Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 167

Tue, 24 Aug 2010

• 1. Re: SA and LH (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: re,tehillim for the sick (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: One African-American Family's Journey to Judaism (Gershon Dubin)
• 4. Re: re,tehillim for the sick (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Is it permitted to say Tehilim for a sick person? (Harry Maryles)
• 6. tfila l'mdina (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 7. RSRH on Blessings (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Is it permitted to say Tehilim for a sick person? (cgsteinmetz@juno.com)
• 9. Re: One African-American Family's Journey to Judaism (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: new editions (Micha Berger)

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 09:48:29AM -0400, M Cohen wrote:
: does anyone have a good answer why SA doesn't mention hilchos LH?

You're right. It's very strange.

The SA only mentions the idiom LH once, CM 11:1, to tell you that a
shaliach beis din is not chayav for LH when he repoirts that someone
refuses to come in response to a zimun BD.

The Rama also only uses the phrase once, CM 8:5, similarly WRT a shaliach
BD reporting that he was ridiculed in the line of duty -- which is
contempt of court, and BD has reshus to give the person makas mardus.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 06:38:15AM -0700, martin brody wrote:
: See Shavuos 15B and SA YD #179.

Theurgy and tefillah are different things, which is why the word used
in your sources is lechishah. The se'if of the SA is usually titled
"Shelo lekhasheif le'onein ulnacheish". This issur is about using words
for protection; ie trying to obtain power from the words themselves.

The question is how this gemara coexists with those that refer to the
use of qemei'os.

If someone thinks that tefillah is a magical incantation, I supposed
that person wouldn't be allowed to recite prayers for the sick. Except
even then, it's permitted for piquach nefesh -- SA YD 179:6-8.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

<<When I was faced with such a situation, (a) I prepared everything
before Yom Tov, and (b) I asked one of the non Jewish guest to come
and put the pots on the fire and do anything else we couldn't do for
them. It was a great educational moment is distinguishing before from
after conversion.>>
Hope you didn't have any Sefardim there who you gave bishul akum according to the Beis Yosef.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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If someone thinks that tefillah is a magical incantation, I supposed that person wouldn't be allowed to recite prayers for the sick.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
What if they think that tefillah is not a magical incantation but
kabbalistic in nature and they don't have to understand how it works (e.g.
a caveman is transported into our world, he knows nothing about electricity
but quickly learns that pushing a button on the wall makes the room light)
KT
Joel Rich
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--- On Sun, 8/22/10, cgsteinm...@juno.com <cgsteinm...@juno.com> wrote:




See Merkeves Hamishna on the Rambam, and Shu"t Tzitz Eliezer v 17 Siman 30.
CGS
?
On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:52:26 -0400 "Prof. Levine" <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> writes:

Rambam in Hilchos Avoda Zara 11:12 who after forbidding to say pessukim from the Torah for physical relief quite vehemently...
--------------------------------------------------------------
?
For those of us who do not have a Shu"t Tzitz Eliezer -?can you tell us what he says?
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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http://revach.net/halacha/tshuvos/Bai
s-Ovi-Tefila-For-The-Israeli-Government-in-Shul-During-Davening/2475 
ok to say 


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The following is RSRH's commentary on Devarim 28:2

2 All these blessings will come upon you and 
overtake you, if you will hearken to the voice of God, your God.

The blessings of thriving and prosperity come 
upon you by themselves, they come upon you without your having
sought them. They overtake you; you do not overtake them. They are not
the goal of your actions; they are not your aim. Precisely because you do
not seek them but want only to do God?s Will on earth, and your aim is
only to fulfill your duty to God and to realize His Will in the world ?
precisely for this reason God?s blessings seek you out; they come upon
you to assist you in your endeavors, whose whole essence is none other
than the realization of God?s purposes on earth.
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See here:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14516&;st=&pgnum=69

Also attached.
CGS

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Harry Maryles
<hmary...@yahoo.com> writes:
-
For those of us who do not have a Shu"t Tzitz Eliezer - can you tell us
what he says?

HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/
____________________________________________________________
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On 24/08/2010 12:57 PM, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> <<When I was faced with such a situation, (a) I prepared everything
> before Yom Tov, and (b) I asked one of the non Jewish guest to come
> and put the pots on the fire and do anything else we couldn't do for
> them. It was a great educational moment is distinguishing before from
> after conversion.>>
>
> Hope you didn't have any Sefardim there who you gave bishul akum
> according to the Beis Yosef.

The BY holds no such thing.  All that's required is that a Jew
participate in the food's preparation, even in the smallest way; in
this case Jews did much more than that, having done all the cooking
*except* putting it on the fire.   The only difference between the BY
and the Ramo is whether lighting a fire on which someone will
eventually cook food counts as participation in the cooking of that
food.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 02:58:13PM +0200, Arie Folger wrote:
: Sorry, but - bim'hilat kevot Torato - the above sounds like pure
: nonsense. Writing (even printing) the SA was not a magical moment that
: turned all authors into A'haronim. In fact, if you'd want to go by
: acceptance of the SA as *the* codex, then you'd want to know when it
: was accepted, which took at least a few years.

I would argue that the acceptance of the SA defines the SA as the end of
the era. IOW, the SA ends the period of rishonim in Sepharad, but that
definition of "Sepharadi rishon" didn't exist for a generation or two.

By accepting the SA as "*the* codex" (at least in the Seph universe),
we're saying that the SA is our baseline for assessing all arguments
since its composition. That anyone post SA who wishes to disagree with
it would feel a requirement to justify the machloqes by bringing sources.

Which is exactly the difference in how acharonim relate to rishonim in
comparison to other acharonim.

(Also, why rishonim don't defer to geonim but rather freely differ with
them. No close-of-geonim codex.)

I think the deference acharonim give rishonim is actually caused by their
power to give justification for disagreeing with "*the* codex", and thus
yes -- the authorship of the book defines the end of the era. (Again,
in the Seph universe, where the claim of "*the* codex" without needing
to add the Rama and perhaps even the earlier nosei keilim is more clear.)

: But all that is unneeded. There is no strict demarcation line, just
: like there is no strict line between Tannaim and Amoraim, with Rav
: tanna upalig, R' 'Hiyya and R' Oshaya, etc...

It is true, though, that my line of reasoning would make the overlapping
generation a gray area.

Still, I recall someone on Avodah arguing the SA as a hard date. If you
recall, the post you're replying to was a summary of positions already
discussed *and sourced* here. Not my own thoughts.

: So, I agree that there are different ways to attempt to figure out
: what the Beis Yossef *really* thought (and I am quite mystified that
: you left out his magnum opus from the sources of possible definite
: opinion. I would consider that the most weighty source)...

Because I do not recall anyone in the previous discussion who considered
the BY definitive. It's earlier than the SA, and far more theoretical
than a presentation of halakhah ulemaaseh.

It's a great work; but we're talking pesaq, not talmud Torah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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