Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 41

Thu, 17 Mar 2011

• 1. Re: Koach deHeteira Adif vs. Chumeros (Micha Berger)
• 2. Rav Menashe Klein - Send Mishloach Manos Early Before They Get Drunk! (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Kavod haMeis (Goldmeier)
• 4. Re: Kavod haMeis (Micha Berger)
• 5. Soft Matza in the Ar HaShulchan, M Berura & ShO HaRav (Meir Rabi)
• 6. Re: Kavod haMeis (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 7. Re: Kavod haMeis (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: eating Pesah Sheini (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. eating human flesh during the Shoah (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: Kavod haMeis (Goldmeier)
• 11. Re: Kavod haMeis (Saul Guberman)
• 12. Re: Kavod haMeis (Goldmeier)
• 13. Radioactivity in Japan - a thought from a friend (Beth & David Cohen)
• 14. Giving Reasons for God's Actions (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 15. Re: Giving Reasons for God's Actions (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Giving Reasons for God's Actions (Ben Waxman)
• 17. Re: who is going to Gehenim (SBA)
• 18. More Examples of "Minhagim" That Lead to Kulos (Prof. Levine)

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 06:33:23PM +0000, Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
:> I should add that if you think about it, the actual concept as used by
:> Chazal argues in FAVOR of chumeros. Documenting the extent of the divrei
:> hamatir is more important. Doesn't that imbalance presume that we require
:> MORE proof before accepting a qulah than before accepting a chumerah?

> Not necessarily. ...
> By the same token, kocha d'heteira adif is because it takes more to be
> mattir than to asser -- not because we require more proof, but because
> it is a greater demonstration of knowledge.

Right now, I'm not too clear on the difference between posessing more
proof for a position and backing your position by demonstrating greater
knowledge. If I did, I assume I would probably agree.

:> The fact is, there is a limited list of dinim where we say things like
:> "halakhah kedivrei hameiqil be'eiruvin". Because the exceptions
:> need specific listing.

> To what are they exceptions? Is there any general rule that "halacha
> k'divrei hamachmir," that exceptions to it need listing? ...

There is an idea, which you invoke above, which says that you don't need
to dermine halakhah to be makhmir. Theis isn't always true, as being
machmir in one area is very often being meiqil in another.

I took the statements about eiruv and aveilus to mean that in these
two dinim, there is ALWAYS a conflicting prioririty, therefore we
actively look for ways to be meiqil. That "playing safe" means being
meiqil whenever justifiable, not the usual "when in doubt, be machmir"
(barring hefsed meruba and the like).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=5009

Rav Menashe Klein - Send Mishloach Manos Early Before They Get Drunk!

What happens if the person you sent Mishloach Manos to is dead drunk, 
are you yotzei? Rav Menashe Klein (Mishneh Halachos (4:91) says 
probably not. Halachically someone who has reached the level of 
intoxication of Lot is like a Shoteh and patur from Mitzvos. He 
reasons that the mitzva of Mishloach Manos depends on the status of 
the recipient and not the sender. If so you have sent to someone who 
is patur from the Mitzva and therefore you are not Yotzei. However if 
he has time to sober up before Purim is over then you are yotzei.

Rav Menashe Klein distinguishes this from a case where the recipient 
is merely sleeping. In that case he believes you are probably yotzei 
because another person can be koneh for him, whereas a drunkard has 
no way to be koneh anything.

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On 14/3/2011 11:14 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Is it a bizayon hemeis issue to publish gruesome photos of murder
> victims? Can the family decide the niftarim would have prefered to have
> their images used for the cause, and we could assume they would not
> consider it a bizayon?

> I'm asking hypothetically, as I presume any problem would be huterah or
> dechuyah if the pros determined that the pictures' circulation had some
> chance of saving lives...

in shulchan aruch it talks about a Jew being murdered and says that when 
this happens the jew should be buried in his clothes and not tachrichim 
so all can see and get angry about what happened.

I dont remember the siman/se'if in Yoreh dei'ah offhand, but I will find 
it tomorrow.

