Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 148

Sun, 25 Jul 2010

• 1. Re: [Areivim] Veils and Terrorists (Ben Waxman)
• 2. post chatzot learning (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. kilayim (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Benching at a wedding (Benjamin Shaw)
• 5. Re: Kosher cabbage (Chana Luntz)
• 6. Re: Benching at a wedding (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Benching at a wedding (Joshua Meisner)
• 8. Re: Benching at a wedding (Gershon Dubin)
• 9. Re: ee itmar hachi itmar (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: The shape of the Menorah of the Temple (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: minhagei 9 av (Poppers, Michael)
• 12. zecher lechurban (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Re: minhagei 9 av (Rabbi Tal Zwecker)
• 14. Re: minhagei 9 av (Poppers, Michael)
• 15. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Ben Waxman)
• 16. Re: minhagei 9 av (Gershon Dubin)
• 17. Re: minhagei 9 av (Tal Moshe Zwecker)
• 18. The Gaon's Theorem (Prof. Levine)

Actually it is only aimed at the muslims. The French couldn't care less
about kippot, but they had to write the law so that it could be accepted.

Also the French chief rabbi had told Jews not to wear kippot in public. So
that being the case how can anyone claim yaharog v'lo ya'avor?

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel Israel" <d...@cornell.edu>
> I'm curious, has anyone heard a psak whether to consider this a
> yaharog v'lo ya'avor?  AIUI, the halacha is that any demand to violate
> even a minhag falls in this category, but only if it is done as an
> attack on Torah, not if it is done for other reasons.  Here the law is
> not aimed at Judaism specifically, but it is aimed at religion.

It seems to me that this would be of a piece with sitting in a normal 
chair 
 after chatzos...


-----   it would  seem to  me  that if there was a tzad leheter, the torah 
world  would have jumped on it long ago. i am not  aware  of  any 
community  permitting  , eg, daf yomi  in the afternoon .....


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<<The bigdei kehunah contained shatnez because the Torah commanded that they
be made of certain materials.  The same Torah also said that  personal
clothing may NOT contain shatnez.  Obviously if Hashem  Himself commanded that
the bigdei kehunah be made of wool and linen then it was  a mitzva to make
them that way -- not an "aveira lishma"!  Not any kind of  aveirah!

How could Hashem forbid something in one place that He mandates  in
another?  Well, getting back to the subject line of this thread --
"holy  or evil?"
-- I don't think you could possibly call shatnez "evil" since the K'G  wore
shatnez, but you could possibly say that it is an evil /act/ to
misappropriate something holy and use it for your own purposes or use
it in a  manner
that the Torah forbids.>>

There are indeed many case where the Torah mandates something that in
other circumstances
is prohibited. Thus it is a mitzva to perform Yibum while in general
it is prohibited
to marry one's brother's wife. In this case one would normally say
that marrying a sister-in-law
is indeed evil though it is permissible for yibum.

A more extreme case is schechita. A regular bird can be eaten only if
it is slaughtered
through a knife from the front of the bird. OTOH a sacrificial bird is
kosher only if
slaughtered by the fingernail of the cohen anf from the back of the
neck. In this case
the two are diametrically opposite. What is kosher in one case is a
neveliah in the
other case in both directions!
If one defines eating a neveliah as evil how can a cohen eat from such
a bird that
would normally be neveilah if it were a chullin bird.

Reminds me of some of our discussions of timtum halev. If this is
physical then how can
the same act be prohibted for a chullin bird but a mitzva for a
sacxrificial bird and similarly
in the other direction. If it is a metaphysical concept then of course
it depends on what
the Torah commanded

-- 
Eli Turkel

Hi,

 

When I go to a wedding I often want to leave before the offical benching
has started. I see other benching without organizing a Ziman. Is this
correct or should a Ziman be created?

 

Can one wash and not have intention to be included in the ziman so they can leave early?

 

Please included references to your answers.... 

 

Thanks, 

 

Ben

 
                                          
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In response to my posting, R' Michael Broyde sent me a copy of his article
on the subject, which he is happy to be shared with the Avodah readership.
You can see it at:

URL http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/rmjBroydeTerumah.pdf

Enjoy

Chana
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On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 02:31:07PM +0100, Benjamin Shaw wrote:
: When I go to a wedding I often want to leave before the offical benching
: has started. I see other benching without organizing a Ziman. Is this
: correct or should a Ziman be created?

First, welcome to the chevrah!

I think it's pretty open and shut, a zimun must be created if you
leave a zimun behind to fend for itself. When there are 11-19 people,
so that you get into a question of zimun with sheim and zimun without,
there it gets more complicated.

