Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 170

Tue, 31 Aug 2010

• 1. Vaad 4 aratzot, mehitzot, and kabbalat shabbat (David Riceman)
• 2. parshat bikkurim (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. Re: Saying Tehillim for a sick person (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. Some Thoughts for the End of Elul (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Source of Quote (Gershon Dubin)
• 6. Re: Source of Quote (Akiva Blum)
• 7. mekach taut (Eli Turkel)
• 8. single mother (Eli Turkel)
• 9. free will (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: free will (Micha Berger)
• 11. Ben Ish Mitzri (Micha Berger)
• 12. dikduk error (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 13. Exclusion of Shlomis bas Divri's son (Dov Kaiser)
• 14. Re: Exclusion of Shlomis bas Divri's son (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Re: Exclusion of Shlomis bas Divri's son (Micha Berger)

I've been trying to understand a halachic category for the recent furor over kabbalat shabbat.  I have a working hypothesis, but I'm not happy with it.

As I understand it American Jewry has never had a unified minhag or a
governing body.  Even the attempt to establish a chief rabbi of NYC failed
miserably.  "orthodox" has always had multiple meanings, but one of those
has always included anyone who observed Halacha.

That's why the rabbis of the previous generation expressed their opposition
to lack of mehitzot in halachic terms, whereas la'aniyut da'ati mehitza is
best understood as a widespread custom.  Now, however, we see that the
rabbis of our generation are trying to enforce uniform customs in America.

I can think of two precedents for this, but neither fits particularly well.
 Professor Ta Shma argues (I'm stranded here without references) that, even
though there were varying local customs in ashkenaz, there were also some
uniformly accepted customs.  It's not clear to me, however, how and whether
these were enforced.  The second is Vaad 4 Aratzot; as I remarked once
before on this list, I don't know of any customs it enacted.

So here are some questions: is this best understood as an attempt to
overturn the one universal custom of American Jewry, by establishing
something resembling a kehillah structure with the authority to veto
customs? What will be the status of Shuls which are shomer mitzvoth but
outside of this authority? Will it be structured like a classical kehillah,
where all Jews have a vote and conclusions require consensus, or (as seems
to be happening), more like clerical rule?

As a more practical question, what, if anything, should those of us who agree with the practical conclusion but have grave misgivings about the process, do?

David Riceman

Sent from my iPad

http://www.ravkooktorah.org/KI-TAVO-68.htm  in re  rET's  point, r kook 
distinguishes the prophetic tone--the fresh fruit,  vs the dried fruit-- 
tora, which  preserved the jews in galut.    as the halutzim returned to 
the land , they dropped the  dried fruits,  but there were no fresh fruits 
of prophecy [other than their own non-tora infused perspective] to replace 
them.....


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R' SBA asked:

> That's been puzzling me too. Why not suffice with Refoeinu -adding
> the Yehi Ratzon - a tefilah compiled by the AKHg -  which surely
> has all the ingredients/segulos required for a refuah? And having
> said that, what's the point of adding 'man-made' Tehillim?
>
> I have the same question regarding the Vidui said (at least in
> nussach Sfard) after ShE. Isn't the AKHg's "Selach lanu" enough?

Enough?????

How can one ever reach that point?

This isn't something one does to be yotzay. Ideally, one would never stop
these things until he is confident that he'll be answered with a "yes".
B'dieved, of course we pause or even stop when we tire out or when some
other urgency arises. But if the thought that "I've said my piece, and now
I'll move on" ever enters my mind,... :-(

Regarding Viduy, this could also be asked about Tachanun in general. In
fact, it can be asked even before Tachanun, about the Tachanunim ("Elokai
N'tzor") immediately after Shemoneh Esreh. We've just finished the AKhG's
Tefilah, what could we possibly add to it? The obvious answer (obvious to
me, at least) is that we must never be satisfied with the standard text,
even one as perfect and lofty as the AKhG's Tefilah. One must always add a
bit more, if for no other reason than to show that he is not rushing out.

I fully support any push to re-awaken us to have more kavana for the
original tefilos. One example is Rabbi Arie Folger's suggestion to say
Lamnatzeach (before Uva L'tzion) "slowly, passuq befassuq, instead of
adding another psalm." And if R'SBA's suggestion was for the Shliach Tzibur to add the Yehi Ratzon to Chazaras Hashatz, I think that's a great idea too.

