Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 194

Fri, 12 Nov 2010

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 13:51:49 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] atifat tallit


From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Message-ID: <4CD7864D.5070...@sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

R' Eli Turkel wrote:
>> The geonim say one should wear the tallit like atifat hayishmaelim.
>> The question is why is the proper way to wear a tallit governed by
>> what Arabs do?

R' Zev Sero replied:
> It's just a description.  Arabs of the Geonim's time wore their robes
> in a manner that's considered "atifa".

We had the same concept in Daf Yomi last night (Horiyos 11 and other
places in Shas) of "Laws that the Tzadukim agree to".

We don't actually ask them, nor do we need them or their false
approach to Torah, it's simply the easiest way to describe a concept.

(For that matter the Tos' HaRosh IIRC mentions that the Baytusim and
Tzadukim had 2 conflicting approaches how to misinterpret the
Written/Oral Law, and much later the Minim had a 3rd approach. But
"Laws that the Tzadukim agree to" are common to all 3 break-away
groups.)

- Danny



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Message: 2
From: D&E-H Bannett <db...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:19:10 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] atifat tallit


Re: <<The geonim say one should wear the tallit like atifat 
hayishmaelim.
The question is why is the proper way to wear a tallit 
governed by
what Arabs do?>>.

It appears to me that this is one of the answers to the 
halakhic question of how much 'ituf (covering) is required 
to fulfill "l'hit'atef" when making the b'rakha.

As the Arabs wrap themselves very completely, often leaving 
only their eyes showing, they are a good example of how to 
do the 'ituf.

David




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Message: 3
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 13:31:50 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Rosh ruled that a rav was a zaken mamre


R' Zev Sero wrote:

> The Rosh seems to have taken a broader view of the power given him by
> the king.

Please explain your understanding of the Rosh's view on this. The local
civil king might have granted the Rosh some very broad powers, but if the
Torah denies him those powers, what good is the king's permission?

In other words: According to my understanding, there are only two
circumstances under which the Torah allows a Jew to kill another: (a) In
the case where a duly-constituted beis din has sentenced someone to death,
and (b) To prevent a murderer or potential murderer from murdering, and
this includes lots of cases such as self-defense, getting rid of a moser,
and the like.

Does the example of the Rosh fit into one of these two? Is there a third that I didn't think of?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
From: Zvi Lampel <zvilam...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 09:26:53 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] answered tfilos



> On 7 Nov 2010 11:57:35 ESTRTB wrote: "...when we daven for something 
> we desperately want, we should pay heed to the wording of the Rosh 
> Chodesh bentshing: 'Sheyimal'u mish'alos libeinu LETOVAH.' "
At the beginning of Shemoneh Essray, we praise Hashem for being a King 
Who "is" an "ozer" (One who helps us in our efforts, say, to escape 
harm), "u'Moshia" (One Who even saves us from harm without our input), 
and a "Magen" (One Who blocks the harm from even approaching us in the 
first place--so that sometimes we don't even know that there was harm 
coming. Indeed, we may wish for something that we think would be 
beneficial, but in truth would be harmful.

When we begin to pray Shemoneh Essray, we are about to ask for things we 
think would be beneficial for us here and now. We should always preface 
these requests with the thought that Hashem, in His mercy, may say "No" 
to some things because they are really not good for us.

Perhaps this is why we preface our requests with "Magen Avraham"; and 
perhaps this is why Chazal say that one who fails to have kavanah while 
saying this bracha ruins the entire Shemoneh Essray.

Zvi Lampel



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Message: 5
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 10:24:50 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Rosh ruled that a rav was a zaken mamre




In other words: According to my understanding, there are only two
circumstances under which the Torah allows a Jew to kill another: (a) In
the case where a duly-constituted beis din has sentenced someone to death,
and (b) To prevent a murderer or potential murderer from murdering, and
this includes lots of cases such as self-defense, getting rid of a moser,
and the like.

