Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 145

Wed, 21 Jul 2010

• 1. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Prof. Levine)
• 3. minhagei 9 av (Tal Moshe Zwecker)
• 4. Re: minhagei 9 av (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Liron Kopinsky)
• 6. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: minhagei 9 av (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Gershon Dubin)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Ben Waxman)
• 13. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: [Areivim] kosher cabbage (Prof. Levine)
• 16. Re: minhagei 9 av (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: minhagei 9 av (Micha Berger)

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 02:39:28PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> My point was that if teruma was already taken, then separating teruma a 
> second time does not seem to me to be a mitzva...

I, OTOH, believe it would be a mitzvah derabbanan of removing demai,
and thus require a berakhah. I am wondering why Ben's LOR would call
it a safeiq, since even a mi'ut possibility that another Jew gave you
tevel creates a chiyuv derabbanan.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

[The following are four emails originally submitted to Areivim, but
bounced here by RYL in response to mod request. -micha]

At 01:24 PM 7/21/2010, Ben Waxman wrote:
>This isn't rocket science. If you know that the tomato is tevel then
>you make a bracha. If you don't know with 100% certainty, you don't.

And how is one supposed to know with certainty anything about the status
of fruits and vegetables that are exported to the US?

Micha and others told me that one can buy some Israeli produce in
Costco. When you take terumos and meiseros, how do you know if you
should or should not make a brocha. And, if you do not make a brocha,
then this entire business of trying to tie a Mitzvah to making a brocha
seems to fall away in this case.

YL

At 01:24 PM 7/21/2010, Ben Waxman wrote:
>This isn't rocket science. If you know that the tomato is tevel then 
>you make a bracha. If you don't know with 100% certainty, you don't.

And how is one supposed to know with certainty anything about the 
status of fruits and vegetables that are exported to the US?

Micha and others told me that one can buy some Israeli produce in 
Costco. When you take terumos and meiseros, how do you know if you 
should or should not make a brocha. And, if you do not make a brocha, 
then this entire business of trying to tie a Mitzvah to making a 
brocha seems to fall away in this case.

YL

[Email #2. -micha]

At 01:33 PM 7/21/2010, Ben Waxman wrote:
>However a mitzva can be done without a bracha. If someone puts on
>tefillin without making a bracha, he has fulfilled the mitzva of
>putting on tefillin. If you seperate terumah without making a
>bracha, you have fulfilled the mitzva.

Even if Terumah was already taken?

YL

[Email #3. -micha]

At 01:07 PM 7/21/2010, Micha Berger wrote:
>> Even if Terumah was already taken?

>Of course. Berakhos aren't me'aqvos.

My point was that if teruma was already taken, then separating teruma a
second time does not seem to me to be a mitzva. Thus, in those cases
where one is in doubt and teruma was indeed already taken, it seems
to me that one has not done any sort of mitzvah by separating teruma a
second time.

Thus, if one buys Israeli produce that is exported to America, it seems
that one should not make a bracha and that one may not even fulfill
a mitzva by taking teruma without making a bracha, since teruma may
already have been taken.

YL

[Email #4. -micha]

At 12:45 PM 7/21/2010, Ben Waxman wrote:
>In practical terms, anything sold in the shuk, even stuff sold is stalls
>without a heksher, has probably been tithed already. So the question is more
>theoretical than real. I had situations where something was bought, erev
>Shabbat, from places without a teudah and of course we forgot to take
>terumah. My posek told me that b'dievid we could eat it.

So how can you make a brocha given that it is a sofek?

And this may be why Rav Schwab said what he said, namely, that it is
not clear if one should or should not make a brocha on fruits and
vegetables that are exported to the US.

YL

At 12:45 PM 7/21/2010, Ben Waxman wrote:
>In practical terms, anything sold in the shuk, even stuff sold is stalls
>without a heksher, has probably been tithed already. So the question is more
>theoretical than real. I had situations where something was bought, erev
>Shabbat, from places without a teudah and of course we forgot to take
>terumah. My posek told me that b'dievid we could eat it.

So how can you make a brocha given that it is a safek?

And this may be why Rav Schwab said what he said, namely, that it is 
not clear if one should or should not make a brocha on fruits and 
vegetables that are exported to the US.