But I see a big difference between saying, "Hey, let's start with having
proper kavana for the basic tefilos, and *then* we can add more", as
opposed to "The original texts should be enough."

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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In his essay Compromise and the Call of the Elul Shofar (Collected 
Writings II) RSRH writes

The year is drawing to a close and the sounds of the shofar
summon us to serious reflection. What has this year brought us, and
what have we become during that span since the last shofar tones
sounded following the Ne'ilah service, sending us on our way to a
vigorous life, seeking God and elevating ourselves toward Him?
where, and how, will the sounds of the shofar find us this year?
Have the highlights of the past year which were provided for us on
our journey through the cycle of the year accomplished their purpose?
There was Sukkoth with its flowers and fruits of "trust" and "rejoicing"
that decorated our homes and blessed our lives, There was
Chanukah with its burst of light from the spirit and courage of the
Maccabees followed by the message of the miracle of Purim. We
experienced Pesach with its matzoth. its bitter herbs, its brimming
cups of wine, all symbols of Israel's enslavement and Egypt's
arrogance, the fall of Egypt and our "liberation, rescue, deliverance
and selection"  There was Shevuoth
which led us to the flaming mountain, there to bring us the fiery Law
for our lives- Aish Dos

All those significant days were to make us more spiritual and more
courageous. They were to render us more thankful to God and to our
destiny, more conscious of our calling and more willing to make sacrifices
for it. The days of remembrance which we mark by fasts and
mourning were to recall the consequence of our own errors, and to
teach us that all the so-called alliances with" Assyria" and "Rome"
were unable to protect Israel once it had broken its covenant with
God. The faithful calls of the Sabbath and the New Moons that never
failed us, week after week, month after month,. were to bring us the
renewed message of God. Did the spirit of the Sabbath and the atonement
of the New Moon guide us through all the bright and dark days
of the year?

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I recall a Gemara saying something to the effect that one should drink
water when eating fish, sort of  "like with like" (The Gemara's take,
IIRC, not mine.  Anyone know where this is?

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
____________________________________________________________
1 Tip for Losing Weight
Cut down 2 lbs per week by using this 1 weird old tip
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c7aba86196f7eff4am06vuc

> [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Gershon Dubin
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 10:52 PM
> 
> I recall a Gemara saying something to the effect that one should drink
> water when eating fish, sort of  "like with like" (The Gemara's take,
> IIRC, not mine.  Anyone know where this is?
> 

Moed Katan 11a

Akiva

There have been discussions on areivim on listing  of hasgachot and also
the necessity of a single mother to inform future shidduchim of the child.

Both these issues involve mekach taut. Let me clear these are halachic issues
that need the decision of a posek, which I am not. I have seen relatively
little written on the issue and would be happy to be given more material.
Of course CC has written about this from the LH aspect but there are
more general questions.
We all know that a wedding ring contains no precious stones for fear
that the bride overvalues the ring and is consenting to the marriage
for this very expensive ring (I have never quite understood this but the
principle is clear)

The OU tidbits has been running a series of articles from the Puah institute on
the need to disclose of medical conditions. I have also heard several shiurim
of Rav Zilberstein on the same topic. R. Zilberstein stressed that if a couple
gets married under false pretenses then not only are they living in sin but
all the berachot of the rabbi at the marriage are levatala !
In spite of these there is no rush to be machmir. First unnecessary disclosure
may disturb future shalom bayit. i.e. even f the couple go ahead with
the marriage
after disclosure one side keeps the problems against the other and it tends to
surface during arguments. Second it might prevent a person from ever finding
a shidduch even though there is no necessity of disclosure.

My understanding is that disclosure in a shidduch is required for matters that
if discovered years after a happy marriage would lead to a divorce. However,
if the spouse would say now that we are happily married I am mochel that means
there was never a mekach taut. Every marriage takes place on the assumption
that all sides have their problems and it is only a question of degree.
However, if after years of marriage a husband/wife would still feel cheated
then the marriage is null and void.
One example is when one of the partners carries a serious genetic disease.

