Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 188

• 1. How much for the mayo? (Tal Moshe Zwecker)
• 2. Re: How much for the mayo? (Allan Engel)
• 3. Re: How much for the mayo? (Gershon Dubin)
• 4. Re: How much for the mayo? (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. Re: How much for the mayo? (Harry Maryles)
• 6. Re: How much for the mayo? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: How much for the mayo? (Zev Sero)
• 8. How much for the mayo? (Jonathan Dickson)
• 9. Re: How much for the mayo? (Simon Montagu)
• 10. Re: How much for the mayo? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: How much for the mayo? (Harry Maryles)
• 12. Re: Fwd: Re: Truth and the Rambam (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: How much for the mayo? (Zev Sero)

I think that it doesnt matter what you payed for it or in your case
didnt pay for the mayo

It is now your property which your neighbor wishes to buy, her
expression how much does she "owe" you for it is meaningless, since
you could give it to her as a gift if you wish

You could charge her any amount you wish that she would agree to pay,
if your goal is to be able to buy a new jar, at some later date it
seems perfectly acceptable to charge her the $4. Or if you want to be
a nice friendly neighbor you could charge her less, but it seems to me
that its up to you.

Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
Director Machon Be'er Mayim Chaim
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On 10/24/10, T6...@aol.com <T6...@aol.com> wrote:
> I bought a large jar of mayonnaise, and the lady at the checkout  pointed
> out that it was on special that week,  "buy one, get one  free," so I might
> as well get a second jar...

> A few days later my neighbor asked me if I could spare a couple of spoons
> of mayo for her kids' lunch, as she was out of mayo.  I told her I could do
> better, I had a whole extra unopened jar of mayonnaise  on the shelf, which
>  I happily gave her.  She asked me how much she owed me for it, and this
> left me with a question.

> 1.  The replacement cost of the mayo...
> 2.  The actual cost of the mayo to me was zero...
> I charge her anything, I am stealing from her?
> 3.  In reality, no matter how the store advertises it, what I got was  two
> jars of mayo for four dollars.  So I should charge her two dollars...

Ask her to buy you a jar in a few weeks.

Not a good idea;  sa'ah besa'ah is a problem.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 05:50:08 -0400 Allan Engel <allan.en...@gmail.com>
writes:
Ask her to buy you a jar in a few weeks.

R"n Toby Katz asked:

> 2.  The actual cost of the mayo to me was zero -- since I only got
> that second jar because it was "get one free."  So I should charge
> her nothing? If I charge her anything, I am stealing from her?

My guess is that you can charge basically whatever you want. There are
no special restrictions on you relating to how much you paid for the
mayo. The only restrictions are those which would also relate to a
merchant, which (to my extremely unlearned mind) are related to the
normal selling price.

I could easily be mistaken, given how little Choshen Mishpat I've
learned. Here's a similar situation: Suppose a grocery store's
supplier offers a greatly reduced price on a certain product. Is the
grocery OBLIGATED to put that product on sale so as not to violate
issurim on overcharging? And if that is so, then must they be sure
that these particular boxes have all been sold, prior to going back to
the regular price?

Akiva Miller

Tell your neighbor how you bought it and charge?her $2.

HM

I would think that mei'iqar hadin, as long as you tell her the price
up front, you can go as high as $4.67 (ad velo ad bichlal) -- up to 1/6
above going rate.

That said, RnTK expressed being bothered by just charging replacement
cost. So, it would well be that just as Rav told Rabba bar bar Chana that
halakhah requires he go lifnim mishuras hadin and pay the porters who broke
the barrels they were hired to carry, she too may qualify for some obligation
to do more than the minimum.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

On 24/10/2010 8:24 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I would think that mei'iqar hadin, as long as you tell her the price
> up front, you can go as high as $4.67 (ad velo ad bichlal) -- up to 1/6
> above going rate.

First of all, it would be $5.00; the shtus is milgav, not milbar.
Second, mayo is a condiment, not a food, so IIRC (haven't got seforim
to check) the permitted profit margin is actually 100%.

--
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people's money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I am even more woefully ignorant of choshen mishpat than I am in the
rest of shulchan aruch, so I have no source to back this up, but my
instinctive answer would be, what is the cost to you of giving up that
jar of mayo, to which the answer is $4 because, assuming you would
otherwise have used it at some point, it will cost you $4 to replace
it.

The amount you paid for it is irrelevant. Same if someone gave it to
you as a gift.

However, if the special offer was still on and your friend could
easily have gone to the supermarket herself, she could have spent $4
and got two jars of mayo. So maybe you should tell her about the
special offer, and say she's welcome to your jar for $4, or she can go
to the supermarket herself and get two jars for the same price.

kol tuv

Jonny

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 01:19:05 EDT
From: T6...@aol.com
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
Subject: [Avodah] How much for the mayo?
Message-ID: <38ac8.54280252.39f51...@aol.com>

Here's a question of the type that I think Avodah-ites (Ovdim?) sometimes
like to discuss.

