Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 65

Thu, 28 Apr 2011

• 1. Seven Days You Shall Eat (Machine) Matzos (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Ashkenazi minhag (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Ashkenazi minhag (David Cohen)
• 4. Re: Ashkenazi minhag (Prof. Levine)
• 5. ashkenazi minhag (Joel Schnur)
• 6. Re: ashkenazi minhag (Chanoch (Ken) Bloom)
• 7. ktuba of son of non jewish father (menucha)
• 8. Re: BaOmer vs. LaOmer (R Davidovich)
• 9. Re: Calling people up to the Torah (Danny Schoemann)
• 10. Re: Calling people up to the Torah (Danny Schoemann)
• 11. Calling people up to the Torah (shalomy...@comcast.net)
• 12. Re: Whats the source for calling People for an Aliya to the T by their name ben father's name (Joshua Meisner)
• 13. Re: ain Od Milvado v. Bechira (Hankman)
• 14. Re: Ashkenazi minhag (Micha Berger)

My oldest son spent the last two days of Pesach with a Yekkeshe 
family in Baltimore.  The family is descended from Jews who lived in 
Furth.  They eat only machine matzos the first seven days of Pesach. 
On Achron Shel Pesach they are "maikel" and eat hand matzos!  They 
eat gebrokts, of course, each day of Pesach.

They put on tefillin with a brocha on Chol Moed.  YL

At 05:28 AM 4/28/2011, R. David Cohen  wrote:

>R' Eli Turkel wrote:
>
> > The origin of the halacha is that a community should not be split (lo
> > titgodedu). In the old days if an Ashkenazi would
> > move to Bagdad would he start investigating what are original local
> > minhagim or not? As far as I know anyone who wears tefillin in shul
> > in EY on chol hamoed violates lo titgodedu. Even a visitor from chul should
> > put on tefillin at home.
> >
>
>That's true, if we're talking about an individual putting on tefillin in one
>of our existing shuls, in which nobody else is doing so.
>  The analogous question in this discussion, however, is whether a community
>could decide to establish a new shul in EY in which everybody will put on
>tefilin on chol hamoed.
I am willing to bet that in Rabbi Benyamin Bamburger's shul in Bnei 
Brak everyone puts on tefillin on Chol Moed, although I do not know 
for sure.  I have heard that there are other shuls in EY where this 
is also done.

YL
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R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> I am willing to bet that in Rabbi Benyamin (B)[H]amburger's shul in Bnei
> Brak everyone puts on tefillin on Chol Moed, although I do not know for
> sure.  I have heard that there are other shuls in EY where this is also
> done.
>
>
Correct.  But in the MMA-affiliated shul in Jerusalem, they don't, since
they asked a different posek (R' Elyashiv) and got a different pesak.
See http://www.kayj.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=111.

-- D.C.
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At 06:54 AM 4/28/2011, David Cohen wrote:
>R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:
>>I am willing to bet that in Rabbi Benyamin (B)[H]amburger's shul in 
>>Bnei Brak everyone puts on tefillin on Chol Moed, although I do not 
>>know for sure.  I have heard that there are other shuls in EY where 
>>this is also done.
>
>
>Correct.  But in the MMA-affiliated shul in Jerusalem, they don't, 
>since they asked a different posek (R' Elyashiv) and got a different pesak.
>See 
><http://www.kayj.or
>g/forum/viewtopic.php?t=111>http://www.kayj.o
>rg/forum/viewtopic.php?t=111.
>
>-- D.C.

The following is from http://tinyurl.com/3ouq78x


Many people wear tefillin on chol hamoed in Eretz Yisroel, including 
some gedolim. However, some do it betzinoh so it is not so well known.

One such godol is the Erlau'er Rebbe. You can go in his beis medrash 
and see him with tefillin. He keeps the minhogim of his zeide, the 
Chasam Sofer, to wear tefillin on chol hamoed and daven nusach Ashkenaz.

There are even some minyonim where people wear tefillin on Chol 
Hamoed, like a Yekkishe minyan in Bnei Brak that I know of.

----------


tefillin on chol hamoed IN ERETZ YISROEL (either betzinoh or otherwise) -

Moreinu HaRav Schach, Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, Rav Michel Feinstein 
(eidem of the Brisker Rav), Pressburger Rav, and Rav Duschinsky, " .

The " was in Eretz Yisroel. In his siddur Shaarei Shomayim, he has 
tefillin on chol hamoed.

Rav Moshe Feinstein  writes in a teshuvoh that he knows of thousands 
of bnei Torah who put on tefillin on chol hamoed in Eretz Yisroel.

I think there is an Oberlander minyan in Yerusholayim where they wear 
tefillin on Chol Hamoed as well, if I recall correctly.

----------


while ago, about minyonim where they wear tefillin on chol hamoed in 
Eretz Yisroel bifarhesia.

