In fact, Rav Tuvia Goldstein zt"l Rosh Yeshiva of Emek Halacha and a 
Talmid/Chaver of Rav Moshe Feinstein zt"l, said on numerous occasions 
that based on the current situation Rav Moshe himself would have 
allowed an eruv. [Furthermore it must be stressed that since Rav 
Moshe's shitos in eruvin are admittedly chiddushim (ibid., 1:139:5) 
it is unreasonable to create additional stringencies and extend his 
chiddushim further because one believes that Rav Moshe would always 
have prohibited an eruv.]

Consequentially, there is no reason at all to argue that Rav Moshe 
zt"l would object to the current eruvin in Brooklyn."

[Email #3]

At 01:27 PM 5/10/2011, R. Akiva Miller wrote:
>*WHY* do you not rely on the eruvin?

Because all the rabbonim whom I followed at the time of its 
institution said that one should not rely on it.

>If you feel that the basic halacha is that the eruvin are mutar, but 
>for whatever reason you choose to be machmir, then what's wrong with 
>inviting that couple? They're not doing anything wrong!

There are poskim who hold that the Eruvim in Flatbush are valid and 
there are fine Jews who do rely upon it. I have no problem with them 
using the Eruv, and would never say anything to anyone who does rely 
on the Eruv that they should not.

>But if you feel that the basic halacha is that it is assur to carry 
>even within these eruvin, despite the lenient poskim who allow it, 
>then how can you possibly suggest that they do something which you 
>hold to be assur?

It is not a question of feelings.  There are those who say yeah and 
those who nay.  I belong to the Nay camp, but again would never 
criticize anyone who belongs to the Yeah camp.  S/he has poskim to rely upon.

[Email #4]

At 01:27 PM 5/10/2011, M. Cohen wrote:
>Ie
>can I give a food item with a hechsher that I don't use, to some who does?

It is not a question of can I, because on certainly can.  It is a 
question of "will I"  and I would not.

>Can I allow my wife carry in an eruv that I don't rely on?

I can, but I would not.

>Can I give an item of clothing that my community doesn't wear, to someone
>who wears such items?

Not sure what you mean by this.  Are you referring to something that 
is not Tznius.  If so, then I would not.

>If you hold it to be a chumrah, then another doesn't have to hold of your
>chumros.

I do not expect anyone to hold my standards except for me.

At 01:27 PM 5/10/2011, R. Micha wrote:
>According to R' Dovid Cohen, circa early 80s, RMF prefaced his answer with
>a disclaimer. RMF tried to pursuade the sho'el to go to someone else,
>acknowledging that his pesaq would based on a shitah of his that was a
>daas yachid, and they were better off going elsewhere. But the sho'el
>insisted that the eruv needed RMF's input to get off the ground anyway...

>RDC at the time said that much of his opposition to the Flatbush eruv
>was from the dinim of kavod harav, not hilkhos eruvin.

>And, it would seem that RMF did consider it a chumerah, in at least one
>sense of the word chumerah.

Reb Micha.

Here is an historical footnote that I know you will enjoy, because it 
involves Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Ehrenpreis, Z"L.   Leon, as he was known, 
told me proudly that he and his wife were responsible for Reb Moshe 
saying that one could not make an Eruv in Flatbush for two reasons.

1.  Originally Reb Moshe was told that the distance from Prospect 
Park to Sheepshead Bay was 12 miles.  When Leon heard this, he said, 
"No it is not. I run this distance a few times a week and it is no 
more than 6 miles."

2.  Secondly, Leon told me that he and his wife stood on Ocean 
Parkway at the height of traffic and counted the number of cars that 
went by.  According to their count more than 600,000 people traveled 
on Ocean Parkway at this time.

"I am responsible for Reb Moshe saying one cannot make an Eruv in 
Brooklyn," he told me more than once.

Eliezer was indeed a unique and great man, and he is missed.  YL

[Email #5]

At 01:27 PM 5/10/2011, Zev Sero wrote:
>On 10/05/2011 9:46 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:

>> It it not at all clear to me that not using the Eruv in Flatbush is a
>> chumra. Reb Moshe paskened that one could not make an eruv in Brooklyn,
>> and Rav Belsky holds the same thing, namely, that none of the Eruvim
>> in Brooklyn are valid.

