Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 161

Wed, 8 Sep 2010

• 1. Concerts in Reform temples (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 2. ksav ivri (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: ksav ivri (Aryeh Herzig)
• 4. Re: Ksav Ivri and Ksav Ashur (S.)
• 5. Paleo-Hebrew Script (Prof. Levine)
• 6. What's the berakha on hearts of palm? (Arie Folger)
• 7. Re: Transgendering and Halachah (T6...@aol.com)
• 8. Transgendering and Halachah (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 9. Re: ksav ivri (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Transgendering and Halachah (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: What's the berakha on hearts of palm? (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: What's the berakha on hearts of palm? (Gershon Dubin)
• 13. Re: Leshon haKodesh (Micha Berger)
• 14. Parameters of breastfeeding in public (Liron Kopinsky)

Hello all,

Is anyone aware of the halachah concerning concerts in Reform temples?
Specifically, I was an organist in a previous life, and am interested
in dusting off my chops and playing again. There are several Reform (and
Conservative, I believe) places in NYC with concert organs, and I would
like to avail myself if possible. I've been having trouble reaching my
rav, so I'd like to see if anyone has experience with this question here.

Off the top of my head I can't figure any reason why not, but this isn't
exactly the type of halachos I typically hear being discussed in Passaic
or Bnei Brak or the other places I've been. I am assuming that one is not
allowed to enter a church for this purpose, and anyway, having grown up
Episcopalian myself, I think I would find that awkward, to say the least.

Many thanks,
-- 
Yitzchak  Schaffer

<<Perhaps if 99.99% can't read it there  is no Kedusha any more?>>

Just as an aside - I am working on a project with the archaeology
department on reading old pottery ostraca. My PhD student can read
ivri script without any difficulty

-- 
Eli  Turkel

I can read it also quite  quickly.

But there are very, very few of us.

Does it lose its  Kedusha since almost no one today can read it ?  (If a
tree
falls in the  forest etc.)

What do you think?

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:09 AM,  Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <<Perhaps if  99.99% can't read it there is no Kedusha any more?>>

> Just  as an aside - I am working on a project with the archaeology
> department  on reading old pottery ostraca.
> My PhD student can read ivri  script without any difficulty

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RMB:
>RSM notes that Kesav Ashuris is more likely from "osher" than Assyria, as
>it's not a script used in Assyria.

>Thinking out loud:
>OTOH, Aramaic was the Assyrian language, and Kesav Ashuris was our Aramaic
>kesav, so maybe the name reached it by that two-step association.

What we call square Hebrew certainly *was* the Aramaic script. See,
eg, an example of the Elephantine papyrus

http://www.ancientsudan.org/images/14_articles_ElephantinePapyrusC
ol6cmh.gif

Written in Aramaic, the language and the script, this is an ancestor
of our square script, or at least related if you like.

SW
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I am posting the following which I received from someone who said I could
post it, but not in his name. It contains much information about the
topic that I think is of interest, and that is why I am posting it. YL

Hi,

I am writing off list because I haven't yet decided whether I want the
following quoted in my name on the publicly archived Avodah. I would
want to first bounce this off of knowledgeable people. That said,
I offer you some thoughts.

* By now, there is ample evidence that Paleo-Hebrew script was indeed
the only one in use during Bayis Rishon. If Ashuris already existed,
it was very severely restricted, because AFAIK no document with Ashuris
has been found in Bayis Rishon Israel.

* Whether Kessav Ashuris was the original alphabet or not is a matter
of dispute in the Talmud. The Bavli in Sanhedrin rules that Ashuris
was the original alef-beis, but not permissible for daily use. There is
no way to prove or disprove this, since the number of documents where
Ashuris would have been permissible was comparatively small (the Lu'hos
and perhaps the sifrei Torah, made of materials that disintegrate over
time, so that none were preserved to this day that are older than the
Dead Sea Scrolls).

* I understand that the Yerushalmi concludes differently than the Bavli,
and even if it didn't, on historical matters, either something was or
wasn't, and the usual rules of arriving at halakhic conclusions don't
apply, so the rejected view in the Bavli may just as well be right.

* It certainly seems more convincing that Ashuris was from Ashur,
and that under the guidance of Neviiim, we allowed the adoption of
this new script, because one would be hard pressed to explain how a
bunch of exiled, downtrodden people could teach an empire to use a new
alphabet. Furthermore, if I am not mistaken, the spread of Ashuris in
Ashur predates the 'hurbon, so that I don't see when and how the hetter
to spread that alphabet came about.

