Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 177

• 1. Mezuzos for Nachriim (Micha Berger)
• 2. which way to Jerusalem (Eli Turkel)
• 3. G'mar Tov Vs G'mar Chasima Tova (SBA Gmail)
• 4. Re: Season's Greetings (SBA Gmail)
• 5. Re: Season's Greetings (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: lulav hadavuk (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: HaMelech HaMishpot (SBA Gmail)
• 8. Re: Season's Greetings (Gershon Dubin)
• 9. Re: Season's Greetings (SBA Gmail)
• 10. water challa (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 11. direction of tefillah - lulav (Eli Turkel)
• 12. reasons for aliya (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Re: Starting Shacharis early the day after Yom Kippur (Poppers, Michael)
• 14. lulav waving (Eli Turkel)
• 15. No HaKafos Even on Simchas Torah (Prof. Levine)
• 16. Re: direction of tefillah - lulav (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: No HaKafos Even on Simchas Torah (Micha Berger)

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 02:13:56PM +0200, R Danny Schoemann wrote to
Areivim, cut down and slightly bowlderized:
: Source: Igros Moshe YD-1, Siman 182, according to the Sefer Kvi'as
: Mezuza Kehilchoso 14:8

: (BTW, HoRav Dovid Arye Morgenstern shlita allowed Answers.com to
: remove their Mezuzot when they moved, since the place was going to
: undergo renovations, and Mezuzot are allergic to paint. Since we had
: to remove them, we could take them with, and the next owner would have
: to worry about his own Mezuzot. Apparently the IgM OC-5 Siman 40 says
: so in the name of Rav Henkin zt"l,  according to the Sefer Kvi'as
: Mezuza Kehilchoso 14:7)

: One is not allowed to sell a [nachri] a Mezuza - nor give one as a gift -
: even if the Goy will look after it, except in the case of Aivoh.

: Source: Sefer Kvi'as Mezuza Kehilchoso 14:8, who quotes the Shulcahn
: Aruch "Shom" as his source - but each ibid refers to the previous
: ibid, for many pages of long footnotes, so I have to assume it's in YD
: Hil. Mezuza.

: The SA's source for the 2nd halocho  is the Shu"t Maharil Chadashot
: Siman 123 who was asked about a Governor who requested a Mezuza - and
: in return would grant lifelong protection to the Jew. The Maharil
: forbade it, even if the governor were to look after it respectfully.

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 03:43:23PM +1000, Zev Sero wrote::
> Of course there's a major problem with this: it's an open gemara that
> Rebbi gave a mezuzah to his friend Ardeban.

That was probably the last Parthian King, Artevan IV -- not a friend.
In another version (Y-mi Pei'ah 1:1, 15b) has the giver as Rav, not Rebbe.
Although why Rebbe/Rav, who lived in the Roman colony of EY would be
sending a gift to the Parthian ruler is a mystery.

Maybe the politics that at Artevan's death led to the Parthians being
folded into the Persian province of Khorasan posed some threat to the
Jews of Bavel. The Parthians ruled Bablonia from 126 BCE until the
Sassianid period, when Parthia ceased to exist -- which is just around
when amoraim started moving there in numbers.

But this is all just wild speculation on my part. Whatever the reason
for the gift was, this was to the king of an empire with a large Jewish
population. Since eivah was already cited as a matir, it could well have
been involved here. In fact, I think the Maharil which is the Rama's
source uses this very story as his source for saying it's mutar in the
case of potential eivah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
mi...@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

<<Do we even know what direction they prayed in Bavel, ie   did they
realize that EY was almost due east (again depending on where in
Bavel)? since no one
traveled that way?>>

Surely they knew that;  they called E"Y Maarava.  >>>

Note however, R. Chanina (Bava Batra 25a) instructs R. Ashi, "Those
like you who live to the north of Eretz Yisrael should turn to the
south?"


