Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 176

Tue, 21 Sep 2010

• 1. why slichos are so hard to understand (M Cohen)
• 2. Re: Which way to Jerusalem? (Chanoch (Ken) Bloom)
• 3. prayers on YK and shabbat (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: Shofar blowing (D&E-H Bannett)
• 5. Re: Which way to Jerusalem? (Zev Sero)
• 6. which way to Jerusalem (Eli Turkel)
• 7. HaMelech HaMishpot (Meir Rabi)
• 8. Starting Shacharis early the day after Yom Kippur (Marty Bluke)
• 9. Season's Greetings (Simon Wanderer)
• 10. Re: Geirut for marriage (Micha Berger)
• 11. lulav hadavuk (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 12. Re: HaMelech HaMishpot (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 13. Shemirah during Hakhel (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Chosmeinu (Poppers, Michael)
• 15. Succa under a zeppelin (Saul Stokar)
• 16. Re: Succa under a zeppelin (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Season's Greetings (Micha Berger)
• 18. Which way to Jerusalem? (Dov Kaiser)

Similarly, I always wondered why the nevuahs of Tanach
are so hard to understand.

(ie compare understanding the haftorah readings vs the torah reading each
week)

wrt Tehillim, it is hard to understand maybe due to the claim of 'poetry'

But nevuah of Tanach is Hashem communicating to the Jewish pple thru the
navi!

Why would He use a language that is so hard to understand such that
the rishonim often work so hard (and differ) on what the navi meant or 
was referring to.

Are the these 2 issues (hard to understand language of slichos and tanach)
connected?

gc't,
mordechai cohen

On Wed, 2010-09-15 at 07:51 +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Actually what I have seen a few times (at the Kotel and in shuls in 
> Jerusalem) are minyanim where some people face the front of the shul and few 
> face some other direction (claiming that this is the "more correct" 
> direction). I never knew if this was something of such import that it worth 
> being poresh from the tzibbur.

R' David Yosef (Halacha Berura 94:6) poskins that if the heichal is on
the wrong side of the beit kenesset, and the tzibbur is davening to face
it (so they're all facing the wrong direction, in violation of the
halacha to daven facing Eretz Yisrael/Yerushalyim/Beit Hamikdash/Kodeh
HaKodeshim) then those who want to be correct should not orient their
bodies differently from the tzibbur, rather they should orient their
bodies to the heichal, and orient their faces towards Eretz
Yisrael/Yerushalyim/Beit Hamikdash/Kodeh HaKodeshim.

What is the reason that ashkenazim dont say Avinu Malkenu on YK that is shabbat.
Much of the davening consists of requests. Evident examples are
"Shma Kolenu" and also the "Avinu Malkenu" right after "Modim" which in fact
has many similarities to the AM we say at the end.

Also why do some kehillot  do not say the 13 midot when YK coincides
with shabbat
(it was a discussion in the shul where I davened and they left it out).
We say it both at maariv and Neilah

-- 
Eli Turkel

Re:  Why <<final kolot sounded in the middle of kaddish 
rather than before or after?>>

I suppose I could say that the kolot are always after 
kaddish.  That is because what we call chatzi kaddish is 
actually the entire original kaddish.

After our prayers in shmoneh esrei we add at the end of 
kaddish a request titkabal tz'loton.  Peace is always 
important and before going out from shul into the world we 
think of it even more, we add a prayer for peace in both 
Aramaic and Hebrew.  After learning, we add to kaddish a 
prayer for the teachers and learners.