Does the example of the Rosh fit into one of these two? Is there a third that I didn't think of?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
3. The beit din or some other authority (therein lies another rub) takes the power originally allocated to the Jewish king to maintain civil society.
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 6
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 10:23:00 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] atifat tallit


 


Re: <<The geonim say one should wear the tallit like atifat hayishmaelim.
The question is why is the proper way to wear a tallit governed by what Arabs do?>>.

==========================
And the shofar being governed by sisra's mother?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
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Thank you.




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Message: 7
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toram...@bezeqint.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 17:14:47 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] sprouted wheat


> From: David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net>
> To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: [Avodah] sprouted wheat
> Message-ID: <4CD6DCF9.2050...@optimum.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> One of our guests this Shabbos mentioned that she buys bread made out
> of
> flour ground from sprouted wheat.  She called the OU and they told her
> that it had the bracha hamotzi because it's considered no different
> than
> normal wheat flour.  How do they know that?
> 
> David Riceman

[SLB writes] I truly don't understand the question. What is "that" that you
are referring to.

In any case, regular flour is made from ground-up wheat kernels.

(from a website: http://www.naturebake.com/faq.htm#1)

What is sprouted wheat?

Sprouted wheat is the healthiest way to get whole grains.  First we start
with the whole-wheat kernel and literally sprout it.  As the kernel grows,
many vitamins are formed in the process which adds to the nutritional value
of our bread.  The kernels and sprouts are then ground up in whole and put
into our many sprouted wheat breads.

[SLB writes] The bread is therefore still made from wheat kernels.

Shoshana L. Boublil







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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 12:31:34 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Rosh ruled that a rav was a zaken mamre


On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 10:24:50AM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: [RAM:]
:> In other words: According to my understanding, there are only two
:> circumstances under which the Torah allows a Jew to kill another: (a)
:> In the case where a duly-constituted beis din has sentenced someone to
:> death, and (b) To prevent a murderer or potential murderer from murdering,
:> and this includes lots of cases such as self-defense, getting rid of a
:> moser, and the like.

: 3. The beit din or some other authority (therein lies another rub)
: takes the power originally allocated to the Jewish king to maintain
: civil society.

Isn't that the same as (b)? Or is there a distinction I'm missing?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 12:36:29 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] answered tfilos


On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 09:26:53AM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> At the beginning of Shemoneh Essray, we praise Hashem for being a King  
> Who "is" an "ozer" (One who helps us in our efforts, say, to escape  
> harm), "u'Moshia" (One Who even saves us from harm without our input),  
> and a "Magen" (One Who blocks the harm from even approaching us in the  
> first place--so that sometimes we don't even know that there was harm  
> coming....

Alternatively, we call him "King, Helper, Redeemer and Protector", including
the word "Melekh" in a list of four nouns, rather than as a noun with three
adjectives.

It too can fit the increasing sequence. The Melekh does what's best
overall. The Ozeir addresses my own personal interests, the Melekh only
would if that is part of the overall plan for everybody.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 10
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <r...@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:44:24 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Rosh ruled that a rav was a zaken mamre



      RMicha Berger wrote: > I'm missing something... I asserted that courts have two capacities that
> justify execution:

> 1- The halachic requirement of dinei nefashos, and
> 2- The obligation of every society to protect its citizenry.
...
> Now the king could affirm that general right for an autonomous Jewish
> community to execute people. But ... how could he reverse the requirement for
> the beis din hagadol to meet in the lishqas hagazis, a beis din of 23,
> eidus, hasraah, etc... that is necessary for the accused to be chayav
> misas beis din?

