Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 178

Tue, 28 Sep 2010

• 1. Re: lulav waving (Micha Berger)
• 2. BeChaGecha (Meir Rabi)
• 3. water challa (SBA Gmail)
• 4. water challa (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 5. Re: reasons for aliya (T6...@aol.com)
• 6. Re: Season's Greetings (T6...@aol.com)
• 7. direction of avodah (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re lulav waving (D&E-H Bannett)
• 9. No HaKafos Even on Simchas Torah (cgsteinm...@juno.com)
• 10. Re: water challa (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 11. Leshono Habo beYerushalayim (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 12. Re: Mezuzos for Nachriim (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Mezuzos for Nachriim (Micha Berger)
• 14. Sukka must be kosher for sleeping? (Ben Waxman)
• 15. Re: Season's Greetings (Poppers, Michael)
• 16. Re: Season's Greetings (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: direction of tefillah - lulav (Poppers, Michael)
• 18. Re: Sukka must be kosher for sleeping? (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 19. Re: Sukka must be kosher for sleeping? (Zev Sero)

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 07:16:42PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Some people said their minhag was to do one waving per syllable meaning
: 2 for ana, 3 for hoshea and 1 for na. Does anyone know a source for this?

You don't think it's just stam logistics without actual basis? After all,
waving two directions during that final "nna" or "na" is difficult. Simple
habit would shift people to one wave per syllable. (Particularly when
people are relating in terms of nostalgia and sounds, rather than meaning
and words.)

Does your siddur have a dageish in the nun? If so, for both "hoshi'ah"
and "hatzliachah"?

Dr. Meshullam Klarberg wrote <http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/3333>:
    The same problem occurs in the reading of Hallel in the pasuk
    ana h' hoshiah na, ana h' hatzlichah na (Psalms 118:25), with
    its two elongated imperatives. Minchat Shai, a commentary that
    deals with Masorah and grammar, quotes the Masorah on hatzlichah
    as saying that there is none identical to it with the stress on
    the last syllable, and there is one vehatzlichah (Nehemiah 1:11)
    with penultimate stress. This means that, contrary to the accepted
    rules, hatzlichah in our pasuk should be read with the stress on the
    last syllable. Minchat Shai discusses this assertion at length and
    concludes that if one is in doubt one should follow the custom. Many
    siddurim indicate the stress on this word in accordance with the
    Masorah as reported by Minchat Shai. In the Tenach, which Rabbi
    M. Breuer edited (according to the Masorah of Ben Asher in Keter
    Aram Tzova), he indicated that hoshiah and hatzlichah should both
    be read with penultimate stress. Many chazanim read it this way.

Another nafqa mina is that according to the Minchas Shai it should read:
"Ana H' hosi'ah nna; ana H' hatzlichah na." Older siddurim, meaning
pre-ArtScroll, conform to this. ArtScroll, at least the Hebrew-only Ashk
I looked into yesterday, does not.

Not that I think waving in two directions during "nna" is made much
easier by the dageish...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

VeSamachTa BeChaGecha
I believe this is the the only time in the entire Torah that this word,
BeChaGecha, is used.
Whose Chag is it?

BaKesse LeYom Chagenu? Is said in Tehillim.
Who is included in that Chag? Only ours? or also that of HKBH?

One would have thought that this occasion, for rejoicing, more than any
other occasion should be HKBH's and not restricted to us and exclusive of
HKBH
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100926/ddef409f/attachment-0001.htm>

From: Saul.Z.Newman
anyone ever hear of  a minhag to use  water challa  on the 1st  nite of
sukkot?
>
Not me.
But then has anyobe heard of minhag to use square lokshen in the soup on RH?

I hadn't.
But  a number of people (of Hungarian stock) In my Shul  claim to have such
a minhag.