--
Eli Turkel

From: Simon Wanderer <>
Anyone have any thoughts / sources on G'mar Tov Vs G'mar Chasima Tova ?
 I would have expected this to be well-trodden ground on the internet, but a
quick google search did not turn anything up.
++

I am almost positive that (just like every other topic under the sun) we
have discussed this here or on Areivim previously (and maybe even more than
once).

Being a bit of a 'wanderer' myself right now, I don't have quick access to
my usual seforim, but IIRC, the Munkatcher Rav zt'l is strongly against
"Gmar Tov",
Again, IIRC,the reason being because it sounds like you are wishing a 'good
finish' (which could indicate-  to that person's life), and the last thing
we want to wish or talk about is the end of someone's life.

If anyone has the Darkei Chaim veSholom, he should find it there - I think.
==

2) Shouting "Leshono Habo beYerushalayim" after Neilah - when in Yerushalyim
- is obviousld not  an issue for your standard Charedi 'non-zionist','
'non-reshit tzemichat geulatenu' types.
But I was (quite seriously) wondering what the RZ's here in Jm were thinking
as they said it.

And if the answer is that for them it refers to the rebuilding of the BHMK,
shouldn't the wording of this age-old bakasha be altered? In fact it should
have been done so at the time of the invention of "RTzG" and "Aschalta
deGeula" terms.

And if it wasn't done then, maybe someone should put in a request to the
Sanhedin )presumably they are still around - despite having been very quite
recently) or that (ex-Australian-rabbi led) Shiloh thing - who don't have
any fears of changing tradition etc? (Come to think of it, they too have
been out of action for quite a while.)

And to those who haven't yet heard or read the explanation of the SR zt'l on
why we say' Leshana HABO' and not "Beshana Zu" - ayen the Artscroll YK
Machzor, vetimtza nachas.

Wishing all a continuing Gemar Chasima Tova and a Git YT

SBA
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From: Micha Berger <>
As for "Gemar Tov", I think it's just Israeli shorthand, exchanging 3
syllables (which most slur into two by making that first sheva nach)
in place of 7 (or six, as again most do say just "gmar").
>>

I doubt it. As I already posted, the Munkatcher Rav zt'l talks about it -
bayomim haheim - in der heim.
Also, IIANM, it is said so in Lubavitch (and I have heard it from others as
well), nothing to do with israel.

>>It could also be an attempt to translate the Aramaic "pisqa tava".
How???

SBA
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On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:02:43PM +0200, SBA Gmail wrote:
:> I doubt it. As I already posted, the Munkatcher Rav zt'l talks about it -
:> bayomim haheim - in der heim.
:> Also, IIANM, it is said so in Lubavitch...

You did say that in previous iterations. I forgot and this just jogged my
memory. Although the Muncaczer's petirah was well after the start of
Zionist norm and idiom, so I'm not sure how it's a raayah against. L,
OTOH, is more to the point.

:> It could also be an attempt to translate the Aramaic "pisqa tava".

: How???

Lifsoq is to stop.

If you think about it the idiom "pesaq halakhah" seems to be saying the
poseiq deemed one tzad unusable, rather than about declaring his own
position din.

As RSBA's question denotes, though, I think that it's translating
the idiomatic use of pisqa as though it were literal, perhaps because
"gemar chasimah" is already being passed around. And therefore it's a
translation arror. Again, until I hear more about L.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org        All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org   to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 05:19:50PM -0700, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: http://www.ladaat.net/article.php?do=viewarticle&;articleid=9066   kosher?

I can't see what would pasl the lulav, the cheftzah itself.
I would ask, though, if the glue were a chatzizah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

From: Yitzchok Zirkind <>
Melech Ohev Tzdaka can mean the Tzdakah and Mishpat that we do.
 Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can anyone help explain why omitting Melech Ohev Tzadakah or Melech Ohev
> Mishpat, is in flavour with the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah?

I am unsure if my dear mechutan RM Rabi (with whom we share a gorgeous
granddaughter KAH - the main reason of our visit here to EY) is asking this,
but just in case not, let me put a question in my words:

Wouldn't it be more in keeping with the spirit of the "Yemei haRachamim
vehaSelichos" that during the AYT we prefer the  "Melech ohev tzedaka
umishpot" ie, reminding Hashem to deal with us also via the midddah of
Tzedaka - rather than only {Hamelech) "Hamishpot"?