YL

Most chassidim do make siyumim during the 9 days if possible in order to eat meat and drink wine and lessen the spirit of morning

Berelach are like little thorns or barbs, its a well known antic that I
have heard about from yester year but have never seen anyone practice,
there were many antics and pranks done including hoisting others up by a
net, they once caught a Rebbe (I believe it was the holy Rizhiner) like
this in the net and as he dangled there the chassidim stood dumbfounded and
horrified and he said "Ribbono Shel Olam if your children dont know how to
properly observe Your "yomtov" take it away from them!"

Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
Director Machon Be'er Mayim Chaim
Chassidic Classics in the English Language
www.chassidusonline.com
chassidusonl...@gmail.com
Phone: 972-2-992-1218 / Cell: 972-54-842-4725
VoIP: 516-320-6022 / eFax: 1-832-213-3135
join the mailing list here: http://groups.google.com/group/beermayimchaim 
Noam Elimelech, Kedushas Levi, Pirkei Avos more!
Discuss Chassidus http://groups.google.com/group/torahchassidusdiscussion
Author Page https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B003VH9D48
LinkedIn: http://il.linkedin.com/in/rabbitalmoshe
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Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 01:50:49PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Beans?!  Where do beans come from?  The minhag is to throw "berelach"
>> (I don't know the English name); perhaps someone misread this as
>> "beblach"!
 
> Which is weird, because the whole point is the name. It's a reference
> to Eikhah 3:10, "Dov oreiv hu li..." Dov = ber, thus throwing berelach
> (which could be taken as "little bears") as a reminder of an enemy
> bursting from ambush?

According to the article the OP linked, that's unlikely to be the
original reason for the minhag.  Name-based explanations usually come
after the fact, to explain established minhagim.


> As for the translation: it's a seed not that different than an acorn or
> filbert, no?

It has thorns, and catches in your clothes or hair. 

 
>>> and who make  siyumim daily [including  9 av to my knowledge]
>> This is a modern minhag L, introduced by the LR in the late '70s
>> or early '80s.  On 9 Av the siyum is on Moed Katan, which is one of
>> the gemaras one may learn on that day. 
 
> In Camp Munk, they made sure to have one night without a siyum.

Why?

> R' Yechiel Aryeh ("Michael") Munk z"l [...] justified the frequent use
> of siyumim to offer fleishig dinners.

Oh.  AFAIK one can't participate in such a seudah unless one would have
done so even had it not been the 9 days.  At any rate, L does not use
these siyumim as a way to eat meat (and certainly not on 9 Av!).
The only times I've ever seen meat eaten in L during the 9 days is at
a bris or pidyon haben.

(This year there was a bris at my shul on Rosh Chodesh Av.  It was in
the early evening, because they baby's first cousin, who is less than
an hour older and lives 250 miles away, had *his* bris in the morning.)

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

> I might be remembering incorrectly, but I think I just saw in the Piskei
>> Chazon Ish (which can be found at the back of some Kitzur Shulchan Aruchs
>> [Or is it Kitzurei Shulchan Aruch?]) that any food from EY is chayav in
>> all T/M/Orlah etc. even if the fruit itself is outside the land currently.
>>
>
> I was indeed remembering vastly incorrectly - the psak I saw (in the
shulchan aruch not the KSA) stated that for fruits grown in EY, when saying
Al HaEtz afterwards you should say "Al Haaretz v'Al Peiroteha" regardless of
where they are being eaten.

This adds nothing to the orlah discussion, but should be nogeah when eating
Israeli Olives.

Kol Tuv,
Liron
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Prof. Levine wrote:
 
> Thus, if one buys Israeli produce that is exported to America, it seems
> that one should not make a bracha and that one may not even fulfill
> a mitzva by taking teruma without making a bracha, since teruma may
> already have been taken.

AFAIK terumos and maasros are *never* taken from exported produce.  Thus
this isn't even demai, it's vadai tevel.  Maybe there's enough of a safek
to make it advisable not to say a bracha (e.g. maybe the farmer who grew
it was frum, and fixed it before he sold it to the wholesaler so as not
to be machshil people).

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

That is not what I was told at all. I was once at a knesses on the subject
and a senior kashrut supervisor stated that the rabbinate tries to take
ma'aser on everything going out, but for reasons which he didn't explain, it
isn't always done. Therefore any buying Israeli fruit should take ma'aser,
but it is only a safek.