SBA
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100926/df17d1c7/attachment-0001.htm>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100926/5fee78df/attachment-0001.htm>

From: Eli Turkel _eliturkel@gmail.com_ (mailto:elitur...@gmail.com) 


>> A list of when Yom Kippur comes out this  decade

2010  Sat
2011  Sat
2012  Wed
2013   Sat
2014  Sat
2015  Wed
2016  Wed
2017   Sat
2018  Wed
2019  Wed



....When Yom Kippur is on  Shabbat (5 times including this year) Succot &
Simchat Torah is a 3 day  holiday outside of EY <<



Eli Turkel
 

>>>>>
 
And Rosh Hashana is a three-day holiday both in and outside of E'Y.   (When 
I invited guests for "the third night of Rosh Hashana" they were confused,  
but isn't that really what Shabbos Shuva was this year?)
 


--Toby Katz
==========




--------------------  






-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100926/ef8d9748/attachment-0001.htm>

 
From: "Gershon Dubin" _gershon.dubin@juno.com_ 
(mailto:gershon.du...@juno.com) 

Piska  tava is with a "sov", not a samech (Hebrew speakers, think  "petek"

Gershon
_gershon.dubin@juno.com_ (mailto:gershon.du...@juno.com) 

 
 
>>>>
Yiddish speakers like my mother say, "A gitte kvittel."
 
 

--Toby Katz
==========



-------------------- 





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100926/22646d16/attachment-0001.htm>

<<At least the ARI's directions (as I've seen them) start with an
instruction to face east.  So no matter which way you are davening,
you first turn to the east, and then the directions are correct in
terms of right, left, etc.>>

Yes this is what is quoted by MB.
However, if one looks in Artscroll they leave out the phrase "face east"
In my shul which faces south I was the only one to turn to the east
and then begin.

So while I agree with Zev my question was whether there is any basis for facing
the aron kodesh and then begin forward, right etc.
which seems to be the poular custom


-- 
Eli Turkel

Re: the comments on-list on the order, timing, and 
directions of the na'anu'im during hallel.

Methinks, as an elder, it is appropriate for me to remind 
the list members of the old way to wave the four minim 
during hallel.

The siddurim of the geonim,R' Amram and R' Sa'adia and 
slightly later of R' Shlomo ben Natan all give the same 
instructions.   While saying the words Hodu and Ana the 
lulav is moved forward and then back.  While saying the 
words laShem and Hashem the lulav is moved upwards and then 
downwards.

There are no six directions and no three times.  And, quite 
obviously, the rule of not waving while saying the Shem 
could not have existed.

I am told that the Meiri states in Magen Avot, p. 150, that 
"Rabbenu Sa'adia Gaon said that the custom is to mitkaven to 
raise the lulav up on hazkarat Hashem of Hodu LaShem and Ana 
Hashem and, while he gemara on Sukkot 37b says molikh umevi 
l'mi she'arba ruchut shelo, this doesn't mean that the lulav 
should be moved and shaken to the four ruchot. And even the 
geonim write that he who does so is following a "da'at 
chitzoni."

I believe I wrote about this on-list some time ago when, for 
the first time in my life, I saw someone wave in accordance 
with the da'at hageonim.


David 

 "Prof. Levine" <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> wrote

> There certainly were no HaKafos in Germany or in Ashkenaz shuls on 
> Shemini Atzeres.  Indeed, it is clear from R. Avraham Yari's 
> fascinating sefer, Toldos Chag Simchas Torah, that making HaKafos on 
> SA is a mistake. The ARI introduced HaKafos in Sefas on the night 
> after SA, not on SA at night.  See Yari's book for a detailed 
> discussion of how an error crept into the writings of those who 
> quoted what R. Chaim Vital wrote about what the ARI did and when he 
> did it.
> 
> YL

Ain chodosh tachas hashemesh - this "mistake" was already discussed at
length in 2006, in response to an almost identical post by the same
author.
For those interested, see my response (among many others!)
http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2006q4/000405.h
tml.
Gut Moed
CGS
____________________________________________________________
Six Sigma Certification
Villanova Six Sigma Certification 100% Online Program - Free Info.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c9f55b159037d22264st05duc

R' Saul Newman asked:
> anyone ever hear of a minhag to use water challa on the 1st nite of sukkot?

