Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 110

Mon, 03 May 2010

• 1. Ownership ? (Rich, Joel)
• 2. "The Great Miracle of the Volcano Shutdown " (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 3. MORE ON WHAT CONSTITUTES CHILLUL HASHEM (Richard Wolberg)
• 4. Re: 2 fridgies (Jonathan Baker)
• 5. Re: 2 fridgies (T6...@aol.com)
• 6. Translating the word Inyan (Zvi Lampel)
• 7. Re: Ownership ? (Zev Sero)
• 8. Business Halacha - Auto Lease (Henry Topas)
• 9. Yissachar/Zevulun (Yitzchok Levine)
• 10. More on What Constitutes Chillul Hashem? (Prof. Levine)
• 11. More on what constitutes chilul hashem (Beth & David Cohen)
• 12. Re: Ownership ? (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: Yissachar/Zevulun (Moshe Y. Gluck)

Reuven lends shimon a glass vase and tells him he can keep it as long as he
wants and if by some chance he doesn't return it not to worry because
Reuven is mochel in advance for that possibility.  On his way home, shimon
stops at the light where levi, busy talking on his self phone, knocks
shimon over and the vase breaks. To whom, if anyone, does levi pay the
value of the vase, and why?
KT
Joel Rich
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Below is a story and a response. The response is not mine, but it is
so good I thought it worth sharing.


The Great Miracle of the Volcano Shutdown 
Sunday, April 25, 2010
http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2010/04/great-mira
cle-of-volcano-shutdown.html

A universal crisis, millions of people stranded, billions of dollars
lost, and one volcanic eruption in Iceland causes chaos across the
European continent. Within all this tumult, one Jew merits a smile from
the Creator of the World, as if G-d was whispering to him - My son, the
whole world was not created except for you ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??????.

The story begins with a young Yeshiva student, an 18 year old Yerushalmi,
who was mortally ill with fulminate hepatic failure. With little
hope of receiving a liver transplant in Israel, Rav Firer sought to
send the boy on an emergency flight to Brussels, the world center of
liver transplants. The only problem however, is that Brussels under no
circumstances transplants non-EU patients, in order to save the scanty
supply of livers for Europeans. Nevertheless, it was decided to send
him to Brussels despite this knowledge.

The young student had no choice but to include his name on the long
waiting list for a liver transplant. In the meantime, he tried to
maintain his learning despite the illness, consciously aware that it
would takes weeks, months, and even years till he will be able to be
given a new liver. Many patients were on the waiting list, and his name
was somewhere on the bottom... And when his turn would finally arrive,
it had to completely match his blood type and other medical criteria. If
not a perfect match, he'd need to continue waiting ... for a miracle.

However, ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?' ??? ???? Many thoughts in a
man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of H-Shem shall stand. H-Shem
had a different plan for this young Yeshiva student and H-Shem's loyal
servants produced avalanches of hot ash, rock and gas, causing Europe to
completely shut down its skies into a no-fly zone. It was during this
time that a young Yerushalmi was sitting in the yeshiva learning Torah
in the capital of Belgium.

During the course of the shut-down airspace above Europe, a person died
in the hospital in the capital of Belgium, a person who had agreed to
donate his liver to anyone that might need it. Astonishingly, a liver
that was perfectly parametric for our young Yeshiva student.

Health authorities in Belgium began searching the liver transplant
waiting list, but `unfortunately' not even one patient was able to
fly into Belgium for the healthy liver due to the volcanic eruption.
As they advanced further on the waiting list, they reached the young
Yeshiva student, but it was not offered to him due to his lack of
citizenship. As the clock closed in on the deadline for time within
which the liver would still be viable, however, no one else was able
to arrive in Belgium for the transplant except this young Yerushalmi.
With clear Divine Intervention, this budding talmid chacham received
the liver and is now recovering from surgery.

The enormity of this miracle was even greater after the successful
transplant. The doctors said that the young student's liver was very
deteriorated and diseased, and it was a matter of days before it would
have stopped functioning completely. The doctors unanimously believe
that if he had had to continue waiting for a transplant, he would not
have survived.