BTW, in my shul where I do not blow during the silent amidah 
of mussaf (usually called shmoneh esrei), we complete the 
customary 100 kolot by blowing 30 at titkabal and another 
ten after aleinu.


k"t and hag sukkot sameach,

David 

On 18/09/2010 1:44 AM, Chanoch (Ken) Bloom wrote:

> R' David Yosef (Halacha Berura 94:6) poskins that if the heichal is on
> the wrong side of the beit kenesset, and the tzibbur is davening to face
> it (so they're all facing the wrong direction, in violation of the
> halacha to daven facing Eretz Yisrael/Yerushalyim/Beit Hamikdash/Kodeh
> HaKodeshim) then those who want to be correct should not orient their
> bodies differently from the tzibbur, rather they should orient their
> bodies to the heichal, and orient their faces towards Eretz
> Yisrael/Yerushalyim/Beit Hamikdash/Kodeh HaKodeshim.

That's difficult to do if the tzibur is facing completely in the wrong
direction.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

<<Some of Chazal may not have known that the earth is a globe, especially
those in Bavel, where the latest discoveries of Greek scientists may have
taken a few centuries to become known and accepted; but surely all the
rishonim knew it well.>>

I agree that some Chazal knew the earth was a globe while others did not.
However, the same is true for rishonim. While sefardim like R Yehuda Halevi
and Rabmam knew the earth was a globe it is pretty clear that most
ashkenazim did not (eg did Rabbenu Tam with his sunset realize that
it depended on ones location on the globe)

More startling is that some achronim explicitly denied that the earth
was a globe
as that scientific theory goes against explicit gemaras.

As to what direction the amoraim davened the question is not whether they
faced west but rather did they account for the difference between
different communities
along the Euphrates. As RZS notes they certainly did not pray in the
direction that
one traveled which would be north

-- 
Eli Turkel

Can anyone help explain why omitting Melech Ohev Tzadakah or Melech Ohev
Mishpat, is in flavour with the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah?

At least in MoEl HaKadosh being reworked as HaMelech HaKadosh there is
negligible apparent dismissal of the overall meaning.

meir
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100919/4d3f397f/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
Areivim mailing list
Arei...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org

The acharonim (see the Mateh Efraim and Aruch Hashulchan at the end of Siman
624) bring down a minhag to get up early to daven the day after Yom Kippur
so the Satan will not be able to complain.

Somehow this has turned into a minhag to start davening 5 minutes earlier in
parts of Israel. The 6:30 minyan starts at 6:25 the 7:00 minyan starts at
6:55 and even the 8:00 minyan starts at 7:55.

IMHO I don't see how this is mekayem the minhag at all. There is no way that
going 5 minutes early to an 8:00 minyan is called mashkimim. This is just
another instance where the spirit of the minhag is completely ignored for a
doubtful mechanical kiyum.

Does anyone else have this minhag in their neighborhood to start davening 5
minutes earlier today?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100919/26d72b78/attachment-0001.htm>

Anyone have any thoughts / sources on G'mar Tov Vs G'mar Chasima Tova (vis
a vis origin, meaning and correctness)? I would have expected this to be
well-trodden ground on the internet, but a quick google search did not turn
anything up. 

Whilst on the subject, what about the correct greeting for Motzei Yom Kippur? Since last night I have heard (all from people I do not think of as ignorant):
Gut Yom Tov;
Gut Yohr; and
G'mar Tov

Again, any thoughts or sources?

Thanks,

-- SW

If people recall our conversation as-of March, I dimissed the RnCL's
take on Bach's understanding of the Rambam's position on the role of
qabbalas ol mitzvos (QOM / KOM) or lack thereof. Primarily because I
(1) didn't see how it fits Issurei bi'Ah 12, and (2) the Bach rejects
the Rambam's position, as he understands it, anyway.

If reading this post isn't enough to jog your memory, the thread is at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=G#GEIRUT%20FOR%
20MARRIAGE>
(or <http://bit.ly/a0onZi>) but it may help to see the adjacent ones that
also refer to "geirut" or "geirus".

