Volume 27: Number 166
Tue, 24 Aug 2010
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 05:38:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] One African-American Family's Journey to Judaism
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:34:20PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: Anyone who follows the link RYL provided will see that it says you can't
: /cook/ for goyim on yom tov, it doesn't say you can't invite them to your
: table.
The issur deOraisa is cooking when it's not for the Yom Tov, and therefore
would include cooking for anyone who isn't mechayev in that YT. In order
to prevent someone from doing so knowing there would be guests at the
table "shema yarbeh bishvilo", there is a gezeira against inviting a
non-Jew to one's Yom Tov meal.
See SA OC 512:1. (Mar'eh maqom gotten from RGStudent's post of
13-Apr-2005.)
The Taz (512:6) writes that under sufficient motivation, one is
permitted to invite a non-Jew to a Yom Tov meal. (Mar'eh maqom from
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol15/v15n002.shtml#04>.) However,
that "sufficient motivation" might be situations where e.g. the poreitz
invited himself, or other significant mishum eivah.
The deOraisa is avoided by simply not making any special dishes, or
extra pots/pans of the same dish. Putting more food in the same pot
isn't assur -- although one still has to then deal with the gezeira.
REMT writes in the post write after RGS's
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol14/v14n115.shtml#10>:
>> May a nonJew attend a seder? If not why not?
> Only on a Friday night. It is prohibited to invite a non-Jew to
> any Yom Tov meal on a day when cooking is permitted, shema yarbeh
> bishvilo. (OC 512:1)
I agree that lemaaseh, there are heteirim found for inviting all of an
intermarried family, or inviting prospective gerim. I don't know what
they are, though.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 05:43:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] what was he thinking?
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 07:17:40PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> I attended a wedding this afternoon, and I, along with a local rabbi,
> was an eid for the tenaim. I wanted him to sign first because he's a
> synagogue rabbi, and (I kid you not) he wanted me to sign first because
> my beard is whiter than his. Finally he asked me if I'm a talmid hacham
> [sic], I said no (truthfully), and he signed first.
I think he was trying to invoke vehadarta penei zaqein and avoid having
to assess which one of you was the greater talmid chakham. You stymied
him on that, so he was thrown and didn't do the smoothest thing next.
Or perhaps, he figured that if you were a talmid chakham and lied about
it, you gave implicitly gave him reshus to sign first.
I didn't know signing first was a kibud, though.
BTW, side-note about talmid chakham... Seems to me the idiom expresses
the truism that we value the ameilus beTorah more than the resulting
knowledge. Otherwise, we would speak of chakhamim, not *talmidei*
chakhamim.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507 Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 05:50:59 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Is it permitted to say Tehilim for a sick
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:34:12PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Prof. Levine wrote:
>> I think that anyone reading the subject line would answer in the
>> affirmative. Yet the post at http://tinyurl.com/26yqak5 says
...
>> He also says that one is not allowed to make a meshebeirach for a sick
>> person!
> The fact that he reaches such a bizarre conclusion, which blatantly
> contradicts Tanach and the Gemara, proves that his premises are wrong.
(I am agreeing. Since it is me, writing in reply to RZS, that might not
be your default assumption. <grin>)
Chumash: Keil na, refah na lah.
There is a difference between davening, and trying to invoke G-d
theurgically, using formula in an attempt to "force" Him into healing
someone. The Rambam was vehemently against magical thinking, but he
didn't take "Refa'einu" out of Shemoneh Esrei.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 05:38:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Inviting nochrim on yomtov
On 23/08/2010 10:34 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>my understanding is that you are not allowed to cook for them on
> yom tov but if you cooked before yom tov, you can put the food on the
> table for everyone including the non-Jewish guests. The second seder
> is more of a problem because you have to warm up the food on yom tov.
> The first seder is less of a problem because you put the food on the
> heat before yom tov started.
