Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 163

Mon, 16 Aug 2010

• 1. is psak local or universal? (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 2. Re: ksav ivri (Gershon Dubin)
• 3. Re: ksav ivri (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Concerts in Reform temples (Sarah Green)
• 5. Re: Concerts in Reform temples (T6...@aol.com)
• 6. Re: Concerts in Reform temples (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 7. Re: Leshon haKodesh (Poppers, Michael)
• 8. ksav ivri (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: Paleo-Hebrew Script (Arie Folger)
• 10. Re: What's the berakha on hearts of palm? (Arie Folger)
• 11. Re: Parameters of breastfeeding in public (Arie Folger)
• 12. Re: Paleo-Hebrew Script (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: What's the berakha on hearts of palm? (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: What's the berakha on hearts of palm? (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Leshon haKodesh (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: What's the berakha on hearts of palm? (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: is religion relevant (Micha Berger)

http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2010/08/balancing-universals
-of-halachic-theory.html

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<<As to the comments on letter shape (in k'tav m'ruba) 
changing with time, I've found one change that shocks many 
and is hard for them to believe is that, in all old 
manuscripts (Keter, Leningrad, etc.), the left leg of the 
hei reaches the horizontal gag just as does the left leg of 
the chet. The difference between the two letters is not in a 
gap in the leg but in the projection of the gag beyond the 
leg.  If anyone on list was one of the unbelievers, take a 
look at the photos of the Keter on the internet.>>

OK, color me shocked.  But how does that work out with the Gemara describing the heh as having an opening through which baalei teshuva can enter?  
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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R' David Bannett wrote:

> As to the comments on letter shape (in k'tav m'ruba) changing with
> time, I've found one change that shocks many and is hard for them
> to believe is that, in all old manuscripts (Keter, Leningrad, etc.),
> the left leg of the hei reaches the horizontal gag just as does the
> left leg of the chet. The difference between the two letters is not
> in a gap in the leg but in the projection of the gag beyond the leg.
> If anyone on list was one of the unbelievers, take a look at the
> photos of the Keter on the internet.

I was curious, but presumed that that the "photos" RDB refers to would be
found only in some obscure academic corner of the 'net. But, on a lark, I
googled the words "keter manuscript", and in less than a minute I was at http://aleppocode
x.org/links/imagesjpgs/3.2.1a.jpg

It appears to me exactly at RDB described. In both the heh and ches, the
left side goes all the way to the top. But while the left side of the ches
is all the way on the left, the heh has it indented about a third of the
way towards the right side. Fascinating!

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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From a shiur by Mrs. Esther Wein (see 
http://www.torahanytime.com/Mrs/Esther_Wein/index.html for more... I believe it 
was Parshas Re'eh I heard this - I am paraphrasing)

She describes how she was a madricha in a seminary at the time when there was a 
drive to find potential bone marrow donors for Jay Feinberg, and she asked her 
grandfather, Rav Shimon Schwab, ztz"l, whether she could take the girls to a 
local testing site at a non-O place of worship.  RSS asked if there was any 
alternative.

Well, she told him, she could go two weeks later to another testing site in 
Westchester, but they'd have to rent transportation, and spend several hours 
traveling.

He thought for a moment and said, "Esther, go to Westchester."

She asked, "Opa, for pikuach nefesh you can't be mattir to go into that 
building?" 


His answer: "Esther, for pikuach nefesh, you can't shlep to Westchester?"



      
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From: "Prof. Levine" <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> 
> Once I was asked to speak at a Chabad Shabbaton in  Framingham, MA in 
> Harold S. Kushner's (When Bad Things Happen to Good  People) 
> temple....
> Rav  Schwab was a very wise man. He said to me, "I will not pasken for 
> you, but I  hold that one is not even allowed to walk through the door 
> of a reform or  conservative temple. Whatever you do there strengthens 
> them. I know that Reb  Moshe holds that one is allowed to teach in 
> their afternoon schools, but I  disagree." He suggested I call someone else.

> I called Rav Bick, ZT"L, who  told me that since it was so close to 
> the weekend, I was committed to going.  However, he suggested that I 
> not do this again.

