Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 56

Mon, 11 Apr 2011

• 1. The RAMBAM on Studying Algebra, etc. (Prof. Levine)
• 2. cRc Article on Starbucks (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Chometz milking question (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 4. Live Bird and Dead Bird (Harvey Benton)
• 5. Re: Women and Tallis (Chana Luntz)
• 6. Re: The Singular Way Of Saying Kaddish (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 7. Re: The Singular Way Of Saying Kaddish (Chana Luntz)
• 8. Re: The Singular Way Of Saying Kaddish (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. The Singular Way of Saying Kaddish (Dov Kaiser)
• 10. Re: Chometz milking question (Zev Sero)
• 11. women leaning at seder (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: The Singular Way of Saying Kaddish (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: women leaning at seder (Aaron Miller)
• 14. The Development of Kaddish Yasom ? a comprehensive shiur (part I) (Prof. Levine)
• 15. Guest post: The Chief Rabbinate and the composition of the London Beth Din, 1840-1984 by Dr Benjamin Elton (Prof. Levine)
• 16. Re: The Singular Way Of Saying Kaddish (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: women leaning at seder (Micha Berger)

The following is from Shemoneh Perakim as translated by Rabbi Eliyahu 
Touger and is given on page 36 of Maimonides Pirkei Avot.

Instead, it is proper that a person direct all his activities, his 
physical health, and the maintenance of his existence so that the 
limbs [of his body] serve as perfect media for his soul. Then his 
soul will be able to exercise the ethical and intellectual virtues 
without any impediment.

Needless to say, everything that a person learns in his studies and 
the sciences that leads to that purpose [is desirable]. Other 
[studies] that are not directly related to this purpose -e.g., 
algebra, mathematical equations, geometry, extensive inquiry into 
engineering, the study of weights and the like - should be directed 
toward the purpose of sharpening one's mind and training one's sense 
of logic to seek proofs, so that a person will grasp the power to 
distinguish one concept from another. This will provide him with a 
medium to reach the knowledge of the truth of His Being.


----------
The NY State Regents Exams in algebra, geometry and trigonometry will 
be given in June. I trust that rebbeim in yeshivas will make the 
above clear to those of their talmidim who will be taking these Regents.

Yitzchok Levine 
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<http://m1e.net/c?123674325-a/CTgNciQ4Ux.%406342593-RCy/ep1bHkDO%2e>
KASHRUTH ALERT



April 8, 2011

Please click below to view the current cRc Pesach edition of the 
Kosher Consumer, the revised Starbucks beverage list as well as the 
full cRc Starbucks article which explains in detail the halachic and 
technical issues of drinking certain Starbucks drink.

<http://m1e.net/c?123674325-nizUlW2NFOMOI%406342594-U.IjIW/K.oQwQ>Kosher 
Consumer

<htt
p://m1e.net/c?123674325-Qz62bRwkl2E6k%406342595-5CW1wL2JXHT2k>Starbu
cks 
List

<htt
p://m1e.net/c?123674325-8JdWC4g31FlVw%406342596-0lgBZ3154qeys>Starbu
cks 
Article   This link did not work for me so I posted the article at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/kashrus/starbucks_crc_article.pdf

Have a wonderful Shabbos!

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Ok, here in Israel, starting this week, all cows will be given only kitniyot
to eat - no chometz.

Around the rest of the world, they don't do that.

You can buy Kosher for Pesach American chocolate with a good heksher that is
not colav yisroel. They have no concern over this.

Now, as a joke, I mentioned to my daughter who nurses her baby that as a qal
v'chomer, maybe she should not have chomets for a week ahead, because if
something with two stomachs needs to do so in Israel, then certainly she
with one stomach should do it as well! ;)

She was not amused and ignored me. (Rightfully so, I suspect!)

I have asked around and I get a blank stare from people who have never heard
that we do this, and from a few people who are mashgichim that I know (I let
them know up front that even though I live in Israel, I eat non-cholav
Israel from non-Israel products very often) I don't really get a definitive
answer. I will query some more authoritative poskim here, but I thought I'd
toss that out there as an interesting Pesach question.