>So who says the halacha is like them?

They do , of course, and add in R. Hillel David another recognized 
who says the Eruv is no good.

>   Why must your guest follow their psak?

Who ever said they have to?  I have no criticism of those who use the 
Eruv, I just am a bit uncomfortable about being the catalyst for 
someone to do this.

When it comes to kashrus I have my own particular standards on use 
only certain hashgachos.  I have no problem with those who rely on 
other hashgachos, but I would never give them something to eat from a 
hashgacho I do not rely upon.

YL

On 10/05/2011 11:27 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Chabad has a practice of running programs on Shabbos in
> which they know that people will violate Shabbos to attend
> them. Now they may offer housing for those who opt for it,
> but a very large percentage of non-religious people do not. See
> http://www.lubavitch.com/top.html?ixobject=2019068for one example.

That's a very strange example to give, since it's almost certain that not
a single person has ever violated Shabbos in order to attend this event!

[Email #2. -micha]

On 10/05/2011 8:40 AM, M Cohen wrote:
> The answer is the same to all for these types of questions:
> If you hold it is asur midinah, then you can't be machshil another in this
> isur.
> If you hold it to be a chumrah, then another doesn't have to hold of your
> chumros.

The SA paskens that a certain kind of belly fat is chelev d'oraisa, but
mentions that there are certain Jews in the Rhineland who rely on a minority
opinion that permits it, and paskens that one may nevertheless eat at their
homes.  Question: may one give that fat to such a Jew, knowing that he will
follow his shita and eat it?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

My two cents:
On Mon, 5/9/11, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> We have several Eruvim here in Flatbush. I do not rely on any of them.

> Question: May I invite a couple whom I know will wheel their baby in
> a stroller to eat at my house on Shabbos?? They, of course, do rely on
> the Flatbush eruv [at least one of them].

I think it depends on what the problem with the Eruv is. If it is one
of a P'sul L'Chol HaDeios, then you are being Machshil this couple with
your invitation. If OTOH it is just a question of Chumra but that it is
at least Kosher according to one Deiah (mekil though it may be) then I
see no probelm with it.

[Email #2. -micha]

On Tue, 5/10/11, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 10/05/2011 9:46 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> It it not at all clear to me that not using the Eruv in Flatbush is a
>> chumra. Reb Moshe paskened that one could not make an eruv in Brooklyn,
>> and Rav Belsky holds the same thing, namely, that none of the Eruvim
>> in Brooklyn are valid.

> So who says the halacha is like them? Why must your guest follow their
> psak? Even if they were the majority, your guest would have every right
> to follow a minority psak that the eruv is kosher; kol shekein when their
> position is that of a distinct minority of poskim. R Moshe openly
> acknowledged that he was a daas yochid on this matter, and that nobody
> had to obey him.

It's not as simple as that.

Rav Aahron Soloveichik held that anyone who uses the Chicago Eruv in
West Rogers Park is being Mechalel Shabbos D'Oraisa B'Shogeg. And that
those who gave a Hechsher to it are Machti Es HaRabbim B'Meizid. I heard
him say it B'Rabbim shortly before his death.

Nonetheless the Chicago Eruv has some very Chashuveh Rabbanim involved
with it who consulted with world class Poskim and determined that it is
a Kosher Eruv based on the Shittah of R' Moshe. This includes R' Dovid
Feinstein who is quoted as saying that his father would have approved
the Eruv.

Rav Ahron said that R' Dovid was wrong and that R' Moshe would never have
approved it holding that the Eruv surrounds a Reshus HaRabbim D'Oraisa.

(RAS said that he did not base his Psak on the Brikser Shittah --
following the Rambam -- that one does not need Shishim Riva but only
15 Amos in a public area to be a Reshus HaRabbim D'Oraisa. He based
it entirely on the requirement of the majority of Poskim that says you
need both.elements.)

If one listens to Rav Aharon on these matters, then inviting some one
to your house knowing that he will use the Eruv means that you afre
inviting him to violate Shabbos on a D'Oraisa level. That is clearly a
Michshol which one is forbidden to do.