Selling vadai tevel, not even trying, would be a huge mikshal l'fnei
ha-iver.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name>
>
> AFAIK terumos and maasros are *never* taken from exported produce.  Thus
> this isn't even demai, it's vadai tevel.  Maybe there's enough of a safek
> to make it advisable not to say a bracha (e.g. maybe the farmer who grew
> it was frum, and fixed it before he sold it to the wholesaler so as not
> to be machshil people).

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 03:08:04PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> In Camp Munk, they made sure to have one night without a siyum.

> Why?

To have the unmodified minhag at least once. I think it's similar
reasoning as why REMT has the Elizabeth eruv down once a year -- otherwise
people would forget the original.

>> R' Yechiel Aryeh ("Michael") Munk z"l [...] justified the frequent use
>> of siyumim to offer fleishig dinners.

> Oh.  AFAIK one can't participate in such a seudah unless one would have
> done so even had it not been the 9 days....

Not a problem in camp.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
mi...@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rav Yisrael Salanter

Liron Kopinsky wrote:

> I was indeed remembering vastly incorrectly - the psak I saw (in the 
> shulchan aruch not the KSA) stated that for fruits grown in EY, when 
> saying Al HaEtz afterwards you should say "Al Haaretz v'Al Peiroteha" 
> regardless of where they are being eaten.
> 
> This adds nothing to the orlah discussion, but should be nogeah when 
> eating Israeli Olives.

And when drinking Israeli wine.  (I rarely remember this at the time,
and BH it's not me'akev, but I really should try to.)   But not when
eating Israeli baked goods, because most wheat in Israel is imported.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> I, OTOH, believe it would be a mitzvah derabbanan of removing demai,
> and thus require a berakhah. I am wondering why Ben's LOR would call
> it a safeiq, since even a mi'ut possibility that another Jew gave you
> tevel creates a chiyuv derabbanan.

Demai does NOT require a beracha because rov amei ha'aretz me'asrim.
So your sevara is good but does not apply in this instance. Bar Ilan is
your friend <g>.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 06:58:23PM +0000, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: Demai does NOT require a beracha because rov amei ha'aretz me'asrim.

That doesn't answer my question.

Without the gezeira, demai would be mutar, because it's being chosheid
for a mi'ut. As you note. (If it weren't a mi'ut, demai would be pointless
as such produce would already be assur as a safeiq deOraisa lehachmir.)

Then chazal made the concept of demai, a taqanah that assur-ed the mi'ut.
So, removing terumah from demai is a qiyum of a derabbanan. Why does
neir Chanukah deserve a berakhah more than repairing demai does?

I realize I inconistently called demai a gezeira and a taqanah. I'm
leaving it in as an excuse to add this clarification. A gezeira is
something that protects us from violating a din deOraisa through habit
or accident. A taqanah is a law made along the same lines as Chazal's
understanding of the intent of the deOraisa. (Which, RMS should note,
requires their determining some aspect of the values implied by the
original mitzvah.)

Demai is therefore a likely a gezeira.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

[Same Areivim-bounced converation as before, the other side of the
discussion. Sorry I messed up the interleaving. -micha]

From: Prof. Levine 
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 5:49 PM
> I knew that this is what the term "kivush ha'aretz" means. However,
> in what way do you see this going on today? The boundaries of EY are
> set. Some land was taken away with the Gush Katif business. Do you see
> the Israeli army taking this area back? Does Israel have expansionist
> plans that I have not heard of?

Everytime someone expands/builds their home, has a child, starts a
business, runs a half marathon (well maybe not this one), he is taking
part in the kivush.

The Ramban in Mitzva 4, in his list of mitzvot which the Rambam does
not list, states clearly that the mitzva is to conquer AND settle the
land. We are not to leave the Land in the hands of goyim or let it simply
be a wasteland. Conquering the land is of course part of the mitzva,
it is a milchemet mitzva.

But the mitzva of kivush ha-aretz is a mitzva which is incumbent on
everyone. Since not everyone goes to the army, therefore there must be
aspects to the mtizva, such as simply living here.

[Email #2. micha]

From: Prof. Levine 
> So how can you make a brocha given that it is a sofeik?  

