Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 162

Thu, 12 Aug 2010

• 1. Re: Paleo-Hebrew Script (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Netziv on Monarchy (Micha Berger)
• 3. Concerts in Reform temples (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Concerts in Reform temples (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Parameters of breastfeeding in public (Aryeh Herzig)
• 6. Re: Concerts in Reform temples (T6...@aol.com)
• 7. Re: Transgendering and Halachah (T6...@aol.com)
• 8. Re: Transgendering and Halachah (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: What's the berakha on hearts of palm? (T6...@aol.com)
• 10. Re: What's the berakha on hearts of palm? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: ksav ivri (D&E-H Bannett)
• 12. Parameters of breastfeeding in public (M Cohen)
• 13. Re: Concerts in Reform temples (Joel C. Salomon)

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:31:02AM -0400, Prof. Levine forwarded from
an anonymous emailer:
> * By now, there is ample evidence that Paleo-Hebrew script was indeed
> the only one in use during Bayis Rishon. If Ashuris already existed,
> it was very severely restricted, because AFAIK no document with
> Ashuris has been found in Bayis Rishon Israel.

You then hedge on this:
> is no way to prove or disprove this, since the number of documents
> where Ashuris would have been permissible was comparatively small (the
> Lu'hos and perhaps the sifrei Torah, made of materials that
> disintegrate over time, so that none were preserved to this day that

As I wrote in the post I linked to before (v8n113), the data is also
consistent with the third shitah on Sanhedrin 22b:
> 3- R' Shim'on ben Elazar, and a mass of others, give the final opinion.
> The two factors, number and finality, leads a few rishonim to conclude
> that this is the gemara's maskana.

> The script was always used in sifrei qodesh. Rather, it was only
> popularized for other writing biymei Ezra.

Back to the anonymous email:
> * Whether Kessav Ashuris was the original alphabet or not is a matter
> of dispute in the Talmud. The Bavli in Sanhedrin rules that Ashuris
> was the original alef-beis...

> * I understand that the Yerushalmi concludes differently than the
> Bavli,

As above, that's the gemara in Megillah, implied by "mem vesamech
shebaluchos", but is does NOT appear to be the masqanah in Mes' Sanhedrin.
R' Yosi, the first name on the third opinion in Mes' Sanhedrin, is a 
major voice in the Y-mi, so this may not be coincidental. (Unless
I'm getting two different R' Yosi's confused.)

>        and even if it didn't, on historical matters, either something
> was or wasn't, and the usual rules of arriving at halakhic conclusions
> don't apply, so the rejected view in the Bavli may just as well be
> right.

It could be, but it wouldn't be halachic. Just as the nisuch hamayim in
bayis rishon not being halachic as per pesaqim in bayis sheini. (And the
shisin in the mizbeiach in bayis sheini made this new nisuch hamayim
possible, and weren't in the first mizveiach.) This is a point I want
to develop further down.

> * It certainly seems more convincing that Ashuris was from Ashur, and
> that under the guidance of Neviiim, we allowed the adoption of this
> new script, because one would be hard pressed to explain how a bunch
> of exiled, downtrodden people could teach an empire to use a new
> alphabet...

WELLL.... Mentioning those neviim... They were major figures in the
court of Bavel and among the intelligentsia of that empire. Could they
not have taught Ashuris to Ashur?

Could the writing on the wall in the days of Daniel not have been taken
by the Assyrians as a sign that heaven uses a different script and they
should to?

But I prefer the resolution in the beggining of Yonah Rabba. I have no
idea how old YR is, but it's a clever resolution...
Of the generation of the Hahaflagah (I'm guessing this is as opposed to
the elders alive at time, like Sheim) two people refused to participate.
Avraham and Ashur. Avraham was given the gift of lashon haqodesh.
Ashur was given two gifts: kesav Ashuris, and Nineveh being given a
second chance in the days of Yonah.

And so, the script ends up being that of heavenly Osher AND of Ashur.

...
> * The modern understanding of the significance of tagin is problematic
> no matter what...