Eliyahu Grossman
Efrat, Israel

What is the significance of dipping a live bird in the blood of its chaver (or 
at least a fellow bird/ of the same or similar species) and then setting it 
free?
What is Hashem trying to convey to us, because on the surface it seems cruel.
At least by the Azalzel, the two goats don't see each other after being 
separated.....let alone being dipped in one of the other's blood....... 
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RMB writes:

> But as in the example of tying the minhagim of the omer and the 3 weeks
> to the forms of aveilus, RYGB doesn't actually always require that
> the obligation be halachic. Rather, that it follows the forms
> established
> by halakhah.
> 
> Which is arguably true for women who put their hands on the cow without
> the ability to actually move its head any.
> 
> But not of the woman who wears a 4 cornered garment without tassles.

Of course it follows the forms established by the halacha.

The minhag is for (a man) to perform the mitzvah of davenning in an
enwrapping (probably white with black stripes) thing with four corners on it
(which for halachic reasons therefore needs tzitzis). This came about
because of the halachic mitzvah (kiyumis) to put tzitzis on a four cornered
garment.  Somewhere long long in our past somebody decided that a really
great way of doing this mitzvah was to do it at the same time as performing
the other mitzvah, that of davening and that became the minhag.  Over time
there developed a specifically identifiable garment used for this purpose
(so identifiable that when a fashion designer decides to use it as an
"influence" it is quite recognisable).

What this woman therefore clearly did was perform the mitzvah of davenning
in an enwrapping (probably white with black stripes) thing *without tzitzis
on it*.  To anybody looking at her (unless they got up close and
specifically looked for the tzitzis or absence of them) it would look to
them like she was performing the mitzvah of davening in the minhag
sanctified way that men have davened for centuries (just as for a person
looking at the women with the animals would have thought they were
performing the mitzvah of bringing korbanos just the way the men do when
involved in the mitzvah of bringing korbanos, ie by doing smicha, even
though in reality they were not).

This woman found the experience of putting on special dedicated (and
historically dedicated) clothes to daven in inspiring and uplifting, just as
the women found the experience of bringing korbanos (or according to the
Ra'avid, not even actually and technically bringing korbanos, probably more
like them believing that they were halachically involved in bringing the
korbanos, even though it was really a korban brought by their husband) more
inspiring and uplifting if they were permitted to do (quasi) smicha.

It seems to me that the parallel is pretty close to exact (unless you are
going to tell me that davening is not a mitzvah for women but korbanos is).

> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha

Shavuah tov

Chana

R' Zev Sero asked:

> Mino hani mili?  Where is such a requirement written?  I know that
> kaddish requires the presence of a minyan, but I have not yet seen
> it written anywhere (well, except in the previous email) that one
> needs even one listener, let alone nine.  Chazoras Hashatz requires
> nine answerers, or else the chazzan's brochos are "korov lihyos
> levatoloh", i.e. not really levatoloh but only close to being so.
> But since when does that apply to kaddish?

Hmmm... Where does it say "that one needs even one listener, let alone nine."...

May I suggest that the source is in Kaddish itself, in the words "V'imru Amen".

Some might point out that we [those who say the Harachamans et al] say the
same thing in Birkas Hamazon at "Oseh Shalom". But that is different.
Kaddish was specifically designed as a prompt to get others to respond with
"Y'heh Shmeh Rabba". I will concede that this only proves that there should
be at least one responder, but by designating it as a Davar Sheb'kdusha, it
is difficult for me to imagine that Chazal didn't want to pattern the
responders after Chazaras Hashatz.

Would someone suggest that Kedusha doesn't need a similiar number of responders, and that it only the brachos of Chazaras Hashatz which need nine?

Akiva Miller

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> Ben Waxman: < The minhag for hundreds of years has been for anyone to
> say kaddish, so I don't if you can say that the "correct way" is for
> one person only to say it.>

And RSM replied:

> Please do not say "hundreds of years."  This is a (mistaken) custom
> that is less than 200 years old.  The Mishna Brurah does not mention
> it, and instead gives the rules for who says kaddish if there is more
> than one person, meaning that IF you went according to the MB (which no
> one does, of course), there would be only one person saying kaddish.