My father also held that it is assur to teach in a C school.

--Toby Katz
==========

Well, B"H I was finally able to reach my rav. He told me it would be
acceptable, given that it is a non-religious use of the space. Thank you
all for your fascinating input!

--
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
(212) 463-0400 x5230
http://www.tourolib.org/

Access problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu


> At 06:26 PM 8/11/2010, R. Y. Schaffer wrote:
> 
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> Is anyone aware of the halachah concerning concerts in Reform temples? 
>> Specifically, I was an organist in a previous life, and am interested in 
>> dusting off my chops and playing again. There are several Reform (and 
>> Conservative, I believe) places in NYC with concert organs, and I would 
>> like to avail myself if possible. I've been having trouble reaching my 
>> rav, so I'd like to see if anyone has experience with this question here.
>> 
>> Off the top of my head I can't figure any reason why not, but this isn't 
>> exactly the type of halachos I typically hear being discussed in Passaic 
>> or Bnei Brak or the other places I've been. I am assuming that one is 
>> not allowed to enter a church for this purpose, and anyway, having grown 
>> up Episcopalian myself, I think I would find that awkward, to say the least.
>> 
>> Many thanks,
>> 
>> -- 
>> Yitzchak Schaffer
> 
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In Avodah V27n160#6, RZS wrote:
> There are those who spell "Tikanta Shabbos" with a kaf.  It seems to
me that the root is KNN.
> However, most siddurim have it with a kuf, and once again it means
"set in place", not "repair". <
I'm tempted to ask if R'Zev (or anyone) surveyed siddurim on this subject
(as per R'Micha's subsequent message, apparently someone did :) -- see
below).  I've never seen it w/ a quf, but based on what I'm about to quote,
I think I know why I'm unfamiliar with it while R'Zev is very familiar with
it.  In his in-depth discussion this week (P'Shof'tim5770, V7n49) of
"Tikanta Shabbas," R'A.Katz of Beurei haTefila, while quoting from Siddur
RaShY, Seifer haManhig, Seifer Kolbo, and Siddur G'onim uMqubalim, doesn't
bring any textual variant listing the word with a quf until he quotes
Pirush haT'filos v'haB'rachos Rabbeinu Y'hudah b'R' Yaqar (who says all of
Tzarfas has the word with a quf based on Qoheles 12:9 and explains it as
per BT Eiruvin 21b's "Shlomo tiqqein eiruv l'Shabbas," while in S'farad
it's with a kaf based on Mishlei 9:1 and T'hilim 75:4).  He then quotes MA
286 (noting the quf in kisvei haARY vs. the kaf in BY b'sheim Shibbolei
haLeqet and "v'chein haminhag"ging the
  latter) and SHaDaL in his Mavo l'Machzor Roma (supporting spelling the
  word with a quf).  Last and not least, he quotes Prof. Goldschmidt (who,
  inter alia, says that we find the word with a quf in "siddurei haG'onim"
  and with a kaf in the kisvei yad of Machzor Vitry; the latter spelling
  was preserved in most manuscripts recording minhagei Tzarfas v'Ashk'naz
  v'Italia while the former is in an old edition of Machzor Roma [from
  5246, if I read him correctly --MP] and editions of Machzor Romania and,
  recently, has been adopted by chasidei CHaBaD). 

In the subsequent digest, R'Micha wrote:
> BTW, my off-list emailer poited out that in fact "Tikanta Shabbos" with
a kaf is either rare or non-existent. He checked siddurim from Germany
to Edot haMizrach. <
Which "siddurim from Germany" don't have it with a kaf??

FWIW, both Goldschmidt as quoted by RAKatz and Baer see little or no
difference in meaning between "tikanta" and "tiqanta."	Baer writes:
"Tikanta: konanta, l'shon tiqqun k'mo 'v'shamayim bazzeres tikkein'
{Y'sha'yahu 40:12} shehu k'mo 'tiqqein' b'quf k'mo shekasav RaDaQ b'shoresh
'kasher," v'chein b'emes goreis ibn Yarchi 'tiqanta' b'quf, ach bisfareinu
gam b'Avudraham uvRoqeiach uvTanya v'Kolbo v'Tur hu b'chaf...."