[YD 164:4 -micha]

That halacha seems to indicate that it is imperative that the images 
SHOULD be displayed in such a murder.

kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier

-- 
---------
Goldmeier
goldme...@012.net.il
http://torahthoughts.blogspot.com
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com
http://rabbirunningamarathon.blogspot.com

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:18:44AM +0200, Goldmeier wrote:
> in shulchan aruch it talks about a Jew being murdered and says that when  
> this happens the jew should be buried in his clothes and not tachrichim  
> so all can see and get angry about what happened.
...
> [YD 164:4 -micha]

Is that due to publicizing the murder, or enraging the qehillah toward
murderers? Because the Rama adds that it is done for a woman who died in
childbirth, or someone who fell. On the latter case, the Pischei Teshuvah
discusses loss of blood. See also the Raz, who cites shu"t haMaharil 65,
also discussing "dam yotzei mimenah". Taharah becomes impossible as the
blood would be lost. It would seem that perhaps the problem is the blood
in the clothing requiring qevudah, and not necessarily pirsum.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

This is found in the discussion regarding the Shiur of Kezayis, whether the
food must be compressed or not. In Siman 486 the Rema speaks about
compressing the lettuce.

The Acharonim say that Matza which is bendy and soft like a sponge - Racha
VeAsuYa KeSeFog, need not be compressed.

BTW, the contents of that Simanim in the Tur do not correspond to the ShA

meir
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R' Micha Berger asked:
> Is it a bizayon hemeis issue to publish gruesome photos of murder
> victims? Can the family decide the niftarim would have prefered
> to have their images used for the cause, and we could assume they
> would not consider it a bizayon?

Just off the top of my head, I don't see a difference between that case,
vs. when the family decides that it would not be a bizayon to delay the
funeral in order that certain people would be able to attend. In both
cases, we're dealing with an act which would be a blatant bizayon if not
for the unusual circumstances, so if the family is allowed to grant
permission on the niftar's behalf in the one case, I'd think the other case
would be the same.

Of course, one must be very careful to make sure that this decision is
being truly made with the niftar's interests and desires at heart, and this
goes for both examples.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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On 14/03/2011 5:14 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Is it a bizayon hemeis issue to publish gruesome photos of murder
> victims? Can the family decide the niftarim would have prefered to have
> their images used for the cause, and we could assume they would not
> consider it a bizayon?

Cf Pilegesh Begiv'ah?


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

R' David Riceman asked:

> The sugya in Pesahim 88b-89a assumes that someone who has eaten
> Pesah rishon may not join a group of people eating Pesah sheini.
> My havrusa and I have no idea where this prohibition comes from.
> Any suggestions?

My wild guess: If someone was already yotzay in Nisan, then he is not
obligated in Pesach Sheni, and so feeding it to him would be like feeding
it to a non-Jew.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Groupon&#8482 Official Site
1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city's best!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4d7ecc46668e9120131st05vuc

I remember a teshuva about eating human flesh during the shoah
Does anyone have a exact reference to such teshuvot?


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 15/3/2011 1:49 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> [YD 164:4 -micha]

364:4, not 164. I think it is a reason given by one of the meforshim. my 
SA with commentary is in shul. so I will look it up later tonight

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 22:12, <kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:
> R' Micha Berger asked:
>> Is it a bizayon hemeis issue to publish gruesome photos of murder
>> victims? Can the family decide the niftarim would have prefered
>> to have their images used for the cause, and we could assume they
>> would not consider it a bizayon?

> Just off the top of my head, I don't see a difference between that case,
> vs. when the family decides that it would not be a bizayon to delay the
> funeral in order that certain people would be able to attend...

Delay of the funeral is weighing bizayon of the delay vs. kavod to the
niftar by having a larger funeral & more/closer people to give hespedim.
I am not sure of the kavod factor in releasing the pictures.


On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 19:49, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> [YD [364]:4 -micha]

> Is that due to publicizing the murder, or enraging the qehillah toward
> murderers? ...                                       the Pischei Teshuvah
> discusses loss of blood. See also the Raz, who cites shu"t haMaharil 65,
> also discussing "dam yotzei mimenah". Taharah becomes impossible as the
> blood would be lost. It would seem that perhaps the problem is the blood
> in the clothing requiring qevudah, and not necessarily pirsum.

I recall learning the reason for burying in their clothes without
a tahara at a chevra kaddisha shiur. It was not so that the people
would take revenge, but that God would "see" the plight of his people &
take He would take revenge. This explanation goes well with adding HYD,
when speaking of the niftarim.