* The modern understanding of the significance of tagin is problematic
no matter what. Even in early Ksav Ashuris, the tagin were not like
ours and the alef beis looked somewhat different. Anyone who believes
that we truly must stick to the precise form of letters as practiced
today, is gullible, and if a talmid 'hokhom, a fool, too. The Rishonim
had different letter shapes than we do. When the Gemoro teaches that
R'Akivo was doresh kisrei osiyos, it doesn't mean all of that was halokho
leMoshe miSinai. Rabbi Akivo doesn't hold of deroshos being reflective of
the peshat of the words, that is Rabbi Yishmo'el's shittoh. Rabbi Akivo
believes in connecting the messoroh, including halokho leMoshe miSinai,
to the Biblical text with whatever methods he could come up with. Not
the derosho, but its content is what is halokho leMoshe miSinai. Other
tannoim may disagree, but they weren't doresh kisrei osiyos.

* Regarding the requirements that kisvei kodesh be written kehaviyatam,
that refers to the minimal tzuras haos, the pessu'hos and setumos
(and seduros, according to those Rishonim who hold we have such a
kind of parshiyo), and that we generally follow the pessak of the
botei din hagedolim shebiyrusholayim throughout the generations of
yore. That is our messorah, not some historical revisionism as to the
"true" tzuras haosiyos. Anshei Knesses haGedolo had enough authority,
and some prophets to boot, to obligate us in writing this way.

* Regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls with the Sheim Havayo in Kessav 'Ivris,
there are two ways to understand that: Either the switch to Ashuris took
a lot longer than we think, and people didn't "trust" the new script
for the holiest word. If so, this was either motivated by real halakhic
concern, or by people who were trying to be overly frum, in defiance
of the Beis Din haGodol's rulings. Alternatively, by that time, it was
well accepted that real Kisvei Kidesh are written in Kessav Ashuris,
and the Sheim haShem was written in 'Ivris so as to give it less kedusho,
very much like we put a dash instead of an o in G-d so as not to create
sheimos requiring special disposal.

Feel  free to post this on list, but without my name.

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Rabosai,

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_palm we are dealing
with an important edible product of a tree, about which I saw no
indication that it bears any other commestble fruits. So does one make
a ha'etz on it, or if not, why not?

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on  http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Cows moo-ve over: camel milk coming to  Europe
* Scharfe Analyse der Gaza-Flotte auf ARD
* The New Face of Jewish  Studitainment
* Should Humanity Call it Quits
* Sollten wir alle Kohanim  sein?
* Videovortrag: Wer hat die Psalmen  verfasst?

From: Micha Berger  _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org)
: It isn't a matter of "agreeing" or "disagreeing." I am not giving a
: halachic opinion with which he may agree or disagree. He gave a psak based
: on "facts" that turned out not to be factual. It turns out that transgender
: mutilation surgery does not in fact prevent suicide. The risk of suicide
: in fact rises slightly after surgery.[--TK]

But without supporting studies showing that the metzi'us a rav would
be ruling on doesn't match that of his pesaq, it's franlky just his
assessment of the facts vs yours. REWaldenberg was the rav of Shaarei
Tzedeq Medical Center. Both his fame as a poseiq and his access to
medical knowledge make me far more inclined to believe his version.

Tir'u  baTov!
-Micha

 From a little bit of noodling around the internet it seems that the
TE's psak involved a case where the person's external organs were
ambiguous -- a chromosomal male with external [mostly] female organs,
where the question of surgery was whether to make this unfortunate
person externally completely female by removing an abnormal testicle.
This psak was in 1971. At the time, he wrote (and it was true then)
that such surgery was "of course" extremely rare and would only be done
in exceptional circumstances.

http://www.starways.net/beth/tzitz.html

Medicine has changed a lot, the culture has changed, a lot of things
have changed. He may have written halachic opinions more recently than
that, I'd be interested to see more on that, but it seems 1971 was his
last word on the subject.

One thing is certain, gender reassignment surgery has become big, big
business and is performed far more often and more regularly than it ever
used to be -- far more often than you may imagine. Today it is the first
rather than the last course of "treatment" suggested to the vast majority
of men who come to a doctor saying "I think I'm really a woman."

And based on what I've read it is being done to young children,
or at least the suggestion has been made that it should! That is,
some suggest that a boy who thinks he's a girl should be given drugs
to delay puberty so that he won't get all that hair and muscles that
will later make it difficult to surgically make him look like a woman.
I am not sure whether this is actually being done or has only been
suggested by some in the field.