> Anyone who follows the link RYL provided will see that it says you
> can't /cook/ for goyim on yom tov, it doesn't say you can't invite
> them to your table.
I see how you got that impression, however it's inaccurate. Since it's
forbidden to cook for a goy on yomtov, it is therefore also forbidden
to invite him, as a gezera lest you cook extra for him. Like any gezera,
you can't get out of it just by saying that the thing Chazal worried
about won't happen.
However, if a goy shows up uninvited, I know of no requirement to
evict him, and no reason not to allow him to join the meal.
> I would also like to ask what you would do with a non-Jew who is both
> A. planning to undergo an Orthodox gerus and is in the process of
> learning and also B. currently married to a Jew who is on the way to
> becoming a BT.
It seems to me that he can be informed of the halacha, and that this
is the reason he has not received and will not be receiving any formal
invitation, and therefore that he shouldn't sit back and wait for one
but should take matters into his own hands and show up at a home where
he knows he will be welcome. (Anyone far enough in the process that
he "needs" a yomtov meal surely has at least one family where he is
familiar enough to be sure of a welcome.)
--
Zev Sero The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name eventually run out of other people?s money
- Margaret Thatcher
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Message: 5
From: "Prof. Levine" <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 05:50:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] One African-American Family's Journey to Judaism
At 10:34 PM 8/23/2010, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>I would also like to ask what you would do with a non-Jew who is
>both A. planning to undergo an Orthodox gerus and is in the process
>of learning and also B. currently married to a Jew who is on the way
>to becoming a BT.
I fail to understand why one has to invite such a couple for Yom Tov.
Shabbos comes every week and no says that one may not invite gentiles
for Shabbos.
I again repeat what I posted on Areivim about Pesach. The seder is,
IMO, for one's children and grandchildren. Our experience has been
that one cannot give them the proper attention if one has too many
guests and/or if one has to devote time explaining things to these
guests rather than explaining things to the children and
grandchildren and involving them. After all, the mitzvah on Seder
night is V'higadeta l'vincha and not to your guests.
YL
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Message: 6
From: "Prof. Levine" <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:06:15 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Lechem u Basar
At 05:16 AM 8/24/2010, Zev Sero wrote:
>Prof. Levine wrote:
> > At 10:59 AM 8/20/2010, R. Micha wrote:
>
> >> The quote about lechem ubasar is significant, and can't be summarily
> >> dismissed.
> >
> > Is it possible that "filling one's belly with bread and meat" means that
> > one has to study secular subjects as well as Torah?
>
>No, that's the exact opposite of what it means. The Rambam's language
>is very clear.
>
>
> > After all, R.
> > Yhonason Eybeschutz wrote in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi
> > in Torah and Science, pages 24-25):
> > For all the sciences are "condiments" and are necessary for our Torah,
>
>Condiments. Exactly. *Not* food.
Yes, but virtually all cooked food is tasteless without condiments,
particularly meat. When I cook I use spices (condiments). Hence,
based on the statement about filling one's belly with bread and meat,
it would seem that when learning Torah one should include the study
of the secular studies that R. Yonason Eybeshutz says are related to
them and any others that give one a better understanding of the Torah
one is learning. Please see
<http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/relevance_se
cular_studies_jewish_education.pdf>The
Relevance of Secular Studies to Jewish Education (Collected Writings VII)
for more on this.
YL
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:59:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] One African-American Family's Journey to Judaism
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 05:50:15AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> I again repeat what I posted on Areivim about Pesach. The seder is, IMO,
> for one's children and grandchildren. Our experience has been that one
> cannot give them the proper attention if one has too many guests and/or
> if one has to devote time explaining things to these guests rather than
> explaining things to the children and grandchildren and involving them.
> After all, the mitzvah on Seder night is V'higadeta l'vincha and not to
> your guests.
And what about your duty to those whose fathers r"l don't believe in
yetzi'as Mitzrayim?