See the Qitzur SA 45:11 <http://www.kitzur.net/main.php?siman=45&;nk=1>,
you need 6 people before 3 can leave the zimun, so that you're leaving
the others a zimun.

Similarly the Arukh haShulchan OC 193:6-7
    <http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%
    A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%
    D7%97_%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%A7%D7%A6%D7%92#.D7.A1.D7.99.D7.9E.D7
    .9F_.D7.A7.D7.A6.D7.92_.D7.A1.D7.A2.D7.99.D7.A3_.D7.95>
    (shortened to <http://bit.ly/acrOBX>), who rules similarly, and
    saved me the effort of looking up the earlier sources.
Berakhos 45a <http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=87&;size=3>
SA OC 193:1
    <http://he.wikisourc
    e.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9F_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9A_%D7%
    90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%97_%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%A7%D7%A6%D7%92#.D7.A1
    .D7.A2.D7.99.D7.A3_.D7.90>
    (shortened to <http://bit.ly/bM9JpK>)


The question of leaving before Sheva Berakhos in particular is
non-trivial. It's discussed by the Tzitz Eliezer, who holds that the
prohibition is only in leaving between benching and the berakhos. The
Hanisuin keHilkhasam 14:84 (who I never heard of before) says that since
it's common to leave a wedding early, there is no obligation to stay
for Sheva Berakhos.

RMFeinstein in the IM holds that one may leave early if that is your
intent when washing, but it's better to stay. He also suggests that
a zimun made early at the wedding say the berakhah of "Asher Bara"
too. Personally, I never saw that done.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Benjamin Shaw <ben_sh...@hotmail.co.uk>wrote:

>  Hi,
>
> When I go to a wedding I often want to leave before the offical benching
> has started. I see other benching without organizing a Ziman. Is this
> correct or should a Ziman be created?
>
> Can one wash and not have intention to be included in the ziman so they can
> leave early?
>

RMF discusses this question in IM 1:56, and brings evidence that stating
explicitly that one does not intend to join the kevius of the other mesubin
is an acceptable means of removing the chiyuv zimun (and then brings down R'
Shlomo Kluger, who reaches the same conclusion from an entirely different
source), and hence recommends doing this as the method of choice of dealing
with the issue at chasunos.

Joshua Meisner
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<<RMFeinstein in the IM holds that one may leave early if that is your
intent when washing, but it's better to stay. He also suggests that
a zimun made early at the wedding say the berakhah of "Asher Bara"
too. Personally, I never saw that done.>>
Neither did I, but I did see an adam gadol bentch, bezimun shelosha,
saying shehasimcha bim'ono before leaving early.
Perhaps the problem with zimun beShem, as well as Asher Bara, is that
it's avsha milsa and could be upsetting to the baalei simcha.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
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On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 10:55:35AM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> That's my understanding. That they didn't take it for granted that
:> maamarim reached Bavel intact, and if something didn't make sense,
:> it was considered indication that perhaps it was repeated incorrectly.

: The 2 cases on shabbat 44 are a statement from Zeiri and then a statement from
: R. Yehuda in the name of Rav, both Babylonian amoraim.

You're correct, although it's possible R' Zeira was being quoted post-aliyah.

I think my basic answer holds. I just need to add that once they built a
system that was more reliant on sevara than quote, it spilled over into
other areas.

The Y-mi is altogether more precise in quoting. Sometimes entire segments
are repeated because not only will they make sure to quote the shitah verbatum,
they'll preserve the entire exchange. The system in Y-mi calls for such
precision and attention to detail.

The system in Bavel never developed to be as precise in quotes, which would
end up impacting all quote.

: shortly afterwards on 45a the gemara quotes a statement from R Cahana
: and R. Ashi
: to Rav - and I didnt see any comments on the the order of the generations

Academics would cite cases like this to prove that the shaqla vetarya
in shas is a pedagogical tool and not a claim of historicity. I'm not
sure what the "frum" answer is, but there doesn't seem to be anything
heretical about that one.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 01:23:51AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> But we both know his basis is the fact that every record of the menorah
>> (certainly in his day, and I would argue today as well) as it existed
>> shows curved arms.
>
> We certainly don't both know this.  Where did you get the idea?
> He says his basis is the Rambam; why doubt him?  He doesn't mention
> having seen any ancient pictures, so why do you assume he did?

I just meant that as a human being living in the world, he was far more
likely to have "common knowledge" as his baseline than to have approached
the Rambam with a clean slate.

Add to that his use of archeology to attempt identifying the kelei shir
used in the BHMQ.

So, someone with concordist approach to relating Torah to science, faced
with massive archeological evidence for one position, "just happens"
to read the Rambam so that he dovetails with that position?