This is where I think the difference between history and halakhah is
relevent.

Tagin are significant whether the product of Adam's pre-haflagah
knowledge, Moshe's nevu'ah, Ezra's nevu'ah, or bestowed to the tannaim
by ruach haqodesh just in time for R' Aqiva to darshen them. (Which I
think is guzmah for his darshening "extra" words that are normal idiom,
but that's a different discussion.) We now pasqen they are mandatory,
at least lechatkhilah -- I think that of the tagin, only qutzo shel yud
is me'aqev. 

>          Rabbi Akivo believes in connecting the messoroh, including
> halokho leMoshe miSinai, to the Biblical text with whatever methods he
> could come up with...

Basically, R' Aqiva tried to eliminate TSBP as a distinct concept. More
like that which is more or less obvious in the Torah. Could be related
to his founding a school of medrash halakhah as well as initiating
the mishnah project. Leshitaso, there is no devarim shebe'al peh that
one can't write down.

> * Regarding the requirements that kisvei kodesh be written
> kehaviyatam, that refers to the minimal tzuras haos, the pessu'hos and
> setumos (and seduros, according to those Rishonim who hold we have
> such a kind of parshiyo), and that we generally follow the pessak of
> the botei din hagedolim shebiyrusholayim throughout the generations of
> yore. That is our messorah, not some historical revisionism as to the
> "true" tzuras haosiyos. Anshei Knesses haGedolo had enough authority,
> and some prophets to boot, to obligate us in writing this way.

Well, isn't a letter a convention among those who use it?

In any case, your description of your position WRT tzuras ha'os blurs
lechat-khilah, bedi'eved, and hidurim. You skip between whether tagin of
"significant", which even as a hidur would imply they are to what kind
of tzuras ha'os is kasher.

> * Regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls with the Sheim Havayo in Kessav
> 'Ivris, there are two ways to understand that: Either the switch to
> Ashuris took a lot longer than we think, and people didn't "trust" the
> new script for the holiest word...

Or people didn't want the holiest word in the holiest script. (As you
later write, which again follows the form of firm claim followed by
a conflicting opinion.)

Or the Qumranim bedavqa wanted to be cholqim on us WRT kesav.

BTW, here's a picture of what the author is writing about. Here is
a section from Hallel <http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/images/psalm-b.jpg>
See on the 1st amudah, the 2nd line ends "Beis Aharon" <new line>
"borkhu es H'".

My point overall is that for someone who notes all those conflicting
possibilities, you sure come across as being very convinced of a given
position.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 06:43:43PM -0500, Ira Tick wrote:
: So the question remains, which form of government is ideal for a Torah
: society, all other things being equal?

I asked the same question a short while back WRT economics.

There is an alternative possibility in both cases, rather than saying
the Torah wants a constitutional monarchy or a democracy, or where in the
spectrum between communism and lesseiz fair economics the Torah requires,
perhaps the decisision is situational. Rather than choosing a system,
the Torah gives us guidelines for how to implement the system we choose
biqedushah. (Barring some alternatives as being altogether assur.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger

At 06:26 PM 8/11/2010, R. Y. Schaffer wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>Is anyone aware of the halachah concerning concerts in Reform temples?
>Specifically, I was an organist in a previous life, and am interested in
>dusting off my chops and playing again. There are several Reform (and
>Conservative, I believe) places in NYC with concert organs, and I would
>like to avail myself if possible. I've been having trouble reaching my
>rav, so I'd like to see if anyone has experience with this question here.
>
>Off the top of my head I can't figure any reason why not, but this isn't
>exactly the type of halachos I typically hear being discussed in Passaic
>or Bnei Brak or the other places I've been. I am assuming that one is
>not allowed to enter a church for this purpose, and anyway, having grown
>up Episcopalian myself, I think I would find that awkward, to say the least.
>
>Many thanks,
>
>--
>Yitzchak Schaffer

In a previous gilgul ( >:-} ), I used to speak for Chabad.  (I know 
that many will not believe this, but it is indeed true.)