Who can understand the Ways of HKB"H?


My response:

I have a real problem with these stories in general, and I guess this
case really underscores why. Just imagine the other stories that are not
being circulated on the internet. Young mother/child/groom/ whoever on
waiting list, desperate for transplant, the right liver finally available
and s/he finally on top of the list - but could not fly to Belgium due
to the volcano and, r"l, passed away. I don't know what happened to whom
regarding this liver, but neither do those circulating this story know
whose heart could be breaking as they read it. Hashem's ways are indeed
mysterious and above our logical comprehension systems. But let's not
pretend that the hashgacha always works out for the apparent good of
everyone affected.

I happen to think we in our generation, and especially from an
educational standpoint our young people, are more in need of examples
of tziduk hadin and moving forward in life despite disappointment,
loss and suffering, than we are in need of further gushes of chicken
soup for our already entitlement-ridden souls. Because this genre has
become so ubiquitous, and we are encouraging people to identify (as if
they could!) `hashgacha pratis' in their lives, I fear we are weakening
rather than strengthening the kind of emuna needed to make it through the
real lives most of us lead, the ones in which people die, illness hurts,
and hopes are dashed, at least sometimes. I find these kinds of stories
dangerous, not only because they promote magical thinking and reinforce
theological beliefs of dubious basis in authoritative Jewish sources,
but because they reinforce some sort of fantasy that we can ignore
the gemara about kesheim shemevarchin al hatov etc. When young people
raised on this intellectual diet of gruel actually encounter challenges
in life, will they have the keilim, and the examples, to integrate them
into their mindset and avodas Hashem? Will they conclude, consciously
or unconsciously, that they are unworthy because miracles didn't happen
for them? Will they feel cheated out of the hashgacha protis they have
been guaranteed and end up angry at their religion r"l?

I don't know, I just feel sometimes we in the frum community live
in a haze of wishful thinking we have allowed and sometimes even
encouraged. I don't mean to be a downer but to say, let's recognize
and fix our problems rather than distracting ourselves from them. For
every heartwarming story circulated I'd like to see at least one story
that calls us to action, and I mean action to take responsibility for
our dysfunctionalities. If only the energy put into the campaign to
save Shalom Rubashkin from being overly punished for his crimes could
be equally put into a campaign to rid ourselves of corruption and fraud
and teach the importance of transparency, integrity, and accountability.
I am seriously considering contacting the guy who started the Chofetz
Chaim Heritage Foundation and encouraging him to start a new prong of
the movement aimed towards Emes and Yashrus.

Prof. Levine wrote:
> At 04:33 PM 4/28/2010, Zev Sero wrote:
>>  But in most countries the average person breaks the law
>> himself as often as he finds convenient, and certainly doesn't look
>> down on others just for doing things that are illegal.
> 
> Can you point to any studies that back up these assertions?

Studies?  Just look around you.  What normal American thinks it's wrong
to jaywalk, or to get a parking ticket, or to smoke a joint, or to bet
on a game?  What normal American would think less of someone for doing so?
If you need a study for that, there's something very wrong.

The above reasoning "...Just look around you." etc. is an invalid syllogism.
It is purely subjective and not based on legitimate research which has academic
credentials. To say "If you need a study for that, there's something very wrong." 
merely indicates a lack of understanding of what research is -- namely: The systematic
investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach
new conclusions. Research is not a hit and miss instrument where you think you've got
all the answers because of intuitive observation. To say "Just look around you" reminds 
me of one observer who said that milk was the cause of criminal behavior. When asked
how he came to that conclusion, he responded, "Just look at all the prisons. Ninety-nine
percent of everyone incarcerated drank milk as a child."  (Another example of an invalid
syllogism).

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From: Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com>
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 12:11 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Unless one puts cheese on top of meat - highly unlikely- there is not
> > much of a problem with a fridge.
 
> That's not what the Remo in YD 95:6 seems to say.
 
> SA 95:6: One may place a jug of milk next to one of meat inside a box.
> Remo: And there are those who are stringent Lechatchila, and it's good
> to be stringent Lechactchila in a when possible.
 