A gut'n Shabbes and all the best from
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

Re << My PhD student can read ivri script without any
difficulty.>>

I don't think a PhD is required.  A number of my
grandchildren use k'tav 'ivri to send notes to one another.>>

The students thesis involves image processing to read ancient ostraca.
I did not mean that you need a PhD to read ksav ivri


-- 
Eli Turkel

RABannett wrote:
> As to the comments on letter shape (in k'tav
> m'ruba) changing with time, I've found one
> change that shocks many and is hard for
> them to believe is that, in all old manuscripts
> (Keter, Leningrad, etc.), the left leg of the hei
> reaches the horizontal gag just as does the
> left leg of the chet.

I vaguely recall this being documented in a Rashi. Can anyone refresh my memory?
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Equal Justice for All
* Brutal Women of Nazi Germany
* Gibt es in der Unterhaltungsliteratur eine Rolle f?r G"tt?
* If You Work With Garbage, You Will Get Dirty
* Cows moo-ve over: camel milk coming to Europe
* Scharfe Analyse der Gaza-Flotte auf ARD
* The New Face of Jewish Studitainment

RMB worte:
> If the tree's major consumable is something other than
> a fruit, it could still be a ha'eitz. (However, they still are
> exempt from orlah - YD 194:2.) I assumed from RAF that
> hearts of palm are not taken from date or coconut trees,
> and therefore they themselves are this particular kind
> of palm's primary food product.

Yes, indeed, you captured all my assumptions correctly. I do hope I
understood the issue correctly. Up until now, I have been making
haadama, because I thought it was the secondary product of the tree,
for example, from a date palm, though I also assumed it was cultivated
for this purpose. But when researching how it is grown, I started
becoming confused.

While I must admit I cannot recalled having learned the gemara cited
in this regard (thought I might have), I would still wonder whether
the gemara was talking about the same kind of product. Was it also
harvested from the same kind of palms as today? Or did it come from
palms bearing other, more primary fruits?

The fact that the current recommendations found on the internet differ
so widely (shehakol, haadama and ha'etz) shows that I am not the only
confused soul. Thank you all for the pointers.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Equal Justice for All
* Brutal Women of Nazi Germany
* Gibt es in der Unterhaltungsliteratur eine Rolle f?r G"tt?
* If You Work With Garbage, You Will Get Dirty
* Cows moo-ve over: camel milk coming to Europe
* Scharfe Analyse der Gaza-Flotte auf ARD
* The New Face of Jewish Studitainment

I recall being with my wife in a Borough Park store, as she noticed
the shop clerk nursing WHILE SERVING CUSTOMERS. She did it discretely
enough, and so I didn't notice.

It seems that it is done in frum circles, but obviously discretely.

Good Shabbos,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Equal Justice for All
* Brutal Women of Nazi Germany
* Gibt es in der Unterhaltungsliteratur eine Rolle f?r G"tt?
* If You Work With Garbage, You Will Get Dirty
* Cows moo-ve over: camel milk coming to Europe
* Scharfe Analyse der Gaza-Flotte auf ARD
* The New Face of Jewish Studitainment

About the closed hei, is this a halachic/religious issue, or is it just
an interesting script, like discussing the lack of shelf overhanging
the upright on the right side of the dalet in kesav Rashi?

IOW, any indication this was done in STa"M? It is only then that we have
RGD's question about this hei not fitting the gemara's description.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

Micha Berger wrote:

> If the tree's major consumable is something other than a fruit, it
> could still be a ha'eitz. (However, they still are exempt from orlah -
> YD 294:2.)

How can this be so?  How can the tree itself be called its own fruit?
Surely it's the fruit of the ground that produced it.  Where is the 
source for this?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 02:36:59PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Micha Berger wrote:
>> If the tree's major consumable is something other than a fruit, it
>> could still be a ha'eitz. (However, they still are exempt from orlah -
>> YD 294:2.)

> How can this be so?  How can the tree itself be called its own fruit?
> Surely it's the fruit of the ground that produced it.  Where is the  
> source for this?