OTOH R. Zilberstein discusses a case where the woman already knows she
has disease that is likely to kill her in her 40s or 50s. He paskens that
she is not required to tell because a man would prefer a happy marriage
of 20-30 years even knowing in wouldn't last longer than that. The
Puah institute
comes to a similar conclusion. I again stress that this is a complicated
issue and the series of articles by the Puah institute discusses various
medical and mental problems (the series is still ongoing in each shabbat
issue of the Torah tidbits)

My personal opinion (again without poskim to back me up) is that a child
born out of wedlock is a perfectly good Jew and I dont see any reason
to have to disclose that fact. RMF and the Steipler discuss the case of a
child of a baal teshuva where the parents did not keep taharat hamishpacha
when the child was born and the gemara says such a child is "tainted".
Both gedolim allow such a marriage lechatchila for their various reasons.
I dont believe they discuss whether the child would need to disclose
that his parents were not religious when he was born.

As far as kashrut codes most kashrut agencies make it clear they rely
on other kashrut agencies. A commercial product can consist of hundreds
if not thousands of ingredients between food colorings, stale inhibitors etc.
While each ingedient needs to be checked out the OU (for example) does
not insist that everything have an OU kashrut but will allow a food coloring
that a hasgacha from X whom they trust. As such I see know problem if
a bakery with an OU hasgacha turns out to actually have been supervised
by hasgacaha X since in any case they allow their ingredients.

My understanding is that the edah hacharedit insists that all ingredients
have their hasgacha and do not allow any ingredients that have a
Belz (for example) hasgacha. As such IMHO it would be more problematic
whether there is a mekach taut when a bakery under the edah sells goods
that came from another reliable baker with a different hasgacha.
Again, this is a strict halachic issue and would be glad to change my
opinion if someone brings some posek.

As pointed above we are necessarily more machmir in marriage then in commercial
affairs since marriage has many considerations both to chumra and kula.

To remind people I recently brought a shiur of R. Zilberstein about pikuach
nefesh where the main message was that it is easier to violate shabbat or
other mitzvot between man and G-d to possibly save a life even with small
probability than to cause someone a monetary loss to save a life which could
be dome only with a greater possibility of success.
The lesson is that monetary manners can sometimes be more chumra than
shabbat


-- 
Eli Turkel

I forgot to mention in my previous post that of course
that for a single mother of course it depends what we know about the father.
The gemara already discusses the reliance on the testimony of the mother
as to whom is the father.
My previous post assumed that the father was a kosher Jew.
If the mother used a sperm bank then everything is more complicated
and indeed serious rabbinical psak is needed


-- 
Eli Turkel

<<So, either QM is flawed, or bechirah chafshi has been proven.>>

Not really. Before one proves anything about free will one has to define it
mathematically. The article uses a definition based on Shannon's
theory of information. Without resorting to detailed math, id a page
is filled with "a"s the page has zero information since we know in
advance its content. Information is maximal when every letter in the
alphabet occurs equal frequency (probability).

Hence, accepting the proof of the paper all it shows is that the
events can be determined over large distances instantaneously only
if all possible occurrences have equal probability.

Any connection of this to bechirah chofshit which is a philosophical
and not mathematical entity is doubful. Besides extensions from
QM events to human beings is another quantum leap.
At best the theorem could prove that given a choice then all possibilities
are equally possible or equivalently are completely random
Something we dont believe for humans  (cf nekudat habechirah)

In addition all the article shows is that if not all measurements are
random and uncorrelated then everything can be explained without
action at a distance
which in fact would make Einstein very happy.

Several physicists have tried to years to base free will on quantum mechanics.
The problem with all such proofs is that even if they are accepted they only
destroy determinism with randomization - not with free will. Free will implies
an active choice not just that our actions are random rather than determined
a priori


-- 
Eli Turkel

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 01:40:08PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> So, either QM is flawed, or bechirah chafshi has been proven.
: 
: Not really. Before one proves anything about free will one has to define it
: mathematically. The article uses a definition based on Shannon's
: theory of information....
: Hence, accepting the proof of the paper all it shows is that the
: events can be determined over large distances instantaneously only
: if all possible occurrences have equal probability.

I disagree with your opening thought. What the paper actually does
is prove the existence of one feature that anyone would include in a
definition of free will, and that is "freedom".

: Any connection of this to bechirah chofshit which is a philosophical
: and not mathematical entity is doubful. Besides extensions from
: QM events to human beings is another quantum leap.