I heard of this, though I can't remember when or where. The reason behind
it was to insure that we are eating pas gamur, like at the seder, and not
something that might be pas babaa b'kisnin.

Akiva Miller


____________________________________________________________
Get Your Gov Debt Bailout
New state credit laws allow consumers to legally reduce debt up to 60%. Learn More.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ca08c2799bf1da308est03vuc

In the thread "G'mar Tov Vs G'mar Chasima Tova", R' SBA asked:

> Shouting "Leshono Habo beYerushalayim" after Neilah - when in Yerushalyim
> - is obviously not  an issue for your standard Charedi 'non-zionist','
> 'non-reshit tzemichat geulatenu' types. But I was (quite seriously)
> wondering what the RZ's here in Jm were thinking as they said it.

This question came up quite often when I was In Yerushalayim, both on YK
and Pesach, but I never got a satisfactory answer (other than that of the
Satmar Rov, as SBA mentioned).

Then, after four consecutive years in which I was zoche to have only one
Seder, I found myself back in New Jersey. At the end of our second seder, a
good friend, who was also a yored chadash, provided the perfect answer:
Just because one in zocheh to be in Yerushalayim one year, he can't rely on
that for the future, and still needs to daven for the continued zechus next
year.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Get Your Gov Debt Bailout
New state credit laws allow consumers to legally reduce debt up to 60%. Learn More.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ca08dd2d640eda337ast03vuc

On 22/09/2010 3:57 AM, Micha Berger wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 03:43:23PM +1000, Zev Sero wrote::
>> Of course there's a major problem with this: it's an open gemara that
>> Rebbi gave a mezuzah to his friend Ardeban.
>
> That was probably the last Parthian King, Artevan IV -- not a friend.

Yes a friend.  Artevan and Antoninus were both close friends of Rebbi.
(AZ 10b/11a)


> In another version (Y-mi Pei'ah 1:1, 15b) has the giver as Rav, not Rebbe.

Y'mi 1:1 (daf 4a) has Rebbi, not Rav.  I can't find anything related
at daf 15b.  In fact, the word "mezuzah" seems to appear only once in
the whole masechta: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/r/r12.htm


> Although why Rebbe/Rav, who lived in the Roman colony of EY would be
> sending a gift to the Parthian ruler is a mystery.

Because Artevan sent him a present first, and it's menchlich to
reciprocate.  Especially to one's close friends.


> But this is all just wild speculation on my part. Whatever the reason
> for the gift was, this was to the king of an empire with a large Jewish
> population. Since eivah was already cited as a matir

By whom?


> it could well have been involved here.

Rebbi was surely not afraid that his friend would harm the Jews, whether
he got a present or not.


> In fact, I think the Maharil which is the Rama's
> source uses this very story as his source for saying it's mutar in the
> case of potential eivah.

But the Maharil (as quoted here) *forbade* it, even in the case of eivah.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 04:59:40PM +1000, Zev Sero wrote:
>> That was probably the last Parthian King, Artevan IV -- not a friend.

> Yes a friend.  Artevan and Antoninus were both close friends of Rebbi.
> (AZ 10b/11a)

Ardechan was a friend of Rav. Different name on one side, possibly
different on the other.

Ardechan was probably Ardashir (Artachshesthra), the founder of the
Sassanid Dynasty of Persia, and who overthrew the Parthian Empire. This
is part of my conjectured history of last post -- we got along with the
Persians, which suggests that by the end of their empire, we didn't get
along with the Parthians.

He died in 242 CE, when Rav was at his prime. (Rav was niftar 7 years
later.)

>> In another version (Y-mi Pei'ah 1:1, 15b) has the giver as Rav, not Rebbe.

> Y'mi 1:1 (daf 4a) has Rebbi, not Rav.  I can't find anything related
> at daf 15b.  In fact, the word "mezuzah" seems to appear only once in
> the whole masechta: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/r/r12.htm

Well, check Breishis Rabba 35:3 or 35:16 (depending on edition), then.