Once I was asked to speak at a Chabad Shabbaton in Framingham, MA in 
Harold S. Kushner's (When Bad Things Happen to Good People) 
temple.  Not long before the event, I became uneasy about this, given 
that I knew that people would be riding on Shabbos to hear me 
speak.  I called Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT"L, and asked him what I should 
do. I explained that nothing would take place in the sanctuary.

Rav Schwab was a very wise man. He said to me, "I will not pasken for 
you, but I hold that one is not even allowed to walk through the door 
of a reform or conservative temple. Whatever you do there strengthens 
them. I know that Reb Moshe holds that one is allowed to teach in 
their afternoon schools, but I disagree." He suggested I call someone else.

I called Rav Bick, ZT"L, who told me that since it was so close to 
the weekend, I was committed to going. However, he suggested that I 
not do this again. I went, and after that I never spoke for Chabad on 
Shabbos. In fact, it was not long before I stopped speaking for 
Chabad altogether.

So, I have to assume that according to Rav Schwab you should not go 
into these places at all.

YL
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On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 06:59:40PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> I called Rav Bick, ZT"L, who told me that since it was so close to the 
> weekend, I was committed to going. However, he suggested that I not do 
> this again. I went, and after that I never spoke for Chabad on Shabbos. 
> In fact, it was not long before I stopped speaking for Chabad altogether.

When I lived in Queens, the building of the shul I attended was condemned.
Emergency building fund and construction plan. The only building they
could find space in was the local C-nagogue.

R' Zvi Flaum, who was the shul's LOR at the time, asked RDLifshitz. RDL
permitted the shul moving to the building IF
    1- it had its own entrance; and
    2- that entrance was clearly marked as being for the O shul.

So, what about a concert in a R Temple where there is similarly no mar'is
ayin issue?

I don't know if RDL would have pasqened leniently when the motivation is
something less religiously compelling. Unfortunately, I can no longer ask.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Liron Kopinsky wrote:
<<Hi All,
I have been discussing the idea of breastfeeding in public (with a cover, of
course) with my wife and we were wondering if anyone had some thoughts on
the subject.>>



see Ksubos 75a: Says Rabba bar bar Chana: I witnessed an Arabic woman who
slung her breast over her shoulder to nurse her baby.

Since this amora is known for documenting strange and unusual events he is
describing an unusual physical characteristic of this woman.

But why mention that she is Arabic (Arabiah)?  Perhaps because the lack of
Tznius?

Or, is it like the many other times that he routinely tells a story that
includes "Hahu Taaya" (This here Arab) and breastfeeding in public was the
norm then.
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InFrom: Yitzchak Schaffer _yitzchak.schaffer@gmx.com_ 
(mailto:yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com) 

>>  Is anyone aware of the halachah concerning concerts in Reform temples?  
Specifically, I was an organist in a previous life, and am interested in  
dusting off my chops and playing again. There are several Reform (and  
Conservative, I believe) places in NYC with concert organs, and I would  
like to avail myself if possible. I've been having trouble reaching my  
rav, so I'd like to see if anyone has experience with this question  here.<<


-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer

 
>>>>>
 
 
My father would not enter a Conservative or Reform building at all, even to 
 attend a kosher-catered Orthodox simcha in the social hall.
 
But maybe you can find an organ in the auditorium of your local public  
school?
 

--Toby Katz
==========



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From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org) 


RMB:  The  first teshuvah, the one I cited (vol 10, shaar 25, pereq 26, os 
6),
was a  hypothetical case of a transexual who wouldn't give a get. REW
pasqened none  was needed, the qiddushin had no man-woman couple on which
to be chal  anymore....You're describing a second teshuvah, written by a 
doctor who read  the
first one.




TK:    If it was a "hypothetical case" then it wasn't  actually a psak at 
all.  As for a teshuvah written by a doctor, that's not  a teshuvah written 
by R' Waldenberg.
 