> R' Zev Sero commented:
 
> > But that's "next to"; do you not have separate shelves in the fridge
> > for milchigs and fleishigs?
 
> No we don't; never occurred to me that it was needed - and I've never
> seen anybody do it. Is that your custom?

I wouldn't be surprised.

R' Yosef Wikler of "Kashrus Magazine" advised, when we learned that halacha,
that one should be stringent and, if putting a pot 
into the fridge, that one put a paper towel under it, so it's not strictly
speaking "on the same shelf as" the kli with the other substance in it.
Like why we use placemats, so I could be eating a cheese sandwich, and
you could be eating a meat sandwich, and they're not "oleh al hashulchan"
together.
 
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 7:36 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Agreed when they are in one box again unlikely. A fridge is not a box.
 
> That may be even worse, since in 95:5 even the SA forbids putting meat
> next to milk. In a box it's "safer" since you'll be more careful, so
> the SA is more lenient.

In 95:5, the SA isn't talking about meat and milk, he's talking about
(HGH: open) containers: 1) salt fish boiled in milk, and 2) salt or vinegar.

So there's a real chance of spillage, and of making the salt milchig.
Not talking about meat/milk in the fridge, where they're presumably 
covered.  As Shach and Taz both comment, the Mechaber's point is about
the salt vs. vinegar in the second container, in salt the fish/milk are
not batel, because it's dry, while in vinegar, the milk would be batel
in 60, if there was 60 against the fish that fell in.
 
--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjba...@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

From: Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com>
> But that's  "next to"; do you not have separate shelves in the fridge
> for milchigs  and fleishigs?

No we don't; never occurred to me that it was needed --  and I've never
seen anybody do it. Is that your custom?

But maybe it's  a good idea. However, the milk could still spill onto
the meat below (or vice  versa) which seems to be more than "a problem"
-- it may be actually  forbidden to live with this constant possibility.


--  Danny
 

>>>>>
 
I actually once had a situation where milk leaked from a container on one  
shelf onto chicken in a pan on the shelf below it.  Ever since then I have  
taken two precautions that I recommend to everyone:  One, I keep the milk  
in the door or if there isn't room, I make sure there is nothing on the  
shelf under the milk that could pose a problem.  If necessary I  put a plastic 
plate or a towel under the milk bottle in case it  leaks.  Two, I never leave 
anything in the fridge uncovered or too-loosely  covered.
 
--Toby Katz
==========




--------------------  





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Translating the word Inyan

I've often been frustrated trying to translate the word ''inyan'' into 
English. The usual translations, ''matter'' or ''subject'' or even 
''concern'' often sound stiff in English and do not get across the real 
Hebrew meaning and feel. It just hit me this past Shabbos that the 
English equivalent is often the word, ''point.'' ''The inyan is...,'' 
translates: ''the point is...'' ''There is an inyan to do 
such-and-such,'' translates, ''There is a point to do such-and-such.'' 
Then again, sometimes the best translation is simply the word, 
''thing.'' ''There is no such inyan'' translates, ''There is no such 
thing.'' ''There is an inyan of darkei shalom'' translates, ''There is a 
thing about living in harmony.'' ''That's another inyan'' translates, 
''That is something else (or: another story)'' I just thought I'd make 
of note of this, for those like me interested in such inyanim---or those 
interested in such things.

PS: I'm using Ariel font and typing two single-quotation marks rather 
than double-quotation marks, hoping they don't come across as question 
marks. If they do, I would appreciate advice.

Zvi Lampel

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Rich, Joel wrote:
> Reuven lends shimon a glass vase and tells him he can keep it as long as 
> he wants and if by some chance he doesn't return it not to worry because 
> Reuven is mochel in advance for that possibility.  On his way home, 
> shimon stops at the light where levi, busy talking on his self phone, 
> knocks shimon over and the vase breaks. To whom, if anyone, does levi 
> pay the value of the vase, and why?