SBA
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From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>

<<Lifsoq is to stop.

If you think about it the idiom "pesaq halakhah" seems to be saying the
poseiq deemed one tzad unusable, rather than about declaring his own
position din.

As RSBA's question denotes, though, I think that it's translating
the idiomatic use of pisqa as though it were literal, perhaps because
"gemar chasimah" is already being passed around. And therefore it's a
translation arror. Again, until I hear more about L.>>

Piska tava is with a "sov", not a samech (Hebrew speakers, think "petek"

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com


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Piska tava "is the non-Yiddish version of "a git kvittel".

A kvittel being usually written on a small piece of paper ie, "piska"

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:11 PM, Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>wrote:

> From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
>
>
> <<Lifsoq is to stop.
>
> If you think about it the idiom "pesaq halakhah" seems to be saying the
> poseiq deemed one tzad unusable, rather than about declaring his own
> position din.
>
> As RSBA's question denotes, though, I think that it's translating
> the idiomatic use of pisqa as though it were literal, perhaps because
> "gemar chasimah" is already being passed around. And therefore it's a
> translation arror. Again, until I hear more about L.>>
>
> Piska tava is with a "sov", not a samech (Hebrew speakers, think "petek"
>
> Gershon
> gershon.du...@juno.com
>
>
>
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anyone ever hear of  a minhag to use  water challa  on the 1st  nite of
sukkot?

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In our discussion of the direction to daven, many perform shaking of
the lulav (must be better term)
in the directions
east, south, west, north, up and down
or
south, north, east, up, down, west

according to this whether it is right or left or front or back first
depends on where one is.
i.e. the directions are in terms of geography and not right, left etc.

Note according to the mechaber one turns the entire body while
according to the Ramah
once always faces east and moves ones head


--
Eli Turkel

A list of when Yom Kippur comes out this decade

2010  Sat
2011  Sat
2012  Wed
2013  Sat
2014  Sat
2015  Wed
2016  Wed
2017  Sat
2018  Wed
2019  Wed

note there are 4 possible dates  monday,wednesday, shabbat and only 2
comes up in 10 years

When Yom Kippur is on shabbat (5 times including this year) Succot &
Simchat Torah
is a 3 day holiday outside of EY

Also note that the mitzvah of lulav&etrog is from the Torah 7 days
only in the mikdash.
According to Rambam mikdash includes all of Jerusalem (how much today
is debatable
but at least the old city which was included in the ancient Jerusalem).
So doing lulav at the kotel leads to mitzvah from the Torah all 7 days (Rambam)


--
Eli Turkel

In Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 176, RMBluke wrote:
> The acharonim (see the Mateh Efraim and Aruch Hashulchan at the end of
> Siman 624) bring down a minhag to get up early to daven the day after
> Yom Kippur so the Satan will not be able to complain.
> Somehow this has turned into a minhag to start davening 5 minutes
> earlier in parts of Israel. The 6:30 minyan starts at 6:25 the 7:00
> minyan starts at 6:55 and even the 8:00 minyan starts at 7:55.
> IMHO I don't see how this is mekayem the minhag at all. There is no
> way that going 5 minutes early to an 8:00 minyan is called mashkimim.
> This is just another instance where the spirit of the minhag is
> completely ignored for a doubtful mechanical kiyum.
> Does anyone else have this minhag in their neighborhood to start davening 5 minutes earlier today? <
The minhag apparently predates those noted acharonim, and perhaps it
was brought down as a siman of one's intent (which a five-minute
period suffices to indicate) rather than specifically as "getting up
early" in the manner that one had previously been doing since before
Rosh haShanah.  At any rate, to answer the Q: yes, such was the minhag
in KAJ/"Breuer's."

Best wishes to all for a Chag Sameach/Gut Yuntef from
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

I gave a drasha in my shul about lulav waving and mentioned various
shitot about the directions in terms of east, etc.