I didn't take that possibility seriously.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

In Avodah V27n147#5, RTMZ wrote:
> ...However, we can also read ['mishenichnas Av mema'atin b'simcha' (as the month of Av 
approaches, we reduce our level of simcha)] another way: "When Av enters we
decrease, through joy." How do we diminish the pain and suffering which
comes when Av enters? Specifically through the simchah, through a positive
outlook and a 
joyous approach. That is why we have the minhag to make siyums during this time. <
How would such a "reader" 'read' the "mishenichnas Adar" phrase?  Thanks. 
All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

from daily halacha

However, a "zecher l'churban" unfinished wall area is required in
other public use buildings such as catering halls and hotels. Piskei
Tshuvos 560:6

Has anyone ever seen such a thing in a hotel or catering hall?

I have been in very few homes where there was a noticeable zecher lechurban

-- 
Eli Turkel

"When Adar enters we increase, through joy." How do we magnify the joy
and happiness which comes when Adar enters? Specifically through the
simchah, through a positive outlook and a
joyous approach.

You can read it the same way, the only difference is that on Av this
reading creates a novel reading and a novel approach a chiddush!
whereas on Adar it just serves to already reinforce the way we already
understand.


Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
Director Machon Be'er Mayim Chaim
Chassidic Classics in the English Language
www.chassidusonline.com
chassidusonl...@gmail.com
Phone: 972-2-992-1218 / Cell: 972-54-842-4725
VoIP: 516-320-6022 / eFax: 1-832-213-3135
join the mailing list here: http://groups.google.com/group/beermayimchaim
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Discuss Chassidus http://groups.google.com/group/torahchassidusdiscussion
Author Page https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B003VH9D48
LinkedIn: http://il.linkedin.com/in/rabbitalmoshe

On 7/24/10, Poppers, Michael <MPopp...@kayescholer.com> wrote:
> In Avodah V27n147#5, RTMZ wrote:
>> ...However, we can also read ['mishenichnas Av mema'atin b'simcha' (as the
>> month of Av
> approaches, we reduce our level of simcha)] another way: "When Av enters we
> decrease, through joy." How do we diminish the pain and suffering which
> comes when Av enters? Specifically through the simchah, through a positive
> outlook and a
> joyous approach. That is why we have the minhag to make siyums during this
> time. <
> How would such a "reader" 'read' the "mishenichnas Adar" phrase?  Thanks.
> All the best from
> -- Michael Poppers via BB pager

RTMZ replied to me
> on Adar ["When Adar enters..."] just serves to already reinforce the way we already understand <
So what, then, was the hava amina such that the "mishenichnas Adar" phrase
needed to be said? or would the approach you've publicized suggest that it
was said merely because the chiddush of "mishenichnas Av" would follow?
Thanks. 

Gut Voch/Shavua Tov and all the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

I doubt that it was really an issue. How much trade was going on from such a
poor place and even if there were Eretz Yisrael oranges sold in Cairo or
Bagdad, most of the farmers were Arabs.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chana Luntz" <Ch...@Kolsassoon.org.uk>
>
 (I imagine this was a halacha l'ma'ase
> question for far more Sephardim than it was for Ashkenazim - given that
> exporting produce as far as Ashkenaz in days gone by was probably pretty
> rare, while to the lands inhabited by Sephardim was probably reasonable
> common).

<<or would the approach you've publicized suggest that it was said merely
because the chiddush of "mishenichnas Av" would follow?>> 

 It's the opposite logic in the Gemara, actually.   The Mishna in Taanis
(26b) says mishenichnas Av mema'atim besimcha, whereupon the Gemara (29a)
says, keshem that mishenichnas Av mema'atim besimcha, kach mishenichnas
Adar marbim besimcha.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com


 
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A Chassidic reading of the Gemarra is not peshat, its not meant as peshat, 
just as when the Baalei Tosfos or the Rosh in their commentaries on Chumash 
offer gematrias and notrikon meanings for verses, and just as the Baal 
HaTurim's reading of Mesoras all these Derushim and "plays on words" read 
back into verses of the Torah and quotes of Chazal are ways for us to read 
into the text oral teachings and ideas.

So asking me kashas on how this jibes with peshat in the sugya or how this 
chidush works with another sugya misses the point, a Derush or Remez need 
not agree with Peshat in fact it may fly in the face of it and contradict 
it. Ayn Mashivin Al HaDerush style.

As I ended my original post, the great chassidic rebbes who were masters of 
the Niglah as well as Nistar supported this method of reading the text, and 
this minhag is based on their teachings and theirs is the path we follow. 
If that is not your derech so be it, Ayin Panim LaTorah and Elu vaElu.