I don't think that negates what you wrote. I think that a non-O Jew
experiencing a seder where parent and child interact in a higadeta
levinkha can be very educational. Both about yetzi'as Mitzrayim, and
in inclucating (if not explaining) the point of why zeikher leytzi'as
Mitzrayim is such a recurring theme in Yahadus.
My balebatishe solution is to simply invite the guests, and make the
seder about the kids anyway. The guests are coming for the experience,
not classes.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone
mi...@aishdas.org or something in your life actually attracts more
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Message: 8
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:26:25 EDT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] One African-American Family's Journey to Judaism
In a message dated 8/24/2010, Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu writes:
>> I again repeat what I posted on Areivim about Pesach. The seder is,
IMO, for one's children and grandchildren. Our experience has been that one
cannot give them the proper attention if one has too many guests and/or if
one has to devote time explaining things to these guests rather than
explaining things to the children and grandchildren and involving them. After all,
the mitzvah on Seder night is V'higadeta l'vincha and not to your guests.<<
YL
>>>>>
The question of whether to have guests at your seder is separate from the
one about inviting non-Jews for yom tov meals. That's a policy question
with no halachic implications. "Vehigadta levincha" in no way implies that
when you speak to your children, guests may not be present.
As for inviting non-Jews (who are preparing for gerus) for Shabbos but not
for yom tov, well, sometimes they need to learn about yom tov, too, and
book learning is not always sufficient. I guess on a case by case basis, ask
your own rav what to do. If you are not comfortable with goyim (or
indeed, with any guests) at your seder, that's an individual decision. In chu'l
many people I know -- including myself -- square the difference by having
one seder be family-only and the other seder open to guests.
--Toby Katz
==========
--------------------
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Message: 9
From: "Prof. Levine" <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:04:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] One African-American Family's Journey to Judaism
At 06:26 AM 8/24/2010, you wrote:
>The question of whether to have guests at your seder is separate
>from the one about inviting non-Jews for yom tov meals. That's a
>policy question with no halachic implications. "Vehigadta levincha"
>in no way implies that when you speak to your children, guests may
>not be present.
I never meant to imply that there are halachic implications about
having Jewish guests on one's Sedarim. I was simply pointing out
that if one has too many guests, then there is a tendency for the
children to be left out. We usually limit the number of non-family
guests to 3 or 4.
>
>As for inviting non-Jews (who are preparing for gerus) for Shabbos
>but not for yom tov, well, sometimes they need to learn about yom
>tov, too, and book learning is not always sufficient. I guess on a
>case by case basis, ask your own rav what to do. If you are not
>comfortable with goyim (or indeed, with any guests) at your seder, that's
Non-Jews who are preparing for geirus should certainly study and be
made familiar with the laws of Yom Tov. However, I see no reason why
they have to experience Yom Tov before the convert, given that there
can be halachic problems with inviting them before their
conversion. Once they are Jews, then, of course, they should be
invited, if one feels they will benefit from being on one's home for Yom Tov.
Yitzchok Levine
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Message: 10
From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:16:50 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] One African-American Family's Journey to Judaism
R'n TK wrote:
> The second seder is more of a problem because
> you have to warm up the food on yom tov. The first
> seder is less of a problem because you put the
> food on the heat before yom tov started.
When I was faced with such a situation, (a) I prepared everything
before Yom Tov, and (b) I asked one of the non Jewish guest to come
and put the pots on the fire and do anything else we couldn't do for
them. It was a great educational moment is distinguishing before from
after conversion.
--
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
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Message: 11
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:32:12 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] One African-American Family's Journey to Judaism
Far be it for me to impugn the credentials of "Ask Moses" but if you'd looked in Shulchan Aruch (O"Ch 512:1) you'd have found:
a. One may not cook for a nonJew on Yom Tov, **therefore** one should not invite him.
b. One may, however, send food to a nonJew's house or feed a nonJew who "just pops in" (my words, not Sh"A)
c. One may feed one's nonJewish servant and even add to the amount being cooked, as long as it's in the same pot.