"There is one in Katamon by the Erlauer Rav (that one has a 
chassidish taste to it). I travel there on the 1st day Chol HaMoed. 
There is another one near Belz in the Minchas Yitzchak neighborhood, 
called Kehillas Vien. It is an Oberlander minyan, according to Minhag 
Pressburg. I go there for the other days of Chol HaMoed."

See the rest of the comments there regarding wearing tefillin in EY 
on Chol Moed. YL



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On the issue of Lo sisgodidu:

 

Rav Pam, who put on tefilin during chol hamoed, once told me that he "does
not understand why ppl raise Lo sisgodidu when it comes to chol hamoed
minyanim. Nowadays everyone knows that there are different minhagim so it
shouldn't be applicable. Nonetheless, people who put on tefilin, should try
and have their own minyan." I first met him succos 1967, standing at the
entrance of the Young Israel of Rugby(?) in East Flatbush, Brooklyn, trying
to drum up a few more ppl for his tefilin minyan. 

 

I found the same language in Rav Moshe Shternbauch's, Maase Rav HeChadash
regarding doing tachnun on the tefilin hand. He holds like the Ari and the
Gra that we are nofel on the tefilin hand, and that it is not an inyan of lo
sisgodidu and he doesn't understand why all those ppl who say that they
follow the Ari in so many instances don't do likewise.

 

___________________________

Joel Schnur

Senior VP

Government Affairs/Public Relations

Schnur Associates, Inc.

1350 Avenue of the Americas

Suite 1200

New York, NY 10019

 

Tel. 212-489-0600 x204

Fax. 212-489-0203 

j...@schnurassociates.com 

www.schnurassociates.com
<http://www.schnurassociates.com/>  

 

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On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 08:00:23PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 04:33:15PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> > On 27/04/2011 4:24 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> >> Since Seph and Nusach Ari say "Veshamru", the Perushim not saying it
> >> didn't set minhag EY.
> 
> > Except that Chabad *doesn't* say "veshamru"...
> 
> Nu so I erred, but it's not an "except"-ion to my rule. If the Talmidei
> haGra and Chabadnikim skipped it, but the Sepharadim said it,

(which is correct -- the Sepharadim do say v'sham'ru in chutz l'aretz)

> it's still
> not something all three qehillos of the original yishuv had in common. And
> thus not going to become minhag EY.

Or maybe the Chabadnikim are irrelevant to minhag EY for some reason,
because they don't say barechu after davening in chutz l'aretz (except
on Friday night), and they don't duchen every day in chutz l'aretz,
and both of those were on list A.

--Ken

-- 
Chanoch (Ken) Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/

a kallah who is modern orthodox from birth is marrying a son of a jewish
mother and non jewish father.  They were told that the chatan's name in
the ktuba would be written as (names are being changed) David ben Malka
bat Dov, i.e him the son of his jewish mother, who is the daughter of
dov her jewish father.
The chatan is distraught at the thought of his father not being
mentioned, and by the fact that this is not "the normal way of writing a
ketuba".
There are definitely issues here of not getting the chatan "turned off
to judaism" etc.
does anyone know of any piskei halacha on this issue, or have an idea of
a Rav who would be worth discussing this with?
one idea which came up is by using the names of both parents for both
bride and groom.
aviva bat reuven veleah, and david ben malka vechristopher.
any leads would be appreciated.
thanks
menucha

>Mipninei Harav (page 102 in my version) cites RYBS as saying the same vort
-
>that the girsaos depend on whether it is D'oraysa or D'rabbanan.



IIRC, this issue has been brought up before. I can't find my response, so I
will retype it:



The difference between LaOmer and BaOmer is about what the word "Omer" means
in the context of the sentence.



LaOmer means "According to the Omer", or "In relation to the Omer", as in
"L'mishpichosam, L'veis Avosam".  The counting sentence then translates:
"This is the nine days in relation to the time the (Korban) Omer is (would
have been) brought."



BaOmer uses the word 'Omer' euphemistically, as shorthand for Sefiras
Haomer, the Counting (from the time) of the Omer. The counting sentence then
translates as "This is nine days in/of the "Omer" count."



From a purely halachic/Chumash-literal standpoint of what the word actually
means; a volume measure, of wheat that was offered on the sixteenth of
 Nissan, LaOmer fits.


But given that the Bracha itself refers to the mitzva euphemistically as
"Sefiras Haomer", just as other words in Loshon Kodesh evolved from a Tanach
meaning to a Chazal meaning, e.g. the word "Goy", and "Eitz", saying BaOmer
fits.



Nahara Nahara U'Pashtei. Each river has its own stream.



Raphael Davidovich
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RMB posited:
> If you used a name at all. Many Sepharadi qehillos just say "Yaamod
> Kohein", etc... And I think there are Chassidim who call up shevi'i
> this way.