The current issue of Kol Hamevaser ("The Jewish Thought Magazine of
the Yeshiva University Student Body") is about Jewish identity, and as
par of that Jonathan Ziring interviews R' Herschel Schachter on geirus
<http://www.kolhamevaser.com/2010/09/an-interview-with-rabbi-he
rshel-schachter-2/>:
    What is the RCA's policy on necessitating kabbalat ha-mitsvot
    (the acceptance of the commandments) on the part of the potential
    convert? How specific must the beit din be in their clarification of
    these matters? How do you understand the opinion of Rambam (Issurei
    Bi'ah, chapter 14) on this issue?

    The Rambam quotes the Gemara that modi'in lo miktsas mitsvos
    kallos u-miktsas mitsvos chamuros (we inform him of some light
    and some more severe mitsvos).[ii] R. Marc Angel printed an essay
    about 30 years ago in Tradition where he writes that the Rambam's
    opinion is that kabbalas ol mitsvos (accepting the yoke of mitsvos)
    isn't me'akkev.[iii] One of the rebbes in yeshivah showed it to
    R. Soloveitchik and he got furious. He said, "It's ridiculous. Of
    course kabbalas ol mitsvos is me'akkev." R. Moshe Feinstein quoted in
    the name of his father and R. Chayyim Ozer quoted in the name of all
    the classical posekim that when the Rambam says that the kabbalas ol
    mitsvos is not me'akkev, that's talking about the dramatic kabbalas
    ol mitsvos -- when the ger is in the water up to his neck moments
    before he is about to convert. The drama is not me'akkev,but if
    a person is not mekabbel ol mitsvos, of course it's me'akkev. The
    person isn't Jewish.

    [ii] Yevamot 47b.

    [iii] Marc D. Angel, "Another Halakhic Approach to Conversions,"
    Tradition 12:3-4 (Winter 1972): 107-113.

If you translate "dramatic QOM" to meaning QOM as part of the ritual of
the geirus, then my understanding could well underly RCO's shitah. It's
me'aqev as a missing precondition, as I read pereq 12.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

http://www.ladaat.net/article.php?do=viewarticle&;articleid=9066   kosher?


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100919/2d02397e/attachment-0001.htm>

Melech Ohev Tzdaka can mean the Tzdakah and Mishpat that we do.

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 3:30 AM, Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can anyone help explain why omitting Melech Ohev Tzadakah or Melech Ohev
> Mishpat, is in flavour with the Aseres Yemei Teshuvah?
>
> At least in MoEl HaKadosh being reworked as HaMelech HaKadosh there is
> negligible apparent dismissal of the overall meaning.
>
> meir
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Areivim mailing list
> Arei...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/areivim-aishdas.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>


-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100919/27f31694/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 05:52:05AM -0400, R Prof. Y Levine wrote to Areivim:
> As far as my attending the Bais HaMikdash, first of all, I assume that 
> things will be kept orderly. Secondly, given that I am a Levi, I assume 
> that I will be stationed at one of the gates, and not inside with the 
> crowd. >:-}

So, this made me wonder... Everyone had to be there for Haqhel, no?

But there is still a chiyuv of shemirah, meaning that there were shomerim who
weren't in the Ezras Nashim while sefer Devarim was being read.

So, was it that they could hear from their posts, or was is that shemirah was
suspended during Haqhel? Or was shemirah docheh? Or...???

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

In Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 174, RLK responded to RAE:
>> If the words of the piyyut "Berosh hashono yikoseivu, uveyom tzom
>> kippur yeichoseimu" are correct, (mirrored by the the way we greet
>> people after Rosh Hashono - Gemar Chasimo Tovoh) why do we wait
>> until Neiloh to say "Chosmeinu" in Ovinu Malkeinu? Should we not
>> start saying it after Rosh Hashono? <<
> My personal answer:
> It terms of greeting other people, you assume they were all written for
chayim on RH and just need a gmar chatima tova to seal the deal. <
Forgive me if I make no sense, but how does wishing someone a "g'mar
chasimah tovah" demonstrate that you consider him a tzaddiq who was already
nechtam l'chayyim on RhSh?  (This is why I prefer to leave any
chasimah-related term out of personal bein-keseh-l'Asor greetings, a
fortiori bein YhK l'Hosha'na Rabba.)  Thanks. 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

