Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 214

Tue, 07 Dec 2010

• 1. Re: hand washing during a drought (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Kiddushin and Bigamy (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Kiddushin and Bigamy (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Kiddushin and Bigamy (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: wife lighting menora (David Riceman)
• 6. Re: Kiddushin and Bigamy (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: wife lighting menora (Akiva Blum)
• 8. washing hands - using the water twice or thrice (Meir Rabi)
• 9. Afikomon (Micha Berger)
• 10. Mitzvat Al HaNissim and the obligation of Women (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 11. Unusual Chanukah Minhag? (Simon Wanderer)
• 12. washing hands (Eli Turkel)
• 13. kiddushin and bigamy (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Re: Afikomon (Sacks, Avram)
• 15. Re: Kiddushin and Bigamy (Hankman)
• 16. Re: Kiddushin and Bigamy (Zev Sero)

On Sat, Dec 04, 2010 at 07:12:56PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
:>:             ... if someone has 2 candles the second night and his neighbor
:>: has none he should give one to the neighbor as it preferable that both
:>: keep the basic mitzva rather than he keep mehadrin while his neighbor doesnt
:>: have any. The true mehadrin is helping the neighbor.

:> Is it?

:> Or should I give my neighbor a perutah, so that he could pay me to be
:> mishtateif in the mitzvah? Maybe he should sleep over, so as to remove
:> any question of where to light

: I was quoting MB on OC:671 (6 in MB)

I still ask my question... Why is it a bigger mitzvah to give up my
mehadrin min hamehardin when there is a way for both of us to fulfil it?

All citing the MB tells me is that an answer must exist, not what the
answer is.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Fri, Dec 03, 2010 at 01:48:57PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>>> no reason why he should wait for the civil divorce to come through.

>> That depends why it's taking so long. I can't comment on a real case
>> without knowing why the first wife is making the divorce difficult.

> Why does it matter?  What does halacha care about the civil divorce?
> What if the couple decided, for one reason or another, not to even
> bother with a civil divorce; why would that be a problem?

If the first wife is holding things up because he isn't paying his
due, eg for child support, then I would hope no one would offer to
be mesadeir qiddushin and enable his short-changing his children.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 6/12/2010 3:15 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> If the first wife is holding things up because he isn't paying his
> due, eg for child support, then I would hope no one would offer to
> be mesadeir qiddushin and enable his short-changing his children.

Why should anyone take sides in a private dispute between him and his
ex-wife?  What has it got to do with siddur kidushin?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 03:17:06PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> Why should anyone take sides in a private dispute between him and his
> ex-wife?  What has it got to do with siddur kidushin?

What I would need to know more about before commenting has nothing to do
with qiddushin qua qiddushing, but with (as I wrote):
>> If the first wife is holding things up because he isn't paying his
>> due, eg for child support, then I would hope no one would offer to
>> be mesadeir qiddushin and enable his short-changing his children.

If you don't think a person -- in particular a rav who is capable of
siddur qedushin and thus probably is an authority figure in the eyes of
some people -- has a chiyuv to make sure a father supports his children,
we have nothing to discuss.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
mi...@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

RRG:

<<Where else do we find a wife being excluded from a mitzva because of the

exception of eeshto k'gufo?>>

How about teishvu k'ein taduru? I know one person who sleeps in the Sukka
only so her husband can fulfill TKT, and otherwise she would sleep indoors.
 It's not totally analogous, but it's close.

David Riceman

On 6/12/2010 4:02 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> If you don't think a person -- in particular a rav who is capable of
> siddur qedushin and thus probably is an authority figure in the eyes of
> some people -- has a chiyuv to make sure a father supports his children,
> we have nothing to discuss.