I was more responding against the idea that this is merely a fulfillment of 
a taava to eat meat and drink wine.
Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
Director Machon Be'er Mayim Chaim
Chassidic Classics in the English Language
www.chassidusonline.com
chassidusonl...@gmail.com
Phone: 972-2-992-1218 / Cell: 972-54-842-4725
VoIP: 516-320-6022 / eFax: 1-832-213-3135
join the mailing list here: http://groups.google.com/group/beermayimchaim
Noam Elimelech, Kedushas Levi, Pirkei Avos more!
Discuss Chassidus http://groups.google.com/group/torahchassidusdiscussion
Author Page https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B003VH9D48
LinkedIn: http://il.linkedin.com/in/rabbitalmoshe
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
To: <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Cc: <tal.zwec...@gmail.com>; <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Avodah] minhagei 9 av


> <<or would the approach you've publicized suggest that it was said merely
> because the chiddush of "mishenichnas Av" would follow?>>
>
> It's the opposite logic in the Gemara, actually.   The Mishna in Taanis
> (26b) says mishenichnas Av mema'atim besimcha, whereupon the Gemara (29a)
> says, keshem that mishenichnas Av mema'atim besimcha, kach mishenichnas
> Adar marbim besimcha.
>
> Gershon
> gershon.du...@juno.com
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> TODAY: iPads for $123.74?
> ALERT: iPads are being auctioned for 95% off today!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c4c327cb030a66c63m06vuc 

Until I came across this I was not aware that there was something 
called the Gaon's Theorem.

Note that the Gaon apparently felt that knowledge of mathematics was 
important, because "Gaon was
putting the notes and explanations in book form to preserve them for 
generations to come.


I do not understand why the Gaon's sefer Ayil Meshulash is not used 
as a mathematics text during the last year of math in Yeshiva High 
Schools.  Perhaps it is because it would be most difficult to find 
someone who could teach it. >:-} YL

The following is from 
http://www2.hmc.edu/www_common/hmnj/journal/26/pdf/articles/26.pdf

UNIQUE TOPICS

Some extremely interesting topics arose in this course
following the students' extensive searching for knowledge
sources. Before I compiled the course, I discovered
the book Ayil Meshulash (Stature of the Triangle)
(1960), written in the 19th century by a student of the
Jewish Torah scholar the Vilna Gaon (Genius from
Vilna). It was based upon notes found after the Gaon's
death, that derived from his oral mathematics teaching.
In this book, subtitled "On the wisdom of triangles
and geometry and some rules of qualities and algebra
author Shmuel Lukenik notes that the Gaon was
putting the notes and explanations in book form to
preserve them for generations to come.

The Vilna Gaon, or Rabbi Eliyahu was a master of
Torah, Talmud, Jewish philosophy, Halacha (Jewish
religious law), and Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism). The
bulk of his written work concerns corrections and
emendations of Talmudic texts, and interpretations of
the Shulchan Aruch (code of Jewish law). In the academic
field, the Vilna Gaon wrote on geography (The
Form of the Earth) and grammar (Eliyahu Grammar).
He was also interested in music, claiming that most
of the arguments of the Torah would be incomprehensible
without it (On-line Resources, 2001). According
to some sources, the Vilna Gaon is the author of
"The Gaon's Theorem," a principle of the mathematics
of infinity (Feldman, A., 1999). Other sources
claimed that this theorem was called "Kramer's Theorem,"
Kramer being the Vilna Gaon's family name.
Gerver (1993), however, stated that this supposition
was unlikely, as the author of this article did not
present proof for these two opinions.

After reading Ayil Meshulash, I had the idea of including
in the course Jewish and Islamic sources of
mathematics history and integrating them in mathematics
teaching. The result was a collection of materials
included in a chapter entitled "Mathematics in
Judaism and Islam," unique to this course. Every year,
a number of student pairs, both heterogeneous (Jewish
and Bedouin) or homogeneous, work on this chapter.

Ayil Hameshulash was frequently chosen for investigation
by these students, as it is both a mathematical
work including mathematical explanations and geometrical
definitions, theorems, and proofs as well as
selected topics in algebra, and an historical document.
Although the book was written 200 years ago, it still
contains explanations that cannot be found today in
any other mathematical work. The students in the
course maintain that this book offers better explanations
than those used today, and often say that they
find it exciting to study such a venerable work. In one
of the lectures, the students compared the Vilna Gaon's
presentation of the right-angle triangle with that of
Israeli mathematics teacher Benny Goren in his book
Plane Geometry - a text currently in wide use in Israeli
schools. Most of the students in the class announced
that they would adopt the former method
in teaching this topic in their classes.


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