Um, this seems extremely simple.  Ask yourself another question, and it
will become blindingly obvious:  Suppose Shimon heads straight for the
market and sells the vase.  Is he a thief?  Of course he is.  Reuven
very clearly did *not* give up ownership of the vase.  He fully expects
that when Shimon no longer needs it, if it's still in usable condition,
it will be returned.  And if, one day, he suddenly finds himself in need
of it, he will have no hesitation in asking Shimon to return it.  So
there's no question that Levi owes the money to Reuven, not to Shimon.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Shavua Tov,

 

Case:

 

Reuven leases a car from Shimon's leasing company.

 

The lease stipulates that upon the end of the lease term, the vehicle
must have a value of $30,000.

 

The lease does not state by what standard such value is to be
ascertained, whether by wholesale, retail, blue book or any other
guidance.

 

The lease is now over and Shimon claims that the vehicle is now only
worth $20,000.  Reuven brings multiple classified ads showing that the
same vehicle in the same condition now sells in private transactions for
the stipulated $30,000.

 

The parties agree to go to a din Torah.

 

I wish to assist Reuven's to'ayn.  Can any of the chevreh direct me to
the proper p'sakim or sh'uts which may help him?

 

Thank you,

 

Cantor Henry Topas

 

PS:  I am trying to help our R' Micha Berger in his comments a few weeks
back that there is less than an ideal level of participation! On the
other hand, watching and reading the participation of our more active
members is inspiring and IMHO, if the Shas were to be recreated in these
times, it would read very much like Avodah.  Gutteh Voch.

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I had always thought that Yissachar devoted all of his time to 
learning while being supported by Zevulun.  However, this does not 
seem to be correct in light of the commentary of Rabbi Shamshon 
Raphael Hirsch on the Pasuk "He saw that leisure is the good thing, 
and that the land is suited for it; so he bent his shoulder to bear 
and became one who pays the tribute imposed by landwork."  (Bereishis 
49:15)  Rav Hirsch writes

Yissachar is happy to work, but only to the extent and in such a way
that the work is of value to the Jewish people. While Yehudah is the
tribe of rulers and Zevulun the tribe of traders, Yissachar represents
the true nucleus of the Jewish people: the Jewish farmer. He does not
work so as to labor without letup and accumulate wealth. The Jewish
man of the people does not subjugate himself to his work; he works in
order to gain menucha He leaves it to Zevulun to earn millions with his
products; as for himself, he prefers to stay at home. He regards the
leisure he earned by his own labors as his greatest asset and most prized
possession. For leisure enables a person to stand tall and to find himself.

Yissachar therefore lowers his shoulder to bear burdens, leaving the
ruler's scepter to Yehudah and the merchantman's flag to Zevulun. Neither
military glory nor business profit attract him. He knows other
conquests, other treasures, which can be won and retained only in hours
of leisure .

Thus, it was the tribe of Yissachar that became the guardian of the
nation's spiritual treasures.

Knowledge of Torah and its practical application to current circumstances
are not attained by one who immerses himself in business.
Rather, they are attained by one who, in his hours of leisure, frees his
mind of all else, of whom it can be said that Vayar menucha ki tov , he regards
leisure as the true profit to be obtained from work; thus Oseh 
Torahso keva oo'malachto
aroi , he regards Torah study as the main goal, and work as merely an 
incidental means.

 From these comments of Rav Hirsch it is clear that Yissachar limited 
the time he spent working and devoted his leisure time to Torah 
study. But, Yissachar did indeed devote some time to working.  Thus, 
a true Yissachar-Zevulun relationship would seem to me to be one in 
which Yissachar devotes some hours to working and the rest of his 
time to Torah study, while Zevulun makes this lifestyle possible 
through his financial assistance.


Yitzchok Levine 
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At 01:31 PM 4/30/2010, Saul.Z.Newman wrote:
From this it seems to me that any action or deed, whether illegal or
>legal, that in any way casts anything negative on Judaism is a Chillul
>Hashem.

>----- i think a counter example  would  be expounding or  advocating  any
>part of the torah that  brings derision from other jews or  gentiles.  so
>eg , if someone makes clear that he believes in mishkav zachar being a
>toeivah  , whereby he is just quoting the torah, by this definition it
>would be a chillul hashem, since  this is a view that most non-orthodox
>jews and gentiles  would consider unacceptable bigotry.   but by
>definition, following Hashem's word cannot be  a chillul  hashem....