> And this may be why Rav Schwab said what he said, namely, that it
> is not clear if one should or should not make a brocha on fruits and
> vegetables that are exported to the US.

I don't. I only make a bracha on stuff from my garden, where I have no
doubt what so ever that the produce is tevel. Any tithing that I do on
produce from the shuk is done without a bracha.

This isn't rocket science. If you know that the tomato is tevel then
you make a bracha. If you don't know with 100% certainty, you don't.

[Email #3. -micha]

From: Prof. Levine 
> And how is one supposed to know with certainty anything about the status
> of fruits and vegetables that are exported to the US?

> Micha and others told me that one can buy some Israeli produce in
> Costco. When you take terumos and meiseros, how do you know if you
> should or should not make a brocha. And, if you do not make a brocha,
> then this entire business of trying to tie a Mitzvah to making a brocha
> seems to fall away in this case.

You don't know, so you don't make a bracha.

However a mitzva can be done without a bracha. If someone puts on tefillin
without making a bracha, he has fulfilled the mitzva of putting on
tefillin. If you seperate terumah without making a bracha, you have
fulfilled the mitzva.

Ben

At 03:14 PM 7/21/2010, Zev Sero wrote:
> Thus, if one buys Israeli produce that is exported to America, it seems
> that one should not make a bracha and that one may not even fulfill
> a mitzva by taking teruma without making a bracha, since teruma may
> already have been taken.

This has been dealt with before on Avodah. See 
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol16/v16n133.shtml#07

There, Chana Luntz wrote "Not surprisingly therefore Rav Ovadiah Yosef
holds in that the obligation to tithe today even in eretz yisroel is
d'rabbanan (see Yabiat Omer chelek 6 Yoreh Deah siman 28."

Prof. Levine wrote:
> This has been dealt with before on Avodah. See 
> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol16/v16n133.shtml#07 
> There, Chana Luntz wrote "
> Not surprisingly therefore Rav Ovadiah Yosef holds in that the obligation
> to tithe today even in eretz yisroel is d'rabbanan (see Yabiat Omer
> chelek 6 Yoreh Deah siman 28."

I fail to see the relevance.  What difference does it make whether it's
tevel de'oraisa or derabbanan?  The fact remains that it's vadai (or
almost vadai) tevel.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

At 03:30 PM 7/21/2010, Zev Sero wrote:
>I fail to see the relevance.  What difference does it make whether it's
>tevel de'oraisa or derabbanan?  The fact remains that it's vadai (or
>almost vadai) tevel.

This is only one sentence in what she wrote, which I found surprising,
so I included it. I believe that there is other information in what she
wrote that is most relevant.

Tal Moshe Zwecker wrote:
> Most chassidim do make siyumim during the 9 days if possible in order to 
> eat meat and drink wine and lessen the spirit of morning

I didn't know this.  As I wrote earlier, in L siyumim are made (at least
for the last 30 years or so) but they are not used as an excuse for meat
and wine.

> Berelach are like little thorns or barbs, its a well known antic that I 
> have heard about from yester year but have never seen anyone practice,

I have seen it.  They look a bit like barbed acorns.  I don't know the
English name for them.
 
> there were many antics and pranks done including hoisting others up by a 
> net, they once caught a Rebbe (I believe it was the holy Rizhiner) like 
> this in the net and as he dangled there the chassidim stood dumbfounded 
> and horrified and he said "Ribbono Shel Olam if your children dont know 
> how to properly observe Your "yomtov" take it away from them!"

Yes, it was the Rizhiner.

[EMail #2. -micha]

Micha Berger wrote:
>>> In Camp Munk, they made sure to have one night without a siyum.
 
>> Why?

> To have the unmodified minhag at least once. I think it's similar
> reasoning as why REMT has the Elizabeth eruv down once a year -- otherwise
> people would forget the original.

But why not make the siyum and *not* eat meat?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 04:03:52PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> To have the unmodified minhag at least once. I think it's similar
>> reasoning as why REMT has the Elizabeth eruv down once a year -- otherwise
>> people would forget the original.

> But why not make the siyum and *not* eat meat?

Thinking out loud... Leshitaso, wouldn't that imply a diminution of
sharing in that night's mesayeim's simchah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


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