There was an interesting exchange between Rav Moshe Permutter (of Lodz) and
Rav Sholom Mordechai Schwadron (of Berezhany) concerning a succa under a
zeppelin (blimp). Rav Perlmutter raises both the case of a zeppelin hovering
over an already constructed succa (where he raises the issue of "chavut
rami" (succa 22a)), as well as the case of a succa constructed under a
hovering zeppelin (where he raises the possibility that the succa remains
invalid even after the zeppelin moves away).  The exchange, written in 5669
(1909) can be found in resp. no. 30 of Avnei Shoham by Rav Perlmutter, which
can be found at HebrewBooks at the link: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/189. The
bottom line by Rav Schwadron is that there is no cause for concern,
primarily because the zeppelin is merely hovering.  However, if the blimp
was tethered, like the ones used by the Israeli army for collecting
intelligence, it seems there might be a problem.

Saul Stokar
Raanana, Israel
*
*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100921/3c2a30ad/attachment-0001.htm>

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:49:30AM +0200, Saul Stokar wrote:
:                   Rav Perlmutter raises both the case of a zeppelin hovering
: over an already constructed succa (where he raises the issue of "chavut
: rami" (succa 22a)), as well as the case of a succa constructed under a
: hovering zeppelin (where he raises the possibility that the succa remains
: invalid even after the zeppelin moves away)...

"Possibility"? I would think it's muchrach, once you say that a sukkah
under a zepplin is pasul. Taaseh velo min haasui.

What's his piqpuq?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 11:49:05AM +0100, Simon Wanderer wrote:
: Anyone have any thoughts / sources on G'mar Tov Vs G'mar Chasima Tova
: (vis a vis origin, meaning and correctness)? I would have expected this
: to be well-trodden ground on the internet, but a quick google search
: did not turn anything up.

    Berosh haShanah yikaseivun,
    uveYom Tzom Kippur yeichaseimun

How that fits with other quotes about different people having chasimah
at different times is beyond me. Perhaps this is evidence of a simple
machloqes, a shitah in which no one's judgment is complete on RH.

How Yamim Noraim judgment and perpetual judgment intertwine is also
beyond me. So the whole topic is one I find opaque.

But in any case, there is clearly a shitah which says that during the
days from RH to YK, we are awaiting chasimah.

As for "Gemar Tov", I think it's just Israeli shorthand, exchanging 3
syllables (which most slur into two by making that first sheva nach)
in place of 7 (or six, as again most do say just "gmar").

It could also be an attempt to translate the Aramaic "pisqa tava".

I think "Gemar Tov" is horrible, personally. (Hyperliteralism is an
occupational hazard for programmers, though.) The problem is that unlike
"pisqa", "gemar" lacks the connotations of "pesaq" -- which is exactly
the sense in which the possible original was meant.

Particularly if you believe the satan could be listaning, and decide
to take the person's wish that the other should have a "good ending"
literally. I mean, it beats a slow and painful death, but still, not
what I would want wished for someone's coming year.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

For those interested in this topic, see the excellent articles at the Har Etzion Virtual Bet Hamidrash:
By R. Yaakov Medan: http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/halak57/11east.doc. 
By R. David Brofsky: http://vbm-torah.org/archive/tefila/67-26tefila.htm.  
 
They both note that the AhS held that one should not face Yerusalayim if it
means turning away from the Aron Kodesh.  Indeed, R. Amital zt?l paskened
for the bnei Yeshiva that, even though Yerushalayim is to the north-east of
Gush, they should face due north in the Bet Hamidrash (which faces north)
to avoid turning away, even slightly, from the Aron Kodesh.  
 
R. Brofsky article also deals with the different opinions as to how particular one needs to be in facing Yerushalayim.
 
Kol tuv
Dov Kaiser                                        
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20100921/2b13f1e8/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 176
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."