Sugar cane is the same sugya but simpler in two ways:

1- Do we consider heart-of-palm palm trees distinct from date and coconut
palms? If not, then heart-of-palms are not the primary produce. Sugar is.

2- Sugar is generally made from canes cultivated for that purpose.

R' Bodner is quoted on brachot.org as holding that Brazilian hearts of
palm are cut from wildly grown palms trees, and therefore are shehakol
as per the SA (and Shemuel in the gemara), whereas those from Ecuador
are cultivated, and are ha'adamah.

Not an issue for sugar. And that makes sugar an easier place to find
rishonim, since many assume that #2 points to a change in metzi'us -- the
SA was talking about wild palms, whereas most of ours are farmed. (Except
R' Bodner who says that if the label says Brazil, assume they weren't.)

WRT sugar, the Rambam (Berakhos 8:5) records a machloqes ge'onim between
those who say ha'adamah and those who say ha'eitz. The Rambam himself says
that the need for fire to produce usable sugar reduces it to shehakol,
but says that hearts of palm are also shehakol -- not explaining why
sugar needs a reason to be shehakol, the flowers of a caper are haadamah,
but hearts of palm are shehakol even without fire.

I got lost in the Tur, but it's clear from him and the BY that ha'eitz
are among the possibilities for can sugar. For that matter, the SA 202:15
rules that one makes a shehakol, but haadamah and ha'eitz are okay
bedi'eved bercause those are the options. See also the Biur Halakhah ad
loc.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:59:48PM -0400, Poppers, Michael wrote:
: In Avodah V27n160#6, RZS wrote:
:> However, most siddurim have it with a kuf, and once again it means
:> "set in place", not "repair".
...
: In the subsequent digest, R'Micha wrote:
:> BTW, my off-list emailer poited out that in fact "Tikanta Shabbos" with
:> a kaf is either rare or non-existent. He checked siddurim from Germany
:> to Edot haMizrach.

: Which "siddurim from Germany" don't have it with a kaf??

That's because I misspoke, switching kaf and quf. I was trying to disagree,
not support, RZS's contention with what's said lemaaseh.

: FWIW, both Goldschmidt as quoted by RAKatz and Baer see little or no
: difference in meaning between "tikanta" and "tiqanta."...

There is also little or no difference between re-establishing something
that already exists and repairing it. And yet on this quibble, RZS
is asserting that lesaqein olam doesn't mean "repairing the world". I
therefore pointed out that it can't mean "re-establishing the world in
Shakai's kingdom" if there is no "re-".

The problem with the liberal take in Tikkun Olam is IMHO twofold:

1- It lacks bemalkhus Shakai. Look at context. The tefillah opens
Aleinu leshabeiach laAdon hakol. We then flow into the next paragraph
with "[ve]al kein" -- therefore. And when we describe the result of
lesaqein olam, we have "vekhol benei basar yiqre'u bishmekha".

RSMontagu wrote on Areivim:
> The claim that the term doesn't appear "in any Jewish source, in any
> context" doesn't stand up to 2 minutes Googling:
> http://www.go
> ogle.com/search?q=%22%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%9F+%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%9C
> %D7%9D%22+site%3Ahebrewbooks.org&;ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

> Judging by the title page, http://www.hebrewbooks.org/8637, seems to be at
> least within shouting distance of the R&C sense of TO as social justice.
> However, I don't want to press this point, since I think RZS' original
> statement that the non-O use TO as a replacement for Torah is accurate
> enough today, whatever the history of the phrase.

It is not enough to link TO to choshein mishpat. One must be ehrlach
*because* it's avodas haBorei.

Li nir'eh this is a plausible nimshal for the Ari's notion of tiqun --
to use olam hazeh al pi haTorah.