Who's to say how much he should be paying them?  It's a private dispute
between two parties, just like any financial dispute.  Why should someone
who has nothing to do with it, and knows none of the details, mix in,
let alone prejudge it in favour of one side, let alone against the side
he has a shaychus to?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org 
> [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of 
> kennethgmil...@juno.com
> Sent: Sunday 05 December 2010 5:46 AM

> 
> But I did think of another case which contrasts with this so 
> sharply that I think it is worth mentioning. Consider this:
> 
> A) Ner Chanuka is done by everyone, except the wife.
> B) Ner Shabbos v'YT is done by *no* *one*, except the wife.
> 
> Consider that many similarities between these two mitzvos. 
> Me'ikar hadin, they are both truly on the home and not on any 
> individual. Any one member of the family can light and all 
> will be yotzay. The others don't have to appoint the lighter 
> as their shliach; it is automatic. The others don't even have 
> to be present at the lighting. For example, in many homes the 
> men have already left for shul when the wife lights the 
> Shabbos candles; and on Chanuka, if the husband is away on a 
> business trip, the wife can light for him at home.
> 

I don't believe this is true. He must light for himself where he is with a
brocha.

Akiva

How about SheYarei Tahara?
By placing your hands under the first washer, you can wash with even less
than a Revi'is
An additional benefit is gained by not having to worry about ensuring ones
hands are dry and water on the handles of the washing jug
Furthermore, one can avoid the tedious wait in line, by jumping to the front
and popping your hands under the washer's.
There is no limit to the number of people who can use this water in an
infinite cascade
Good for family days out when eating in places where there is no ready
supply of water


Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
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I asked a Greek co worker a couple of years ago, and his answer was
hazy, so when I found out that a co worker of mine had a PhD in Classical
Languages, I asked her.

epikomon means "after meal entertainment".

I invite you to consider why we are discussing entertainment, and not the
desert food itself.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 18:59:44 +0200
> From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>

> <<I don't know if the MB is the only one to say this exception, but I have
> not found it elsewhere, though it seems to have become the common psak,
> at least among the ashkenazy yeshivishe community in Eretz Yisroel.

[SLB writes] I haven't noticed the previous discussion on this topic, but in
Sephardi households, only the father lights the Chanuka Menorah - though it
is customary to give the wife and children the opportunity to light some of
the candles.
 
> Where else do we find a wife being excluded from a mitzva because of the
> exception of eeshto k'gufo? 
[del]

> R. Aharaon Lichtenstein has a long article on this issue and brings up the
> same point.
> He ends stating that RYBS had his wife lighting candles and that is also
> his
> (RAL)
> custom to have the wife light candles.

[SLB writes] RAL has another interesting article on the 3 halachot given by
R' Yehoshu'a Ben Levi concerning the obligation of women: chanuka; Megilla
and 4 Kossot (pesach).

Shoshana L. Boublil

I davened maariv at a satmar shul tonightand saw something I never have before. 

At hadlakas neiros, a crowd gathered, holding towels, around the madlik and
the menorah. As he is about to start lighting, everyone throws the towels
at him and the menorah.

It certainly took me by surprise- let's just say it's not the sort of thing
that happens in the yekkish shul I grew up in! I was going to use the word
bizarre in the subject line until I thought what klapping hoshanos must
look like to the initiated...

1- Is anyone familiar with this minhag and who it is practiced by?
2- Do any written sources discuss?
3- What's the meaning? (My only guess is it symbolises overcoming adversity to light the menorah?)


KT
-- SW
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<<In any case, we're also still carrying RET's question... So, don't use
the minimum of water. Instead of using a CI revi'is of 150cc, use 175.
That shows a lack of minimalist attitude -- more than the largest accepted
revi'is. Where does that become an obligation to use 500 - 750 cc that
we find in most cups sold for the purpose? >>

While I agree with Micha I wonder why even consider the shiur of CI.
Many pasken that for a derabbanan we go le-kula with the smaller shiur. Here
we are not talking about even a derabbanan which is a bare reviit. So IMHO
we
should use the smaller shiur of 86cc. In any case the basic reasoning is
the same as Micha


-- 
Eli Turkel
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An interesting story from the last shiur of R. Zilberstein on medical
halacha.

A man was always making bad investments against the advice of his wife.
Finally
she went to a bet din to demand a divorce which they required the husband to
give.
The man gave the "get" and a little while later remarried. Much later the
wife decided to
remarry and the mesader kiddushin asked to see the "get" (I guess some copy
as she
normally doesnt get the original). He found out that her middle name was
left out
of the :get" and said she needed a new get. When she went to the first
husband he said
for a second "get" he wants $50,000.