RMB:  I'd be interested to see statistics that the reality  actually has 
changed
in a way that would make the first pesaq. As I said,  your assumptions
aren't enough for overturning a pesaq.... Particularly  when speaking about 
ruling out a safeiq piquach
nefesh.
 
TK:  According to what you and others have written, R'  Waldenberg's 
concern in his first article (can't call it "psak" because it  was hypothetical)  
was with finding ways to free an agunah.   There is no mention there of 
pikuach nefesh.  And the second psak had  to do with a specific case in which 
the person's organs were already  ambiguous.  Again I see no mention of 
suicide or pikuach  nefesh.
 
I would like to add that the TE's contention that, after the  fact, a 
surgically created female is halachically to be considered female  in no way 
suggests that such surgery is actually permitted.
 
I would like to know how he dealt with the following very  grave issues -- 
if indeed he ever discussed them at all:
 
1.  A person is not allowed to mutilate himself or others --  chabalah.
 
2.  In addition, there is a separate issur of castration and  surgically 
causing sterility.
 
3.  A man is not allowed to wear women's clothing.  In the  lead-up to 
surgery, a man is usually told to dress as a woman and try to behave  like a 
woman for a while, to get used to it.  
 
4. The prohibition of mishkav zachar is so grave that if there is even the  
slightest doubt that this "woman"  may in fact be a man -- he/she should  
not engage in such activity.  Of course he/she now only has the  ability to 
be the passive and not the active partner in M'Z.  I don't  know if that is 
less of a sin but I doubt it.  It also raises the question  of whether the 
man who sleeps with him/her is engaged in a terrible sin.   The surgically 
created woman may be involving not only "herself" but "her"  partner is a 
terrible aveirah.
 
I would like to add further that unless a male is castrated before  puberty 
(like the Italian opera castrati -- now thankfully outlawed), he  will 
continue to have secondary male characteristics after castration -- facial  
hair, body hair, a deep voice, male muscles and so on.  In addition to  surgery, 
this person who wants to be female must take female hormones for the  rest 
of his life, and even then most such "women" will always look like men in  
drag and will always elicit stares and doubting questions.
 
When REW wrote in 1971, it was not yet known that life-long hormone  
"therapy" would be required to keep a man looking somewhat female.  At that  time 
such surgery was exceedingly rare and there weren't men/women around who  
had been "surgically created women" for very long.
 
In practice these former-men always wear dresses and skirts, high heels,  
makeup and jewelry because -- unlike regular women who can wear pants and  
sneakers and can go without makeup -- these "women" look masculine and have  
to go out of their way to do things that make them appear more feminine.
 
There are so many terribly grave shailos involved that I can't believe any  
rav today would permit this type of sex change, except in the rare case of 
a  child born with abnormal, ambiguous genitals -- in which case it is not 
"gender  reassignment" surgery but "gender assignment" surgery.




--Toby Katz
==========



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On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 01:33:36AM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: TK:    If it was a "hypothetical case" then it wasn't  actually a psak at 
: all.  As for a teshuvah written by a doctor, that's not  a teshuvah written 
: by R' Waldenberg.

The hypothetical teshuvah was included by the author in a sefer shu"t. I
should point out that many posqim included hypothetical she'eilos in their
collections, including both the mechabeir and the Rama (in their respective
sifrei shu"t). The TE intended it to influence future posqim.

The second teshuvah was written by the TE. The she'eilah was by a doctor.

...
: TK:  According to what you and others have written, R'  Waldenberg's 
: concern in his first article (can't call it "psak" because it  was hypothetical)  
: was with finding ways to free an agunah. There is no mention there of 
: pikuach nefesh...

Actually, the teshuvah is about organ transplants. And yes, he did
explicitly raise the question of piquach nefesh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

From: Arie Folger _afolger@aishdas.org_ (mailto:afol...@aishdas.org) 


>>  According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_palm we are dealing
with  an important edible product of a tree, about which I saw no
indication that  it bears any other commestble fruits. So does one make
a ha'etz on it, or if  not, why not? <<

-- 
Arie Folger,





>>>>
There are hundreds of species of palm trees and some of them grow edible  
fruit, e.g. dates and coconuts.  We have many, many different kinds of palm  
trees here in Florida.
 