On a practical note, this generally does not happen in the US because
by the time EMS,the Emergency room & the Medical Examiner have finished
their work, the person is no longer in their street clothes, so a taharah
is done on a murder victim.

Saul

in Yoreh Dei'ah 364:4, in Shach (11) and Taz (3) and the Be'er heitev 
(7) as well, they bring the opinion of the BACH who says a murdered jew 
is different than one who died, and by a murdered Jew we want everyone 
to see and get angry at the murderer and tave revenge. I dont know if he 
is calling for vigilante attacks, or if he wants people to call for 
vengeance by those responsible for security, but that is what he says.

Kol tv
Rafi Goldmeier

On 15/3/2011 1:49 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
> Is that due to publicizing the murder, or enraging the qehillah toward
> murderers? Because the Rama adds that it is done for a woman who died in
> childbirth, or someone who fell. On the latter case, the Pischei Teshuvah
> discusses loss of blood. See also the Raz, who cites shu"t haMaharil 65,
> also discussing "dam yotzei mimenah". Taharah becomes impossible as the
> blood would be lost. It would seem that perhaps the problem is the blood
> in the clothing requiring qevudah, and not necessarily pirsum.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
> ____________

Joseph Kaplan wrote:
"We can have faith because we DON'T know why God does things"

I absolutely agree with the above.
However, that doesn't mean that we should not take a lesson from tragedies
of this nature. It should remind us that stuff like this doesn't always and
only happen to "others".  It should remind us to take stock of our lives and
our relationships, both to others and to KHBH, because in a moment your
"tsunami" may come. I can't know the "why" of something, why HKBH did
something. But I cannot ignore it either.  Sooner or later, that bell will
toll for me.

David I. Cohen
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On Mar 16, 2011, RSBA wrote, in connection with giving reasons for tragedies:

> A friend just sent me a scan of Brochos  59a.
> 
> The gemara gives the reason for earthquakes  (and tsunami) happening - when
> Hashem remembers His children suffering amongst the Umos Haolom, he is
> "morid shtei dimaos leyam hagadol - vekolo nishma misof haolom v'ad sofo"
> 
> So may be quote this gemara when discussing earthquakes??

You can quote any aggadata you want including references to God's
anthropomorphic "tears in the ocean."  But I still believe it's a grave
error, and without any real basis, to link these symbolic tears to any
particular earthquake, especially one that resulted in the deaths of
thousands of men, women and children. 
Joseph Kaplan
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On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 03:49:33PM -0400, R David Cohen wrote:
: Joseph Kaplan wrote:
:> We can have faith because we DON'T know why God does things

: I absolutely agree with the above.
: However, that doesn't mean that we should not take a lesson from tragedies
: of this nature. It should remind us that stuff like this doesn't always and
: only happen to "others".  It should remind us to take stock of our lives and
: our relationships...

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 03:12:43PM -0400, Joseph C. Kaplan wrote:
: You can quote any aggadata you want including references to God's
: anthropomorphic "tears in the ocean." But I still believe it's a grave
: error, and without any real basis, to link these symbolic tears to any
: particular earthquake, especially one that resulted in the deaths of
: thousands of men, women and children.

From Qol Dodi Dofeiq by RYBS:
    The well-known metaphysical problem arises yet again and the
    sufferer asks: "Why dost thou show me iniquity and beholdest
    mischief? ..." ... (Habakkuk 1:3-4) However, as we emphasized earlier
    God does not address Himself to this question, and man receives no
    reply concerning it. The question remains obscure and sealed, outside
    the domain of logical thought. "For "Thou canst not see My face,
    for man shall not see Me and live" (Exodus 33:2). ... If we wish
    to probe deeply, to question profoundly during a period of nitmarish
    terrors, then we have to pose the question in a halakhic form and ask:
    What is the obligation incumbent upon the sufferer deriving from the
    suffering itself? What commanding voice, what normatice principle
    arises out of the afflictions themselves? Such a question, as we
    stated above, has an answer which finds its expression in a clear
    halakhic ruling. We need not engate in metaphysical speculation in
    order to clarify the law of the rectification of evil. "It is not
    in heaven" (Deuteronomy 30:12). If we should succeed in formulating
    this teaching without getting involved in the question of cause and
    telos, then we will obtain complete redemption...