2- They use the term to mean social justice and ecology and other western
liberal values. Not having halakhah, they can't mean choshein mishpat
as the author of Aleinu intended.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org        in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org   or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

I looked into the sugar issue in depth about 25 years ago, so I've
forgotten most of it.  As I recall, a lot of the rishonim didn't have
a clear grasp of the metzius, such as whether cane really is grown
for refined sugar or for sucking the juice from the raw cane.
The "ha'etz" possibility may come from someone unclear on how the
canes grow.  There's a similar confusion with cinnamon, where some
rishonim (perhaps starting with tosfos) believed it to be a cane that
grows from the ground, or perhaps confused it with an actual cane that
was passed off in their day as cinnamon.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 06:54:19PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: is religion relevant
: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3935165,00.html

While I agree with RLBrackman, the author, that the answer is "yes",
I vehemently disagree with his definition of religion and he contradicts
himself in defining knowledge.

Subtitle:
    In essence, religion gives us options to believe where knowledge is
    no longer applicable

A bisl rachmanus on the Rambam!

Let's go back to Plato... He gave the classic definition of knowledge,
and while it has problems, I haven't heard of a better one. Knowledge
is justified true belief. Unpacking that:

If
    I have reason to believe something,
and
    that something happens to be true
then
    I know it.

Not that belief is something we do when we can't know -- knowing is a
subset of believing. The phrasing is to my mind a presentation nightmare,
as it makes it out like we're less sure of our religious postulates than
of our empirical ones.

And it's not even what he intends to say. From the article:
    One may be able to divide knowledge into three categories. The first
    is made up of the things that we know empirically -- the undeniable
    facts that we can see, feel and hear. Religion has very little to
    say to this category....
     
     The second category is the things that we are unable to
     actually experience empirically but evidence points in a certain
     direction. There are numerous examples for this. Many articles
     of faith are subject to competing arguments and each side brings
     evidence to support their view. The argument for the existence of
     God is one such example....

     Where religion is most helpful, however, is in the third category:
     the things that are unknowable using the regular methods of
     obtaining data and knowledge. ...

IOW, religion is about non-empirical knowledge. Nu, good. But then he
shifts back again:
    Granted that the veracity of the answers religion provides is
    impossible cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. But that is
    beside the point because religion is a belief system that by its
    very nature depends of the willingness of an individual to accept
    the proposition without the evidence. If there was solid evidence
    it would be considered fact rather than an article of faith.

RLB confuses the solidity of my ability to share my proof with the
solidity of the proof itself WRT my own knowledge.

I have no doubt that I love my wife. There are husbands who gave their
lives because they knew they loved their wives. (Or even more than
dying to save their wives: those who lived for decades caring for
an ill spouse.) That is also non-empirical knowledge. Known beyond
any doubt. Even though I can't prove my love in some philosophically
or scientifically solid way to anyone else. At most I can point to a
husband's sacrifice as an example of knowledge in the second category --
the evidence is indicative, but can be interpreted other ways.

We share the physical world. So, proofs about empirical world are easier
to demonstrate to others. But that doesn't make the physical more real,
its proofs more sound, or its knowledge more solid.

 ===

As for religion and knowledge... I think that religion's focus isn't on
answers, but on giving us a framework for asking the right questions.
Yes, belief in a Borei who is Yachid uMeyuchad, who gave us the Torah,
etc... is critical. But I think that if these known facts didn't help us
frame the questions of how to live our lives, they wouldn't be religion.

IOW, Yahadus is about asking oneself "How can I be an avda deQBH?"
That presumes knowing something about HQBH and how He revealed what He
wants of us. But the knowledge isn't what we face in our deepest religious
moments -- it is which questions we ask given that knowledge.

As RYBS put it in Qol Dodi Dofeiq: The Jewish question of tragedy is not
"Why?" but "How am I to respond?" Thus the difference between Yahadus
and Notzrus isn't only on the level of whether we believe we can redeem
ourselves, or whether the human being is hopeless and some kind of savior
is necessary. It's even a step before -- in the questions asked. We
not only get different answers, we focus on different problems.

This attitude toward religion helps avoid losing emunah when faced with
what an insurance company would call an "act of G-d". (Notice that the
more obviously good things He does never get this title...) Realizing
that we can't comprehend all the answers, and on the matters that really
shape our lives, and the moral questions that really provide difficult
dilemmas, the iqar is to know the right questions.

Admittedly, it would make qiruv far more difficult than if we pretend
that all of life's questions could be answered and tied up in a bow in
just one short series of classes. But life isn't easy.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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