But I think the bracha on hearts of palm is adama because these are plants  
that are planted and harvested like vegetables.  The fact that if allowed  
to continue growing, they would eventually grow to be trees, is not  
relevant.  Right now they are veggies and not trees.  
 
Also I think ha'etz is said only on fruit.  What bracha would you make  on 
the roots, leaves, bark or branches of a tree?  I think  adamah.  Hearts of 
palm are part of the tree itself -- they would grow up  to be wood if 
allowed to grow.  They are not fruit.
 
After writing the above I came across the following halachic article by R'  
Yirmiyohu Kaganoff on the subject.  Baruch shekivanti:
 
--quote--
 
 
Whereas most of the other items listed in this article are all relatively  
recent innovations to the Jewish diet, Jews have been eating hearts of palm 
for  probably two thousand years. The Gemara (Berachos 36a) cites a dispute 
what  bracha to recite on them! Rav Yehudah contended that the bracha should 
be  ha?adamah like any other vegetable, whereas Shmuel held that it should 
be  shehakol since it eventually hardens. The Gemara then points out that 
there are  other vegetables such as radishes that harden and become inedible, 
and yet the  bracha is ha?adamah. This seems to conflict with Shmuel?s 
opinion. Shmuel  responds that farmers plant radishes intending to eat them as 
radishes, whereas  palm trees are not planted intending to eat the hearts! 
The Gemara concludes that the halacha is like Shmuel that the bracha on 
palm  hearts is shehakol, and this is the accepted psak halacha (Shulchan Aruch 
 204:1). However, contemporary canners and producers of palm hearts do not  
usually harvest them from wild growth because of environmental and market  
availability concerns. Instead, they cultivate plantations of particular 
species  of palm for the hearts just like any other cash crop. Based on this 
information,  it seems that the correct bracha before eating palm hearts 
should be ha?adamah  and not shehakol. (It would not be ha?eitz because one is 
eating the stem, not  the fruit.) 
--end quote-- 
_http://rabbikaganoff.com/archives/1527_ 
(http://rabbikaganoff.com/archives/1527)  


--Toby Katz
==========




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It seems from a number of responses that this isn't generally known:

If the tree's major consumable is something other than a fruit, it
could still be a ha'eitz. (However, they still are exempt from orlah -
YD 194:2.) I assumed from RAF that hearts of palm are not taken from date
or coconut trees, and therefore they themselves are this particular kind
of palm's primary food product.

The star-K <http://www.star-k.org/cons-faqs-issues.htm#bracha2> says
"The proper Bracha is Ho'etz." That's the entire answer, they don't
explain the sevara.

Others hold it's a shehakol, based on the machloqes Rav Yehudah (the
amora) and Shemuel (Berakhos 36a) as to whether it would be haadamah or
shehakol. The SA (YD 204:1) holds like Shemu'el -- shehakol. However,
the gemara is clear that this is because the palm trees aren't planted
for the purpose of serving their hearts. This isn't true for mass produced
date palms, so the metzi'us is diffferent enough from the SA's to question
whether the pesaq should be the same.

The Y-mi is no help, as it has a far wider variety of berakhos than we
say. (Sorry, the daf finishes Shevi'is this weekend; Berakhos wasn't that
long ago and still on my mind.) R' Yehudah (Rebbe, not to be confused with
the Bavli's citation) holds "chayav adam levareikh mei'ein birkhosav"
and in the Y-mi that is taken very seriously. I think they would have
had you say borei minei desa'im, as one would before eating some kind
of pulp made from palm bark fibers.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Re << My PhD student can read ivri script without any 
difficulty.>>

I don't think a PhD is required.  A number of my 
grandchildren use k'tav 'ivri to send notes to one another.

When my first great grandchild was born, a had a kippa 
(s'ruga) made with the text,  "Sabba Rabba David, Sabba tov 
Yerushalayim" in k'tav 'ivri.  It might surprise some list 
members how many times, when visiting, small kids inm shul 
read it or ask me to turn it around so they can read the 
other side.