My reading also suggests that far more has been read into the TE's writing
than he intended, in terms of making it OK to have mutilating surgery
done, and in terms of treating the newly created "woman" as fully female.
Again, I'd like to hear more from people who have actually read all of
what the TE wrote on the subject.

Being the rav of Sharei Tzedek would not, BTW, give a person any greater
access to longitudinal studies of the outcome of gender mutilation
surgery than would being the possessor of a computer in any city
on earth. And R' Waldenberg passed away in 1906 at the age of 90.
I really don't think what he wrote nearly forty years before has much
medical relevance today.

I believe that if he had known that his words written in 1971 would lead,
half a century later, to the cavalier emasculation of dozens or hundreds
of Jewish men, he would have been appalled and might well have written
some additional words of warning against this -- but in his wildest
imagination he could not have foreseen the crazy things that now go on
in our world. He thought he was talking about very rare cases with very
real physical reasons to undergo surgery. (In fact he also poskened that
surgery undertaken for no medical reason is assur! He held that cosmetic
surgery is assur. In 99% of cases, transgender surgery is just that --
cosmetic surgery for no real medical reason.)

--Toby Katz
==========

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RTK: "It isn't a matter of "agreeing" or "disagreeing." I am not
giving a halachic opinion with which he may agree or disagree. He gave
a psak based on "facts" that turned out not to be factual. It turns
out that transgender mutilation surgery does not in fact prevent suicide.
The risk of suicide in fact rises slightly after surgery."

It's true you're not giving an halachic opinion. But since you have
no professional expertise as a doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist
or therapist in this topic, you're also not giving a "factual"
opinion; you're simply repeating "facts" you read somewhere which, not
surprisingly, fit in with your general political/hashkafic philosophy.
I'd be much more interested in "facts" on this issue presented by
someone with real expertise and knowledge.
 My guess is that before R. Waldenberg issued his psak that's how he
obtained the facts on which it was based; not from someone without
expertise who read something in a newspaper or on the internet.

Joseph  Kaplan

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I once wrote a paper for school suggesting that it's a  global symmetry
thing. MideOraisaia, one could use perfect Ashuris with  tagin, or one
could use Ivri (probably not the Kenaani or Phoenician  variants) --
as long as one is consistent.

Local symmetry: If I turn  one snowflake out of a whole snowstorm 1/6 of
the way around, the scene is  unchanged.

Global symmetry: Like the symmetry of magnets (barring some  weird quantum
CPT symmetry effect I am not thinking of at the moment). If you  switch
north and south on one magnet, it would make a difference to the  global
picture. But if you switched all of them, all the same  relationships
would hold.

Along the same lines and also discussed in  my paper... If someone wrote
a megillah in Greek (as per the mishnah,  Megillah 1:8, in the bavli on
9a), would there be halakhos for proper  kesav?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

(The rebbe grading that paper was R'  CO Chait, and from what I recall
of his personal interests, the choice of  topic was probably aimed at
trying to interest RCOC and thus edge the grade  up a little. <g>)

-- 
Micha Berger         Here is the test to find whether your  mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is  finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it  isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507               - Richard  Bach

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 08:09:14AM -0400, T6...@aol.com  wrote:
: From a little bit of noodling around the internet it seems that the  TE's
: psak involved a case where the person's external organs were  ambiguous...

The first teshuvah, the one I cited (vol 10, shaar 25, pereq 26, os
6), was a hypothetical case of a transexual who wouldn't give a get.
REW pasqened none was needed, the qiddushin had no man-woman couple on
which to be chal anymore.

You're describing a second teshuvah, written by a doctor who read the
first one.

...
: Medicine has changed a lot, the culture has changed, a lot of things have
: changed. He may have written halachic opinions more recently than that,

: I'd be interested to see more on that, but it seems 1971 was his last word on
: the subject.

I'd be interested to see statistics that the reality actually has changed
in a way that would make the first pesaq. As I said, your assumptions
aren't enough for overturning a pesaq. (The plural of "anecdote" isn't
"data".) Particularly when speaking about ruling out a safeiq piquach
nefesh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha  Berger                 Time  flies...
mi...@aishdas.org               ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org   - R'  Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270)  514-1507

Arie Folger wrote:
> According to  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_palm we are dealing
> with an  important edible product of a tree, about which I saw no
> indication that  it bears any other commestble fruits. So does one make
> a ha'etz on it,  or if not, why not?

It's not a fruit of the tree, it's the tree  itself.  Therefore it's a
fruit of the ground.