Sorry for the Y-mi reference, it's 15d -- I took it at time when I
wasn't yet in posession of a Vilna edition. (The Vilna Edition
has "R' haQadosh", ie "Rebbe".) I was caught on one of the Y-mi's
many girsaos issues.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Someone told me that he heard a "svara shiyur" in which the rav said that
it could be that if a sukka is not suitable for sleeping in, then it isn't
kosher for eating in. For example, if a sukka is mosquito infected and you
can't sleep in it, then you shouldn't eat in it.

Anyone hear anything like this halacha l'ma'aseh?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100927/e70ed0b1/attachment-0001.htm>

In Avodah V27n176, R'Micha (as part of arguing against "g'mar tov") responded to RSW:
> Particularly if you believe the satan could be listaning, and decide
to take the person's wish that the other should have a "good ending"
literally. I mean, it beats a slow and painful death, but still, not
what I would want wished for someone's coming year. <
(and RSBA echoed this type of objection in the subsequent digest)

Al t'daqdeiq b'baqbuq ela mah sheb'socho/al tistakeil b'kankan ela b'mah
sheyeish-bo (by which, among other meanings, I'm saying we should "care"
about the intent of the wisher, not what a 3rd party, be s/he/it human or
angelic, hears).  How ironic for anyone to judge what R'uvein is wishing
Shim'on -- what happened (to bring other mandates from Maseches Avos) to al
tadin es chaveircha ad shetagi'a limqomo and to judging l'kaf z'chus,
especially during _the_ time of judgement?

Gut Moeid/Moadim l'Simcha! and all the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 09:19:51PM -0400, Poppers, Michael wrote:
: ... I'm saying we should "care" about the intent of the wisher, not
: what a 3rd party, be s/he/it human or angelic, hears). How ironic for
: anyone to judge what R'uvein is wishing Shim'on...

We aren't judging Re'uvein, whose intent is obvious and who is just
using common coinage.

We are judging the coinage and finding it wanting.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

In Avodah V27n177#11, RET wrote:
> shaking of the lulav (must be better term) <
How about "waving"?  (Am I imagining this, or does a rishon [e.g. RaShY]
describe "na'anu'im" as being like a t'nufah [hence, e.g., one may want to
position his hands around the arba minim and move them the way a kohen
would perform t'nufah]?  What RaShY says on Shmos 29:24 certainly reminds
me of na'anu'im....)

P.S. I see that, later in the same digest, in thread "lulav waving," RET
used the term "waving," but now I have the above-noted Q re na'anu'im, so
I'm still sending this message to Avodah....  Oh, and in that thread, RET
wrote, "A second topic was that I said to do 2 wavings per word for ana
(hashem) hoshea na" -- yes, such is done in KAJ/"Breuer's."  (Also, "yomar"/yom'ru" takes two na'anu'im.)

Gut Moeid and all the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

R' Ben Waxman:
Someone told me that he heard a "svara shiyur" in which the rav said that it
could be that if a sukka is not suitable for sleeping in, then it isn't
kosher for eating in. For example, if a sukka is mosquito infected and you
can't sleep in it, then you shouldn't eat in it.
?
Anyone hear anything like this halacha l'ma'aseh?
---------------


Mishneh Berurah there, Se'if Katan 18 and Shaar HaTziyun Se'if Katan 22. It
seems that if it is impossible to build your Sukkah without mosquitoes then
it will be Kosher for eating, even though there are mosquitoes there and you
can't sleep there; if you could have built it in a non-mosquito infested
area and you chose not to, then the Sukkah is not Kosher.

KT and GM,
MYG

On 28/09/2010 3:06 AM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Someone told me that he heard a "svara shiyur" in which the rav said
> that it could be that if a sukka is not suitable for sleeping in, then
> it isn't kosher for eating in. For example, if a sukka is mosquito
> infected and you can't sleep in it, then you shouldn't eat in it.
> Anyone hear anything like this halacha l'ma'aseh?

Ramo OC 640:4


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 178
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."