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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Message: 12
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:43:18 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Inviting nochrim on yomtov
<<It seems to me that he can be informed of the halacha, and that this
is the reason he has not received and will not be receiving any formal
invitation, and therefore that he shouldn't sit back and wait for one>>
I was told of a "ger in training" who went to a family he knew and invited himself over for a meal on Y"T, ,but he wasn't telling them which one!
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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Message: 13
From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:58:13 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] new editions
RMB wrote:
> a- Arguably the Beis Yoseif was a rishon, but
> as the author of a post-SA teshuvah the very
> same mechaber is arguably an acharon!
Sorry, but - bim'hilat kevot Torato - the above sounds like pure
nonsense. Writing (even printing) the SA was not a magical moment that
turned all authors into A'haronim. In fact, if you'd want to go by
acceptance of the SA as *the* codex, then you'd want to know when it
was accepted, which took at least a few years.
But all that is unneeded. There is no strict demarcation line, just
like there is no strict line between Tannaim and Amoraim, with Rav
tanna upalig, R' 'Hiyya and R' Oshaya, etc. Why should the Rishonim
fare better than the Tannaim and have a strict line that "protects"
them from the A'haronim? And I didn't even get to the sources that
state that given true greatness, one can calmly disagree with Rishonim
and even Geonim. Just the Talmud is a solid line. I believe R' Moshe
says so, I didn't see it inside, but heard it a few months ago from R'
Hershel Schachter.
So, I agree that there are different ways to attempt to figure out
what the Beis Yossef *really* thought (and I am quite mystified that
you left out his magnum opus from the sources of possible definite
opinion. I would consider that the most weighty source), but I cannot
see how a responsum written after the SA's publication date would be
less weighty than a responsum written five years earlier.
--
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Cows moo-ve over: camel milk coming to Europe
* Scharfe Analyse der Gaza-Flotte auf ARD
* The New Face of Jewish Studitainment
* Should Humanity Call it Quits
* Sollten wir alle Kohanim sein?
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Message: 14
From: martin brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:38:15 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] re,tehillim for the sick
See Shavuos 15B and SA YD #179.
Not permitted.
Especially as it is sometimes mindless chanting.
--
Martin Brody
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Message: 15
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:40:41 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] what was he thinking?
<I didn't know signing first was a kibud, though.>.
Gittin 10b.
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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Message: 16
From: "M Cohen" <mco...@touchlogic.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:48:29 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] SA and LH
does anyone have a good answer why SA doesn't mention hilchos LH?
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Message: 17
From: "Harry Weiss" <hjwe...@panix.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:25:08 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Ki Seitzei and Yaaqov
> From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
>
> I have a half-developed idea about the parallels between this week's
> parashah and the events in the second-half of seifer Bereishis. Bevause
> I only have the start of an idea, I thought that it may be fun to
> bat around here.
>
> What started this notion was when I noticed that the Racheil is described
> as "yefas to'ar". Then we have Yitzchaq's wayward son, Eisav. Yoseif,
> the bekhor ben ha'ahuvah. And Yoseif is sent to be killed and left
> there. (Unlike the person who must be taken down off the tree.) The ox
> driven away, a plausible Yoseif reference as well. As is the shaatnez
> garment. The lying husband, the rape victim -- Dinah? Etc...
Take a look at last week's Shnayim Mikra on OU Radio. That was discussed.
Go to top.
Message: 18
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:29:04 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] smoking and RSYE
I believe I once saw that R Elyashiv refused to prohibit smoking (weekdays)
on the grounds that the body of a Jew is different than the body of a
nonJew and so
the medical studies are not relevant
Can anyone verify (or against) my memory and if possible provide any written
source
Thanks
--
Eli Turkel
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