She then came crying to R. Zilberstein who went to R. Elyashiv who
guaranteed the woman
wouldn't pay a penny. He told R. Zilberstein to tell the first husband that
he is a
bigamist since he is now married to 2 women. (1)  it is illegal in Israel
and he will go to
jail (2) since he is violating the cherem of Rabbenu Gershon he will not
live a long
life.
The man agreed to reduce his request for $50,000. R. Zilberstein replied
that she will not
pay a penny and if he doesnt come to bet din to give a new "get" he will
declare him
in willfulviolation of the cherem and his life will be shortened.

The man came the next morning to bet din to give a new "get" without any
conditions

-- 
Eli Turkel
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When I was in college at Indiana University, my Hebrew professor was
Henry Fischel, z"l.  His area of expertise was Greco-Roman influences in
Talmudic/Rabbinic literature.  He also had smicha from the seminary in
Breslau.  Around Pesach time, each year, he would give a lecture at the
Hillel on minhagim surrounding Pesach.  It was his belief that much of
what we do at the seder reflects a rabbinic tradition of taking
practices from surrounding culture, turning them around, and giving
those practices a particularly Jewish persona.  

For example, Judaism did not invent korbanot, but the Torah redirects
their purpose and the object to whom the korbanot are directed. [See
Rambam, Moreh Nevuchim, Chelek Gimmel, Perek 32.]

So, too, one can find in the seder elements taken from Greek or
Greco/Roman culture and given new meaning.  Recliining?  Well, that is
how the citizens of Greece had their feasts, reclining on sofas.  It is
not a stretch to imagine that the matzah that was  eaten as the dessert
so that its taste lingered was given a name borrowed from the Greeks and
used to connote "after meal entertainment." 

//Avi

         Avram L. Sacks
         Riverwoods, IL 60015
 

-----Original Message-----
From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org
[mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Micha Berger
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 5:00 PM
To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group
Subject: [Avodah] Afikomon

I asked a Greek co worker a couple of years ago, and his answer was
hazy, so when I found out that a co worker of mine had a PhD in
Classical
Languages, I asked her.

epikomon means "after meal entertainment".

I invite you to consider why we are discussing entertainment, and not
the
desert food itself.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org

RZS wrote:
Oh, I see, you mean a real
bigamous marriage.  Could R Gershom could have decreed that such
marriages wouldn't be chal?  I don't know; it seems presumptious for
a local rav, making a local takanah, to equate himself to the "rabanan"
on whose daas one is mekadesh.  It makes sense to me that "das moshe
veyisrael" means the law of *all* yisrael, not including local takanos
of recent vintage and set to expire soon, which is what R Gershom's
cherem was at the time.  He wasn't to know that it would spread to the
majority of Jewry, and be made permanent by minhag.

In any event, though, whether he could or couldn't have made such a
tenai, the fact is that he didn't.  So the marriage is chal, and the
violator is in cherem.

CM responds:
The question still makes sense without regard to R. Gershom's Intent or the
original breadth of the Takanah. Now, given that the Takanah of R. Gershom
has indeed spread far and wide and accepted by	the large majority of Kelal
Yisroel, would this be considered "kedas Mosheh veYisrael" or not with the
appropriate consequence as to whether the kedushin is chal?

Freilach'n Chanuka veKol tuv

Chaim Manaster
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On 6/12/2010 6:29 PM, Hankman wrote:

> The question still makes sense without regard to R. Gershom's Intent
> or the original breadth of the Takanah. Now, given that the Takanah of
> R. Gershom has indeed spread far and wide and accepted by the large
> majority of Kelal Yisroel, would this be considered "kedas Mosheh
> veYisrael" or not with the appropriate consequence as to whether the
> kedushin is chal?

Let's get back to basics.  Where do we get the idea that kidushin depend
on the rabbanan?  Because the gemara says "kol dimekadesh ada`ta derebanan
mekadesh", and therefore that if the rabbanan don't agree to the kidushin,
even retroactively, it's not chal.  But for that to work the rabanan have
to say that they don't agree, that they want the kidushin to be batel.
I don't think we have any basis for saying that kidushin are automatically
batel just because some takana wasn't followed.  That would make the
rabbanan's takanos even greater than the Torah's laws!  After all, we
know that kidushin which are forbidden by the Torah, and for which the
parties will get malkos, are still chal.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher


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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 214
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