I bought a large jar of mayonnaise, and the lady at the checkout pointed
out that it was on special that week, "buy one, get one free," so I might
as well get a second jar -- which I did, even though I didn't need so much
mayo and now have extra mayo sitting on a shelf, not to be used probably for
many weeks.

The mayo cost, let's say, four dollars, something like that.

A few days later my neighbor asked me if I could spare a couple of spoons
of mayo for her kids' lunch, as she was out of mayo. I told her I could do
better, I had a whole extra unopened jar of mayonnaise on the shelf, which
I happily gave her. She asked me how much she owed me for it, and this
left me with a question.

1. The replacement cost of the mayo, weeks from now when I need some
more, will be $4 -- so I should charge her $4?

2. The actual cost of the mayo to me was zero -- since I only got that
second jar because it was "get one free." So I should charge her nothing? If

I charge her anything, I am stealing from her?

3. In reality, no matter how the store advertises it, what I got was two
jars of mayo for four dollars. So I should charge her two dollars for one
jar?

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On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> On 24/10/2010 8:24 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
>> I would think that mei'iqar hadin, as long as you tell her the price
>> up front, you can go as high as $4.67 (ad velo ad bichlal) -- up to 1/6
>> above going rate.
>>
>
> First of all, it would be $5.00; the shtus is milgav, not milbar.
>

Leshitatecha, why $5.00 and not $4.80?
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On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 10:30:12PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> First of all, it would be $5.00; the shtus is milgav, not milbar.

The mishnah's case (BM 49b) is someone who pays an extra 4 maneh on
something worth (or priced) 1 se'ah (=24 maneh). That comes to adding
1/6 to the list price, ie milebar. Similarly, the Rambam (Mekhirah 2:12)
discusses paying 5 or 7 for something that costs 6.

> Second, mayo is a condiment, not a food, so IIRC (haven't got seforim
> to check) the permitted profit margin is actually 100%.

This is the first I heard that ona'as mamon is different for food than
non-food. I looked at the sugya on BM 49b - 50b, and Hil' Mekhirah
12. Didn't see any such chiluq being made.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com> wrote:






On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:


On 24/10/2010 8:24 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

I would think that mei'iqar hadin, as long as you tell her the price
up front, you can go as high as $4.67 (ad velo ad bichlal) -- up to 1/6
above going rate.

First of all, it would be $5.00; the shtus is milgav, not milbar.


Leshitatecha, why $5.00 and not $4.80?
===========================================
?
If memory serves - I would just like to point out that normal profit
margins are not subject the the Shtus restrictions of Ona'ah. One may
charge as much as the market bares even if it is more than a Shtus. If
for example you pay $5 dollars for an item wholesale that sells for
$10 retail?in the market place, there is absolutely nothing wrong with
selling it for $10, which is far more than a Shtus. It is double
(100%) what you paid.
?
A Shtus is only 1/6th (about 17% -?even if it is measured
miligav).?The Issur Ona'ah applies only to the amount which is above
the normal market price. In this example Ona'ah applies only to the
amount over? $10 which one is permtted to over-charge if it is under a
Shtus.
?
HM
?
Want Emes and Emunah in your life?

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/





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I think RDR and I are talking across each other largely because I
capitalized the "T" in "Truth". It caused conflation with something
else I wrote.

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 02:44:57PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
>> I'm not sure of the relevence of any of this.

> You started by arguing about whether the Rambam views halacha as evolving.
> I was primarily interested in a side point: you seemed to be arguing
> that, according to the Rambam, halacha is an alternative to metaphysics.
> I think that's false, with the exception that, according to the Rambam,
> halacha provides an introduction to a few select metaphysical doctrines
> (like God's existence and unity).

I never intended to propose that "according to the Rambam, halacha is
an alternative to metaphysics." Since RZL also expressed uncertainty
about understanding my point, let me try again from a clean slate.

Notice how Hil' Mamrim never mentions the word "pesaq" or some other
language that would speak to the interpretation of law. The Rambam's
discussion of halachic authority is entirely about the creation of *new*
din or minhag.

Another lacuna from Hil' Mamrim is the concept of sevara. Everything
is from derashos -- again, because I believe the Rambam is discussing
new dinim exclusively. When there is a dispute in the implications of
existing law, it's right vs wrong.

Then we found that he looks to the mishnah to understand the mishnah, and
if the gemara's peshat seems a dochaq, the Rambam fits the gemara to the
mishnah. Rather than assuming the gemara represents *interpretation* if
the mishnah, as we're forced to conclude some more dachuq understanding,
and thus taking the amoraim's version of the mishnah as more halachically
binding than the mishnah as it reads to us -- and in particular to the
Rambam himself.