Shortly after making that kippa, someone told me that there 
is someone in Beer Sheva who puts me to shame. He has a 
kippa with a text in k'tav y'teidot (cuneiform).  A few 
years later I met the man - when my granddaughter married 
his younger brother.

As to the comments on letter shape (in k'tav m'ruba) 
changing with time, I've found one change that shocks many 
and is hard for them to believe is that, in all old 
manuscripts (Keter, Leningrad, etc.), the left leg of the 
hei reaches the horizontal gag just as does the left leg of 
the chet. The difference between the two letters is not in a 
gap in the leg but in the projection of the gag beyond the 
leg.  If anyone on list was one of the unbelievers, take a 
look at the photos of the Keter on the internet.


David

One doesn't do an activity in public that reminds pple 
of that activity or gets them thinking about that activity,
even though pple can't see the actual activity.

ie one attempts to refrain from defecating in public in a way that 
everyone knows what you are doing, even though they can't actually see.

Similarly, having sexual relations.

Similarly, the tznius issue of skirt slits 
that are located below the knee.

I assume that the 'non tznius' issue of breastfeeding 
in public covered by a nursing blanket
is that it hints to that area of the body, 
and reminds everyone that it 
is currently 'uncovered' 
(even though it is covered by the nursing blanket etc)

As with other issues that are laudatory but not mandatory,
(I doubt that anyone says that public nursing 
covered by the nursing blanket is asur min hadin)
whether one nurses in public would depend on the circumstances.

Degree of necessity?
Only non Jews around?
Distance of others to the nursing?
etc

Mordechai Cohen

On 08/11/2010 06:59 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> At 06:26 PM 8/11/2010, R. Y. Schaffer wrote:
>> Is anyone aware of the halachah concerning concerts in Reform temples?
>> Specifically, I was an organist in a previous life, and am interested in
>> dusting off my chops and playing again. There are several Reform (and
>> Conservative, I believe) places in NYC with concert organs, and I would
>> like to avail myself if possible. I've been having trouble reaching my
>> rav, so I'd like to see if anyone has experience with this question here.
> 
> In a previous gilgul ( >:-} ), I used to speak for Chabad.  (I know that
> many will not believe this, but it is indeed true.)
> 
> Once I was asked to speak at a Chabad Shabbaton in Framingham, MA in
> Harold S. Kushner's (When Bad Things Happen to Good People) temple.  Not
> long before the event, I became uneasy about this, given that I knew
> that people would be riding on Shabbos to hear me speak.  I called Rav
> Shimon Schwab, ZT"L, and asked him what I should do. I explained that
> nothing would take place in the sanctuary.
> 
> Rav Schwab was a very wise man. He said to me, "I will not pasken for
> you, but I hold that one is not even allowed to walk through the door of
> a reform or conservative temple. Whatever you do there strengthens them.
> I know that Reb Moshe holds that one is allowed to teach in their
> afternoon schools, but I disagree." He suggested I call someone else.
<snip>
> So, I have to assume that according to Rav Schwab you should not go into
> these places at all.

There's an important distinction to be made:  Your talk was connected to
a Jewish religious event, while the original poster is (I assume) asking
about a secular performance.  Rav Schwab's operational sentence is,
"Whatever you do there strengthens them"; this is not directly relevant
to the OP.

A few months ago I took a temporary job with the Census Bureau as a
recruiter.  Among my responsibilities was to administer & proctor the
application tests, and some of these tests were held in church
basements.  Rav Hillel David gave me these guidelines:
* If a test was scheduled in a church or mosque basement (i.e., not the
sanctuary) I could go, provided I entered through a side entrance; and
* If it was in a heterodox temple, I could even use the main entrance,
provided it was not during scheduled prayers.  (I don't remember whether
he differentiated between basement & sanctuary.)

(Caveat:  There might be another distinction to be made, between my case
& the OP's, regarding leniencies for parnassah.)

--Joel


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