-- 
Zev  Sero
z...@sero.name

Mar'eh makom:  http://berachot.org/Q+A/q2.html

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

----------  Original Message ----------
From: Arie Folger  <afol...@aishdas.org>
To: Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] What's the berakha on  hearts of palm?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:40:48  +0200

Rabosai,

According to  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_palm we are dealing
with an important  edible product of a tree, about which I saw no
indication that it bears any  other commestble fruits. So does one make
a ha'etz on it, or if not, why  not?

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On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 06:28:24PM -0400, Zev Sero  wrote:
>> Of course they are. Every bit of rabbinic legislation is a  repair.

> How so?  What was broken before?  For instance,  when Moshe
> established eight mishmarot, what was he repairing?   When he
> established the first bracha of benching, what was he  repairing?

The situation needing fixing.

...
> You're not  getting it; to establish the world, and to establish it in
> His  sovereignty are two different things...

The latter doesn't make sense.  The world is established. We're here, no?
We can then reestablish the world  under His Malkhus. This implies a
discontinuity between the current world and  the new establishment. But
then, there is no "re-" in the original  Hebrew.

It is a no less valid translation to say "repair the world using  His
Malkhus". This, BTW, does not imply a discontinuity, and in fact  fits
the general thrust of Aleinu that we are called upon now to praise  HQBH
and thereby bring about the change in  question.

...
>>> How about Koheles 12:9?

>>  What about it? Did he improve or establish those parables? For that
>>  matter, how do you establish a parable rather than write it? JPS
renders
>> the end of the pasuq as "set in order".

> He  composed them.  He caused them to be.  Like legal  enactments.

This is like your original claim. You're just asserting and  reasserting
your position, in the face of citations that show others saying  otherwise.
There is nothing to debate. JPS's translator obviously didn't  think it
meant "caused them to be". Why do you think that is? He was in  cahoots
with Genesius the BDB, Ben Yehudah and RSRH?

BTW, my off-list  emailer poited out that in fact "Tikanta Shabbos" with
a kaf is either rare  or non-existent. He checked siddurim from Germany
to Edot  haMizrach.

>>> "vesein chelkeinu besorasecha", at least, means  "in", not "through".
>>> As in "chavalim naflu li  ban`imim".

>> Then your list is all broken, in which "be-" shifts  meaning in the
middle.

> How do you translate it, then?  What is  this portion that we are asking
> to be given, and how can it be given by  means of the Torah?

And according to ben Zoma, a true ashir is one who is  sameiach with a
portion of what?

But again, this is tangential. You  haven't disagreed with the basic
notion that "be-" means "through the aegis  of" no less than "in", and
therefore haven't shown any reason to reject  "repair the world using
His Melukhah" for something that can be called  re-establishment but not
repair and despite any mention of chazarah or  sheinis...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger     A wise man is careful during the Purim  banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people  don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax:  (270) 514-1507                   - Rav Yisrael  Salanter

Hi All,
I have been discussing the idea of breastfeeding in public (with a cover,
of course) with my wife and we were wondering if anyone had some thoughts
on the subject.

Some things we have been thinking about:

Historically, woman always had to breastfeed at least somewhat in public, as
many people lived in 1 bedroom homes and women breastfed for far longer than
average today. Assuming the male psyche has changed recently and sexualized
breasts to a much greater extent, is that something we actually have to
be worried about, or can we just say "there should be nothing sexual about
nursing a baby and to heck with whatever people will be caused to think."?

What about when breastfeeding is necessary for the physical/emotional
comfort of a child? Nursing during take off and landing on an airplane,
for example. Nursing a toddler who hurt himself in the park.

What about a woman's desire to be a part of society? Retreating to one's
room to nurse, especially during the early month's of a baby's life, can
take 40 minutes and is often quite lonely.

How important is it to retreat to a private place to breastfeed when the
private option is uncomfortable or unsanitary? Why should we expect babies
to eat in bathrooms when we would find it gross to do so ourselves?

What does it mean to be "tznius"?

Does this mean refraining from doing anything that has the smallest
possibility of tempting someone to think inappropriate thoughts? If this
is the case, breastfeeding in public would always be problematic. Do we
need to live our lives worries about the lowest common denominator?

Or does it rather fall under the category of lifnei iver, in which case it
may be problematic to nurse at the shabbos table in front of other Jews,
but in the mall, where there are many other things to look at and most
people aren't Jewish anyway, it wouldn't be a problem.

Or does it mean not doing anything with the purpose of getting attention,
in which case, the nursing should be fine anywhere as the goal is to feed
the baby.

Kol Tuv,
Liron (and Adina)  Kopinsky
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