Hold on, I detect some Ashkenocentric assertions here.  The custom (whether
one regards it as mistaken or not) is only less than 200 years old *in
Ashkenaz*.  It appears generally acknowledged (see eg Chatam Sofer chelek
Orech Chaim siman 309 - who did not approve of introducing it) that this was
always the case amongst the Sephardim.  Rav Ya'akov Emden (who did approve
of it) IIRC records having seen it amongst the Sephardim when his father was
Rav in Turkey. But I agree that in Ashkenaz it appears to have made its
appearance late. Pischei Teshuva on Yoreh De'ah 376 s.k. 6 cites the
existence of this view and it is also mentioned in the Kitzur Shulchan Arukh
26:18 as being a way of avoiding machlokus, but I am not aware of anyone
earlier.

> Rabbi Seth Mandel

SHavuah Tov

Chana

In my previous post, I wrote:

> May I suggest that the source is in Kaddish itself, in the words
> "V'imru Amen". ... I will concede that this only proves that
> there should be at least one responder, ...

Over Shabbos I realized that "imru" is not only the tzivui (imperative) form, but it is also plural, indicating that there should be at least two responders.

Akiva Miller

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>> Please do not say "hundreds of years." This is a (mistaken) custom that
>> is less than 200 years old.
 
>Really? Less than 200 years? When is it first mentioned?
 
I have joined this discussion late, so this might already have been raised,
but I recently heard R. Herschel Schacter say in an audio shiur that the
minhag of everything saying kaddish together was introduced by R. Akiva
Eiger during a cholera epidemic, when there were so many mourners. RHS then
said that German and Polish rabbanim argued about whether to continue the
new custom - the former said no and the latter said yes. If RHS is correct,
R. Mandel would be correct that the custom is no more than 200 years old.
 
Kol tuv,
Dov Kaiser
                                          
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On 9/04/2011 2:43 PM, Eliyahu Grossman wrote:
> Ok, here in Israel, starting this week, all cows will be given only kitniyot
> to eat - no chometz.
>
> Around the rest of the world, they don't do that.

Around the rest of the world, milk is not produced for the Jewish market
on Pesach.  We buy all our milk before Pesach, so that anything that
might somehow have got into it will have become batel.  Those who are
super-careful strain it to be sure that there is no solid foreign matter
in it, which would not be batel.  So what goes on during Pesach is of no
concern to us.  The goy will produce milk as he usually does, and will
sell it to his fellow goyim, and after Pesach we will resume buying from
him as usual.  But if you have a Jewish dairy farm, it can't just shut
down during Pesach; it's producing milk, in which any chametz would not
be batel, so the situation is quite different.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

Ashkenazi women usually don't lean at the seder based on the Raaviya.
Since we don't pasken like the Raaviya does this mean that women should lean
lechatchila and only bideved they rely on the Raaviya? My personal
observations
are that women do not lean lechatchila - what is the justification?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 10/04/2011 2:38 AM, Dov Kaiser wrote:
>>> Please do not say "hundreds of years." This is a (mistaken) custom that
>>> is less than 200 years old.

>>Really? Less than 200 years? When is it first mentioned?
  
> I recently heard R. Herschel Schacter say in an audio shiur that the
> minhag of everything saying kaddish together was introduced by R. Akiva
> Eiger during a cholera epidemic

I'm surprised.  That is to say, I'm not surprised that it's *relatively*
late, but I am surprised that it's *that* late.  A mere 200 years doesn't
seem plausible to me; I'd have thought it would date at least as far back
as the aftermath of Gezeros Tach Vetat.  But if the discussion from the
early 19th century is recorded, then it must indeed be so; if they were
arguing about it then, then it must have been new.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

The rama says explicitly 672:2 that Bedieved one can rely on the Ravyah and
fulfill the mitzvah without leaning.  That probably become the accepted
custom.