If OTOH one does not necessarily listen to R' Ahron, one can than say
that there are other Shittos to rely upon and that he is merely being
Machmir for himself in not using it. Then it would be permitted for him
to invite others knowing they will use the Eruv.

HM

 Dear all,
I apologize for an am haaretz question. The Torah, speaking about Egyptians,
always (or almost always) uses the word mitzraim,  ?????????, Egypt,rather
than mitzrim, ???????? ? is one allowed to read something into this? It
would appear that what they were guilty of and the punishment that befell
them had to do with their being of, being representative of Egypt the
enslaver (by extension, of the arba malkhuyot) and it is as such that we can
(or should) rejoice over their downfall, not as individual human beings.
This occurred to me only as every time I say the Shirat hayam I am taken
aback ? coming from Modern Hebrew, I am afraid ? by the translation  ?Hashem
saved on that day Israel from the hand of Egypt, and Israel saw the
Egyptians [rather than ?Egypt?] dead on the seashore.?(Mechon-mamre has
?Egyptians? in both cases.) What makes the translation ?Egyptians? more
appropriate ? it was Egypt, in its representatives, but also as a force,
dead on that seashore, and (also) to that- in my humble understanding ? does
the ?az? of the following verse refer. Someone can probably correct my
reading: but the question has always bothered me.

Greetings to all

Simon
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> From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] binfol oyivkha

> >Look at the reisha of your quote: Didn't their evil go down with them?
> 
> Except that Shirat Hayam doesn't say that.  It says "I will sing to
> Hashem because He is greatly exalted, the horse and his rider he has
> thrown into the sea."  

> Again, this was a nation rightfully singing out in joy and praise at
> Hashem annihilating our enemies.  I don't see how it can be much clearer.

[SLB writes] The answer is in the first sentence you quoted "b/c He is
greatly exalted". The Egyptians were doing their best to prevent Israel from
reaching Mt. Sinai and getting the Torah. They were acting against bringing
Torah and the Light of Hashem to the world. 

We rejoice that the impediments are gone and that Hashem's name is indeed
exalted.

If the Egyptians had done Teshuva -- we would have been equally joyful.

Shoshana L. Boublil

On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 12:36:55PM +0300, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: If the Egyptians had done Teshuva -- we would have been equally joyful.

No, we would have been MORE joyful.

Same song, as I agree that the song is about the yeshu'ah, but more joy.

And that point summarizes my entire position: Could the evil have been
exterminated without killing people created betzelem E-lokim, the event
would have been a pure joy rather than one with mixed emotions.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 From http://tinyurl.com/3rp44rw

One particularly interesting thing I found there was a citation of 
what the wrote in a teshuvoh, defending the old minhog Ashkenaz that 
only one person says kaddish at a time, and taking issue with the 
words of Rav Yaakov Emden about it.

Please see the above URL for the rest of this article.  YL
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From: R' Ben Waxman

> And where does not having pictures of tamei animals fit into this equation?

Considering that the RBSO has the Nevi'im "describing" his "throne" as
standing on Tamei animals  (Eagle and Lion), I do not understand those
who oppose such pictures.

We also have Tana'im comparing positive character traits to Tamei
animals (Eagle, Leopard and Lion), and many classic Halacha Seforim
start with that, including the SA OC.

And - on a lighter note - don't forget that the Holy Hat is made from
Tamei animals; the fedora from Rabbits (one of the few Tamei animals
mentioned by name in the Torah) and the Shtreimel and Spodik from
beavers or similar. Thou Shall Not Be Seen in Public without a Tamei
animal hat on your head!  :-)

- Danny

The following is from Rav Yaakov Perlow's essay RSRH - The Gaon in 
Talmud and Mikra.

The Ksav Sofer met Rav Hirsch for the first time in 1848 and he later wrote,

"We talked in learning with the new Chief Rabbi [of Nikolsburg -RSRH].
He is boki in all of shas and poskim. We are lucky that he thinks of 
us (presumably
the Hungarian Rabbonim), as greater lamdonim than he. Would he
only know his own greatness he would give us no rest."

I have posted the first part of Rav Perlow's essay at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/rsrh_gaon.pdf  and this is 
from page 78. YL
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http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2011/05/beyond-dikdukei-
soferim-powerful-free.html 



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