This last sentence is my second point of contension. Because the
paper isn't about the probability of the quantum event, it's about the
probability of the experimentor measuring one feature rather than its
quantum complement.

They proved that such decisions of what to measure must be equally
probable, regardless of the choice of the other experimentor or any other
outside influence. And if we have the ability to make such non-compelled
decisions WRT measurements of quantum states, then we have shown the
ability in principle exists.

So while I concede that I was overexuberant to say that bechirah chafshi
was proven, the freedom *part* of free will has been.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

Bringing part of an Areivim discussion here...

The question of nature vs nurture has a clear answer of "both", with the
question being in the details of how the two combine. Clearly neither
determines the personality to the exclusion of the other.

(Tangent: Nature vs nurture plays down the role bechirah plays in shaping
our own development. In
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/01/free-will-and-environment.shtml> I
suggested that even within nature vs nurture, on the nurture side,
bechirah enters in what parts of my environment I choose to focus on.)

And so, the question of marrying a product of IVF-donor does involve
matters that do not enter that of marrying a BT. As does marrying someone
whose father was a nachri.

For that matter, even choosing to marry a ger.

But once reaching that point, I feel compelled to add that while it does
"involve matters" of the genetic component of personality, the question
is in practice moot.

After all, we aren't talking about making a shidduch with an unknown
entity (I hope). The genetics, whatever they were, produced the person
who chose to become a BT or geir, the person this child wants to marry.
Lekhat-chilah one may worry what will the offspring be like. But at
this point?

I therefore see the concern lekhat-chilah, WRT choosing to be a mother
by IVF-donor, but not post-facto, when it comes to shidduchim.

How this relates to the Ben Ish Mitzri and the medrash which identifies
him with the meqalel depends on how you see his etiology: Would he have
become the meqalel had his mother's sheivet not shunned him? Or was it
the shunning itself which made him rebellious enough to speak up?

And if you think the medrash about the mother being Mrs Dasan and a rape
victim is part of the same lesson, then how much of his problems stem
from that horrible home life?

(In that Medrash in Shemos Rabba, it's for that violation of the 7
mitzvos benei Noach that Moshe kills the Mitzri.)

Nature or Nurture?

But again, you meet a prospective chasan; regardless of the genetics,
you should know enough about the finished product not to need to introduce
fears based on what potentialities the genes might have contained.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
mi...@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rav Yisrael Salanter

from rHM's blog

Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky zt?l, in a not terribly successful attempt to get us 
to be serious about our Hebrew language classes in Mesifta Torah Vodaath, 
told us that he once discovered a major halachic error in a well known 
acharon that was based on a simple dikduk mistake. Regrettably, we were 
not suitably impressed. 


---  does anyone know what  this refers to?

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R. Micha Berger wrote on Areivim:
 
<<This line of thought is dangerous altogether. We excluded a child
back in the midbar based on who his father was and look how well that
turned out.>>
 
Do any meforshim suggest that the rejection of Shlomis bas Divri's son was
improper? I have always been personally uncomfortable with the way he was
treated, but understood that his rejection was halachically justified.
Wasn't it?
 
Kol tuv
Dov Kaiser
                                          
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Do any meforshim suggest that the rejection of Shlomis bas Divri's son was
improper? I have always been personally uncomfortable with the way he was
treated, but understood that his rejection was halachically justified.
Wasn't it?

Kol tuv
Dov Kaiser
 ========================
On what basis were you taught it was justified?
KT
Joel Rich
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On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 09:05:49AM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: [R Dov Kaiser:]
:> Do any meforshim suggest that the rejection of Shlomis bas Divri's
:> son was improper? I have always been personally uncomfortable with the
:> way he was treated, but understood that his rejection was halachically
:> justified. Wasn't it?

: On what basis were you taught it was justified?

Well, the medrash has it that he was excluded by sheivet Dan and told to
live among the eirev rav, because sheivet is patrilineal. No nachalah,
therefore he doesn't travel under their degel. MRAH and his beis din side
with the Danites -- and that's what angers the ben ish Mitzri enough to
curse G-d. Given the BD approval, it must have been correct.

But in the original post (on Areivim) I wasn't talking about the rejection
in the immediate cause of his downfall. I was talking about the rest of
his life until then.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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