Aaron

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ashkenazi women usually don't lean at the seder based on the Raaviya.
> Since we don't pasken like the Raaviya does this mean that women should
> lean
> lechatchila and only bideved they rely on the Raaviya? My personal
> observations
> are that women do not lean lechatchila - what is the justification?
>
> --
> Eli Turkel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
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Please see http://tinyurl.com/64g7dlv  This is taken from a shiur 
given by Rabbi Binyamin Hamburger.   YL

From  http://tinyurl.com/4yzd8zk

Although the British Chief Rabbinate has been officially a 
free-standing institution over its history, it has necessarily 
developed very strong connections with other Anglo-Jewish 
institutions, notably the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the 
United Synagogue, Jews' College and the London Beth Din. In 1840 the 
London Beth Din consisted of the Rabbi of the Great Synagogue, 
already known as 'Chief Rabbi' as the Av Beth Din, and a number of 
rabbinical colleagues. It was axiomatic that the Chief Rabbi would be 
the head of the court because he had been appointed to his position 
precisely because of his learning and expertise in Jewish law. His 
duties as rov required him to answer halachic questions, which he was 
able to do as a single individual. However some vital functions, such 
as the granting of a divorce, a conversion or the judgement of a 
civil legal dispute required the presence of a beth din of three 
dayanim. In such cases the Chief Rabbi would assemble two colleagues 
to join him to convene a formal court. As the need for such a court 
arose frequently a number of men were appointed dayanim, even if the 
payment was irregular. The Chief Rabbi was therefore Av Beth Din in 
name, in function and in ability. Today the London Beth Din retains 
the Chief Rabbi as Av Beth Din but he rarely takes part in its 
proceedings, and its de facto head is the Rosh Beth Din, the senior 
dayan of the court. Moreover, the Chief Rabbi is not expected to be a 
great expert in Jewish law. He is appointed to be a spiritual leader 
and other men are sought to involve themselves in the complex legal 
decisions required by a court of Jewish law. But far from being a 
recent development, this has long been the arrangement, indeed it is 
one of the defining characteristics of the emergence of a new type of 
Jewish religious leader in the office of British Chief Rabbi.

Please see the above URL for the rest of this interesting article. YL
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On Fri, Apr 08, 2011 at 09:49:48PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: May I suggest that the source is in Kaddish itself, in the words
: "V'imru Amen".

So you've proven that of a minyan of 10, at most 8 may say qaddish. I
don't think that's actually a tennable position, I am just taking "ve'imru
amein" -- a tzivui belashon rabbim -- doesn't actually prove a need for 9.

Davar shebiqdushah requires 10 INCLUDING the speaker (or the person
choosing misah over shmad). I'm not sure there are requirements about
how many are observers vs performers.

: Some might point out that we [those who say the Harachamans et al]
: say the same thing in Birkas Hamazon at "Oseh Shalom". But that is
: different....

A clearer example. Who are you saying "Ve'imru 'Amein'" to at the end of
E-lokai Netzor? Here we have a call to respond in something said only in
a tefillah belachash. RRW points to this as an example of simple error --
people were used to appending this to the end of the line from Qaddish,
so it crept into their saying EN too.

I would presume the same theory would apply to its presence in benching.

: Would someone suggest that Kedusha doesn't need a similiar number
: of responders, and that it only the brachos of Chazaras Hashatz which
: need nine?

Actually, I could see such an argument. (Bemaqom she'ein ish... <grin>)

It's just that we don't often (I can't dream up) a case where you would
have exactly a minyan, and two people saying Qedushah. With 11 people,
it could happen that the 11th came late and is saying his Shemoneh Esrei
along with the chazan saying Chazaras haShatz. But with 10 people, how
could they be up to ChS if the other 9 weren't already at least started?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 12:10:02PM -0500, Aaron Miller wrote:
: The rama says explicitly 672:2 that Bedieved one can rely on the Ravyah and
: fulfill the mitzvah without leaning.  That probably become the accepted
: custom.

I thought this was exactly RET's question -- how did it become accepted
custom for women to do lechatkhilah what we only rely on bedi'eved?

: On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:
: > Since we don't pasken like the Raaviya does this mean that women should
: > lean lechatchila and only bideved they rely on the Raaviya? My personal
: > observations
: > are that women do not lean lechatchila - what is the justification?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


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