> So, even if he found this rav guilty of being a zaqein mamrei, how could
> the king change the fact that it doesn't cause a chiyuv misas beis
> din?      The Rosh was going to have him killed not by a beis din, but
> by the king, just as for the monetary fine, in which his instructions
> were to have the king fine him.  Undoubtedly, the king would have had
> him killed in the same manner as all state executions were done -- not
> necessarily the chenek prescribed by the Torah for zaken mamrei.  In
> other words, because the Rosh considered him a zaken mamrei, the king
> would accept the recommendation to have him killed by dina d'malchusa.
>  Hence, the formalities of misas beis din do not apply.
EMT
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Message: 11
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 14:01:18 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Rosh ruled that a rav was a zaken mamre


 


On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 10:24:50AM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: [RAM:]
:> In other words: According to my understanding, there are only two
:> :> circumstances under which the Torah allows a Jew to kill
:> another: (a) :> In the case where a duly-constituted beis din has
:> sentenced someone to :> death, and (b) To prevent a murderer or
:> potential murderer from murdering, :> and this includes lots of
:> cases such as self-defense, getting rid of a :> moser, and the
:> like.

: 3. The beit din or some other authority (therein lies another rub)
: takes the power originally allocated to the Jewish king to maintain
: civil society.

Isn't that the same as (b)? Or is there a distinction I'm missing?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
I thought R'AM was limiting the cases where it could be applied, my point was he could give it to a litterer if he felt need be.
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.




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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:22:02 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Rosh ruled that a rav was a zaken mamre


On 9/11/2010 8:31 AM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> R' Zev Sero wrote:
>
>> The Rosh seems to have taken a broader view of the power given him by
>> the king.
>
> Please explain your understanding of the Rosh's view on this. The
> local civil king might have granted the Rosh some very broad powers,
> but if the Torah denies him those powers, what good is the king's
> permission?
>
> In other words: According to my understanding, there are only two
> circumstances under which the Torah allows a Jew to kill another: (a)
> In the case where a duly-constituted beis din has sentenced someone to
> death, and (b) To prevent a murderer or potential murderer from
> murdering, and this includes lots of cases such as self-defense,
> getting rid of a moser, and the like.

I don't have sources to hand, but if I recall correctly there are
examples of capital punishment being applied in Spain to mechalelei
shabbat, etc.  The theory seemed to have been that in the absence of a
real BD, one must simply continue with the best that one can do; and
that since the king allowed them to govern their own affairs, they took
advantage of this to apply din torah as best they could.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher



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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:17:56 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Ein Mosifin al haHalachah


On Y-mi Maaser Sheini 1:1 2a, there is a discussion of the halakhah that
someone may not plant within 30 days of Rosh haHashanah of Shemittah.
If he did, he must uproot the plant. And if he didn't? Rabbi Ba [a/k/a R'
Abba] and R' Ami were staying in Tzur and this question came up, and
R' Ila ruled they must spill out the fruit.

    R' Ba said: I was not counted among them in the attic.
    R' Yonah and R' Yitzchaq bar Tivlei in the name of R' Lazar [a/k/a
    R' Elazar]: Ein mechadshin al hegezeirah.
    R' Asi said R Yitzchaq bar Tivlei in the name of R' Lazar:  Ein
    mosifin al hahlakhah.

It seems to be a pretty clear source that there is no new law without a
formal Sanhedrin session and hands being counted. R' Ba makes reference
to the famous meeting in R' Chananiah ben Chizqiyah ben Garon's attic,
when Beis Shamma and Beis Hillel convened a Beis Din haGadol and "18
devarim gazru bo bayom" (Mishnah Shabbos 1:4).

Interestingly, the Y-mi on the mishnah in Shabbos opens by saying that
this day was as difficult as the day the eigel was made. I don't know
what to make of it.

I mention this because RRW and I had a long misunderstanding which I
think just boiled down to whether or not "taqnah" really means only
in the sense of Hil Mamrim pereq 2, and other usages are loose one,
or whether I was being idiosyncratic on insisting on that tight usage.

Here we see that a real gezeirah requires a formal vote, and according
to R' Asi's version, any new din does.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH


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