In the Yekkish Kehilla I grew up in (Adas Yeshurun of Jo'burg) the
Gabbai gave out 2 card with Shevi'i and Maftir to 2 people before
Krias HaTora.

The Baal Zegen then simply called up "Yaamod Shevi'i/Maftir" with no
other identifying details.

Everybody else was callde up as Ploni ben Almoni besides for me who
was called up with "Yaamod Doniel Yissochor B'ni" and my Opa who was
callde up as "Yaamod Ovi Mori Halevi" :-)
(I don't recall my Dad adding "HaLevi" to my name, but it's been
almost 3 decades...)

- Danny

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com> wrote:

> (I don't recall my Dad adding "HaLevi" to my name, but it's been
> almost 3 decades...)

To which my Dad responded:

"Your Dad remembers calling you up as Doniel Yisochor bni halevi"

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 04:32:46PM +0000, shalomy...@comcast.net wrote: 
: In the Torah, aren't people generally called by this formula (Yehoshua 
: ben Nun, etc)... 


R'MB: 

>And more people in Tanakh are simply called by their name without the 
>"ben ...", so in theory the minhag could have evolved to do that instead. 
>Or go two generations back, as when HQBH "called up" Betzalel ben Uri 
>ben Chur (as opposed to Oholiav ben Achisamackh). 

But, it seems that for most of our existence as a kahal -- at least for most 
of the time we have been calling people to come up and read the Torah 
-- the use of Shimon ben Reuvein has been the standard way people were 
identified.... not just in calling them to the Torah, but in any way.... Much the 
same way we identify you as Micha Berger, to distinguish you from Micha 
Swartz, Micha Rubenstein, and Micha Levine... So, here it's just a way to 
identify which Micha we are talking about. 


>But really I took this question as asking in contrast to the qehillos 
>that don't use names altogether. 

But, this assumes the no-name method was the default, and the more common 
method needs a source/explanation. It seems to me that the obvious thing 
people would do is call up someone and use the name that commonly would 
identify them. What might need to be explained is the source for not using 
names! 


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On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 6:05 AM, Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Whats the source for calling People for an Aliya to the T by their name ben
> father's name
> What is the earliest source and why do we do it?
> I believe it is not a universal custom, in some places they just say YaAmod
> and point
>
>
The Mordechai (Gittin 402), speaking from the late 13th century, makes note
of the minhag to call a person by his name rather than merely pointing at
him (but does not specify if this includes his father's name), and explains
that it is to avoid strife.  Darchei Moshe 135:8, citing Or Zaru'a, notes
that this was not the minhag during the time of the gemara.  The Rema
(139:3) notes that in general, the minhag is to call a person up by his
father's name.

The Chida (ShuT Chaim Sha'al 1:13) notes, though, that the minhag
Yerushalayim is not to call the oleh by his name, so as to give him the
opportunity to decline the kavod without being subject to the penalty
specified on Brachos 55a for one who is given a sefer torah to read and
declines to do so.

Joshua Meisner
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RMB wrote:

From what I understand (with that disclaimer in mind), in this system
of thought, tzimtzum /is/ bechirah chafshi /is/ the illusion that I'm
a distinct being living amongst distinct objects. Bechirah was created
by giving us an opportunity to see the Divine within creation or not.

: If so, how can we be punished for choosing badly, when the bechira and the 
: result of the bechira, were to begin with really part of Hashem?

What does it mean to be "part of" HQBH Who is Absolutely One?

I would focus the question slightly differently: If all of creation if
Hidden Divinity, isn't everything perfect, and thus my choices compelled
by the logic of what best fits the Divine Plan?

In Izhbitz thought the only bechirah we have is whether we interpret
our decisions as being in concert with that Plan, or in rebellion. But
given this notion in the Tanya, even that is problematic. Because the
interpretation too is being performed by something that only /thinks/
it's an independent entity.

CM wonders:

Frankly this is all as clear as mud to me (and I suspect to [most] everyone
else as well). The bigger question throughout this line of thought is not
so much how do "you" have bechira, but even more troubling is who is the
"you"?	In this line of thought you are some sort of (for lack of a better
way to express this)  chelek of HKB"H, so there is no "you"! (No Id). The
whole thing is a stage with HKB"H playing all the parts. Then there IS no
me. There is no one to reward or punish, nor anyone who desires reward
(there is only G-d), nor any bechira etc. In fact the isur of avoda zara
needs biur, as everything, including you and me, is a manifestation of
HKB"H! I fail to see how tsimtsum helps answer anything, all it does is add
another turtle ( it's turtles all the way down ).

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 08:00:40AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Many people wear tefillin on chol hamoed in Eretz Yisroel, including  
> some gedolim. However, some do it betzinoh so it is not so well known.
...
> One such godol is...

What causes pirud -- people seeing others act differently, or even if
people know about it in the abstract?

Or, to rephrase the question: does the problem extend to even having
this conversation here?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


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