RDC is in good company... Taking lesson from something does not need to
imply that the old we are abandoning was the sin behind some punishment,
("... without getting involved in the question of cause") nor that
Hashem performed or allowed people to perform the tragic in order to
evince that change ("... or telos").

To repeat from what I quoted before of RAShafran's description of the
CC's response to the Japanese earthquake in 1923:
    Informed of the mass deaths in Japan, the 85-year-old rabbinic leader
    was visibly shaken, immediately undertook to fast and insisted that
    the news should spur all Jews to repentance.

    Yes, Jews to repentance. Jewish religious sources maintain that
    catastrophes, even when they do not directly affect Jews, are
    nevertheless messages for them, wake-up calls to change for the
    better. Insurers call such occurrences "Acts of G-d." For Jews, the
    phrase is apt, and every such lamentable event demands a personal
    response.

(Again, I don't know if this was the CC's intent, or if he spoke about
Jews doing teshuvah because that's his audience. Had the local Lithuanians
asked him, I do not know if the CC wouldn't have said that it was
a wakeup call to them to. I would appreciate a primary source, with
checkable wording.)

And:
    That is the secret of how we can create a better world and vanquish
    evil -- the source of all tragedy -- at its very roots.

    For when we do such things, the seeming tiny quanta of our collective
    merits can combine and swell, no less than drops of water that make
    up an ocean, into a tidal wave of goodness, ushering in the day when,
    as the prophet Isaiah (11:9) foretold, "the earth will be filled
    with knowledge of G-d, like the water that covers the oceans."

Note that the CC too is described as taking a lesson, without exploring
"cause or telos". He didn't say that HQBH punished the Japanese for
the Jews' sins, or even that He did so for the purpose of sending us
a message. Just that when events shake us out of our rut, it's a good
time to do teshuvah. A response to "rectify evil", not a "metaphysical
speculation".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

In terms of personal middot, given that these discussions of "why did God do 
X" almost invariably end up with "Group Y is guilty of 1, 2, 3" (and the 
speaker of course is NOT a member of group Y), it is best not to go there 
(unless you are a Chafetz Chayim who will look inward).

Ben 

From: "Joseph C. Kaplan" 
"The situation in Japan (which has very limited negative impact on Jews) may
be HaShem's way of waking people up to the fact that Iran's going nuclear
can no longer be view with such apathy." 

It may be.  ...We can have faith because we DON'T know why God does things.
Thus, if we think something is unjust (like the death of thousands of
apparently innocent Japanese), we can say that we don't know why it happened
and therefore we cannot judge -- there has to be a good reason.  That's what
belief in God and faith are about  But if we say we do know why it happened
-- e.g., as a wake-up call to Iran's nuclear capabilities -- then it's
legitimate to challenge God and ask: "is that just to kill innocent people
to give the world a message?; hashofet kal ha'aretz lo ya'aseh mishpat?"
It's much better that we don't know and it's a grave error to guess.
=========

A friend just sent me a scan of Brochos  59a.

The gemara gives the reason for earthquakes  (and tsunami) happening - when
Hashem remembers His children suffering amongst the Umos Haolom, he is
"morid shtei dimaos leyam hagadol - vekolo nishma misof haolom v'ad sofo"

So may be quote this gemara when discussing earthquakes??

SBA

There is a Shteibel near me that has the following "minhagim."  (Why 
I put quotes around this word will be apparent from what I write below.)

1.  They do not say tachanun ever at Mincha.

2.  They  do not say tachanun on the 11th, 12th, and 13th of 
Adar.  The reason given for this "minhag" is that the gemara says 
that one can read the Megillah on these days under certain 
circumstances.  There are some who also want to skip tachanun on the 
16th and 17th because the gemara asks about reading the Megillah on 
these days.  However, these people are usually overruled, but not always.

3.  The do not say tachanun during the week of Hod during Sefira.

4. If someone is going to a bris "in the neighborhood,"  they skip 
tachanun.  Keep in mind that the bris is not in this Shteibel and the 
person going to it need not be the sandek.

5.  They say Aveinu Malkenu only during Aseres Yemei Teshuva.

All of this means that this morning they said selichos without 
tachanun and without Aveinu Malkenu.

I am sure that if I continue to observe what goes on in this 
Shteibel, I will find other "minhagim" that lead to kulas.

Yitzchok Levine 



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