I agree. However, I would not call this a counter example. I would 
not say that the Torah's position on homosexuality casts negativity 
on Judaism. Society's values are wrong.  And, of course, this applies 
to anything in which society's values conflict with the eternal and 
Divine values of the Torah.

[Email #2. -micha]

At 01:31 PM 4/30/2010, Zev Sero wrote:
>Prof. Levine wrote:
>> At 04:33 PM 4/28/2010, Zev Sero wrote:
>>>   But in most countries the average person breaks the law
>>> himself as often as he finds convenient, and certainly doesn't look
>>> down on others just for doing things that are illegal.

>> Can you point to any studies that back up these assertions?

>Studies?  Just look around you.  What normal American thinks it's wrong
>to jaywalk, or to get a parking ticket, or to smoke a joint, or to bet
>on a game?  What normal American would think less of someone for doing so?
>If you need a study for that, there's something very wrong.

Well, I guess that despite the fact that my parents were born here, 
so that I am second generation American born,  then I am not a 
"normal" American. I think that all of these things are wrong and I 
do indeed think less of people who do these things.  Indeed, I view 
double parking by an observant Jew as not only wrong but a Chillul 
Hashem.   And, my experience is that no one looks favorably on people 
who double park which is definitely illegal. YL

R Zev Sero wrote:
"But in most countries the average person breaks the law
himself as often as he finds convenient, and certainly doesn't look
down on others just for doing things that are illegal.":

There is a distinction. This theoretical average non-Jew acknowledges that
he is breaking the law, just that he thinks (hopes) that he will not get
caught. And if he does get caught, he acknowledges that in theory the
government has the "right" to sanction him.

The theoretical average frum Jew, otoh, thinks that the law itself has no
application to him, that he is permitted to disregard it with impunity and
any attempt by the State to impose a penalty is per se unjust.
IMHO, the attitudinal difference is what causes the chilul Hashem.

Shabbat shalom
David I. Cohen
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Rich, Joel wrote:
> Reuven lends shimon a glass vase and tells him he can keep it as long 
> as he wants and if by some chance he doesn't return it not to worry 
> because Reuven is mochel in advance for that possibility.  On his way 
> home, shimon stops at the light where levi, busy talking on his self 
> phone, knocks shimon over and the vase breaks. To whom, if anyone, 
> does levi pay the value of the vase, and why?

Um, this seems extremely simple.  Ask yourself another question, and it
will become blindingly obvious:  Suppose Shimon heads straight for the
market and sells the vase.  Is he a thief?  Of course he is.  Reuven very
clearly did *not* give up ownership of the vase.  He fully expects that
when Shimon no longer needs it, if it's still in usable condition, it will
be returned.  And if, one day, he suddenly finds himself in need of it, he
will have no hesitation in asking Shimon to return it.	So there's no
question that Levi owes the money to Reuven, not to Shimon.

-- 
Zev Sero
================================
Is it so blindingly obvious?  What if in your case  Reuvain comes to Shimon
and asks him for it and shimon says - remember you said if I didn't return
it you are mochel, well I'm not returning it so your mechilah kicks in?
KT
Joel Rich               
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

R' YL:
From these comments of Rav Hirsch it is clear that Yissachar limited the
time he spent working and devoted his leisure time to Torah study. But,
Yissachar did indeed devote some time to working.? Thus, a true
Yissachar-Zevulun relationship would seem to me to be one in which Yissachar
devotes some hours to working and the rest of his time to Torah study, while
Zevulun makes this lifestyle possible through his financial assistance. 
----------------------


relationship is one where Yissochor is well versed in the art of war. And
Sforno says that Yissochor was not prepared for war. And Ibn Ezra and Radak
say that they would pay to get out of war. And Rashbam teaches us that a
true Yissochor-Zevulun relationship requires that Yissochor be wealthy. And
Rashi says that a true Yissochor-Zevulun relationship included that
Yissochor bore the yoke of Torah by day and night! 


KT,
MYG



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