Several people complained afterwards that their siddur, eg Artscroll mentioned
front, right, back, left, up, down

The MB explicitly says one should face east and then the above hold.
I have seen opinions that if one cant face east then what is important
is the global
directions east, north etc.
Does anyone indeed say that what is important is front, right etc.

In our shul all the seats and Aron Kodesh face south (Jerusalem is south east)
and people do the lulav waving facing south and front,right etc. which to me
doesnt seem right.

A second topic was that I said to do 2 wavings per word for ana
(hashem) hoshea na.
Some people said their minhag was to do one waving per syllable meaning
2 for ana, 3 for hoshea and 1 for na. Does anyone know a source for this?

Finally, someone pointed out that the first and last letters of the Torah are
bet, lamed.
The forst and last letters of Nach are vav, lamed
which spells lulav

Those outside of EY I hope you enjoyed your 3 day yom-tov-shabbat

--
Eli Turkel

HaKafos on Simchas Torah were not introduced until the latter part of
the 16th century by the ARI is Sefas. From there they first spread to
various parts of EY and then to Chutz L'Aretz.  However, there was
opposition to this "new innovation" in many places. One place was in
Frankfurt am Main.  From what I have posted at
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/no_hakafas.pdf  HaKafos
were introduced in Frankfurt, then abolished, then introduced again,
then abolished, etc.  The opposition was so strong that one writer
categorized them in very strong language. See
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/no_hakafas.pdf

For the record, in most of Germany there were no HaKafos at night on
Simchas Torah.HaKafos were made only during the day. RSRH introduced
HaKafos at night on Simchas Torah in Frankfurt, but there certainly
was opposition. Rav S. Schwab introduced HaKafos at night at Shearith
Israel in Baltimore shortly after he became the shul's rov.

There certainly were no HaKafos in Germany or in Ashkenaz shuls on
Shemini Atzeres.  Indeed, it is clear from R. Avraham Yari's
fascinating sefer, Toldos Chag Simchas Torah, that making HaKafos on
SA is a mistake. The ARI introduced HaKafos in Sefas on the night
after SA, not on SA at night.  See Yari's book for a detailed
discussion of how an error crept into the writings of those who
quoted what R. Chaim Vital wrote about what the ARI did and when he did it.

YL
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On 22/09/2010 8:13 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> In our discussion of the direction to daven, many perform shaking of
> the lulav (must be better term) in the directions
> east, south, west, north, up and down
> or
> south, north, east, up, down, west
> according to this whether it is right or left or front or back first
> depends on where one is.
> i.e. the directions are in terms of geography and not right, left etc.

At least the ARI's directions (as I've seen them) start with an
instruction to face east.  So no matter which way you are davening,
you first turn to the east, and then the directions are correct in
terms of right, left, etc.


--
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 09:47:53PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> HaKafos on Simchas Torah were not introduced until the latter part of
> the 16th century by the ARI is Sefas. From there they first spread to
> various parts of EY and then to Chutz L'Aretz.  However, there was
> opposition to this "new innovation" in many places. One place was in
> Frankfurt am Main.  From what I have posted at
> http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/no_hakafas.pdf  HaKafos were
> introduced in Frankfurt, then abolished, then introduced again, then
> abolished, etc....

See R' Avi Feldblum's post at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol10/v10n034.shtml#15>, RJJBaker's at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol21/v21n002.shtml#01>, and the thread
RYL started in 2006 with a similar he'arah at
<http://www.aishdas.org/
avodah/getindex.cgi?section=W#WHAT%20IS%20THE%20SOURCE%20FOR%20THE%20MINHAG
%20OF%20CHASIDIM%20TO>
or <http://bit.ly/b279m3>, starting from v20n18, which until then was
about Chassidim having haqafos on Shemini Atzeres.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 177
***************************************




--
Shetir'u Batov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             You cannot propel yourself forward
mi...@aishdas.org        by patting yourself on the back.
http://www.aishdas.org                   -Anonymous
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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