Similarly, the two letters in which the Rambam explicitly says he is
doing the same WRT the interpretations of the ge'onim of the Talmud Bavli.

Also, the Rambam ascribes all real machloqesin to differences in new
law, and thus why a halakhah leMoshe miSinai couldn't become subject to
a machloqes. I wrote "real machloqes", because there can obviously be
a dispute in which one side is wrong -- but an eilu va'eilu is bedavqa
in building new law. And this is why the Rambam focuses on batei
Hillel veShammai "shelo shimshu es rabosam", because the explosion of
disputes leshitaso must mean the multiplication of error.

I described the Rambam's approach to halakhah as a search for truth --
for determining what the law as legislated actually was.

I then tied this to Artisto's general gestalt about the value of truth,
and how man's highest calling is to seek truth. I only mentioned the
Rambam's notion of redemption through knowing philosophically about G-d
to show that he bought into that general worldview. And in that worldview,
a legal process is inferior to a hunt for facts.

Just as the Rambam sets the ideal, the Adam qodem hacheit, as being
about truth vs falsehood, and similarly ends the Moreh as giving a
hierarchy of perfections - property, bodily, moral and finally "the
highest, intellectual faculties; the possession of such notions which
lead to true metaphysical opinions as regards G-d."

And in such a worldview, halakhah being fact-finding rather than
law-interpreting would be more noble.

As I wrote, I understand the Rambam as placing following halakhah as a
/tool/ for allowing the obtaining truths about G-d.




Now to move on to how that is consistent with the project of the Yad.
Why did the Rambam tell chakhmei Luneil to go to the primary sources
and second-guess him? Is this what he expected of his talmidim?

I think that since halakhah that is nispasheit is binding, the Rambam
saw a much smaller role for going to primary sources when dealing with
the community of his followers. But not that the two approaches were
different in kind.

...
> No, the Rambam's introduction is a common motif of advertising: now you
> have dozens of tools in your kitchen but you can replace them all with
> my new slicingdicingcrushingmincing machine; now you have dozens of
> books in your home to help your schoolkid, now you can replace them all
> with my new superduperencyclopedia.  The Rambam says everyone "katan
> v'gadol", can replace their entire Beis Midrash with the MT and a Tanach.

"Halakhah" 41 explains that he wrote the Yad so that everyone would know
dinei Torah rather than needing to go through "kol eilu hachiburin vehapeirushin
hanimtza'im miymos Rabeinu haQadosh ve'ad achshav".

I assume RDR is referring to the next "halakhah", #42:
Until all the laws would be revealed leqaton velagadol in the law of
every mitzvah and mitzvah, "kedei shelo yehei adam tzarikh lechibur
acheir ba'olam bedin medinei Yisrael".

It's clear from Talmud Torah 1:11 that he expected halachic decisions to
come from talmud, in the sense of getting a feel from the flow of TSBP and
its reasoning. The question is whether he expected someone to be able
to engage in talmud without returning to the books called the "talmud"
and just deducing from what was in the Yad.

What I see is what boils down to a claim that the MT replaces the study
of mishnah -- in the sense of settled halakhah, the "shelish bemishnah".
(And note the name of the work itself, although that's not muchrach.)
I do not see anything that says that someone capable on focusing on
talmud, should stop there. And it would seem from his advice to Luneil
that he didn't hold it should.

Again, assuming a lack of "two schools" approach, one for his own talmidim
and one for Luneil, in contrast to RDR's assumption.

For that matter, his own talmidim were told to open the gemara when
he and the Rif disagree. Which means, if nothing else, the Yad didn't
replace the need to study Rif for them. And I saw this line as "if
the halakhah that is nispasheit to our" -- the Rambam's and Rif's --
"community is inconsistent, that's when you really need to take the time
to resolve it yourself.

But all of this is somewhat tangential. Whether the Rambam had a different
plan for his own talmidim than for Luneil, what I wrote above is still
a description of how the Rambam himself "did halakhah".

Which I find both (1) very different from that of other rishonim, or
of acharonim down through the various derakhim we follow today, and (2)
blatantly Aristotilian in tenor.

Please let me know (perhaps off-list) if I was clearer this time.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 25/10/2010 6:05 AM, Simon Montagu wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name <mailto:z...@sero.name>> wrote:
>     On 24/10/2010 8:24 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

>>> I would think that mei'iqar hadin, as long as you tell her the price
>>> up front, you can go as high as $4.67 (ad velo ad bichlal) -- up to 1/6
>>> above going rate.

>> First of all, it would be $5.00; the shtus is milgav, not milbar.

> Leshitatecha, why $5.00 and not $4.80?

You're right, of course.  20% of $4 is 80c, not $1. My only excuse
is that it was late, and the arithmetic part of my brain had already
fallen asleep.

--
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people's money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


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