Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 103

Tue, 20 Apr 2010

• 1. What is a Chumrah? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Out-of-Bounds? 3 Ending a Taanis at Sundown (Zev Sero)
• 3. heter iska (Eli Turkel)
• 4. ending a taanis (Eli Turkel)
• 5. mechirat chametz (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: mechirat chametz (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: What Was R Akiva doing & Thinking whilst this plague decimated his Talmidim (Micha Berger)
• 8. SA O"Ch 489:9 (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: chametz after pesach (Akiva Blum)
• 10. Re: mechirat chametz (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: mechirat chametz (Liron Kopinsky)
• 12. Re: SA O"Ch 489:9 (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: chametz after pesach (Ben Waxman)
• 14. RSRH on Kedusha (Yitzchok Levine)
• 15. HaRav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik on Saying Hallel on Yom Ha?Atzma?ut (Yitzchok Levine)
• 16. Lo Plug (Chana)
• 17. Re: HaRav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik on Saying Hallel on Yom Ha'Atzma'ut (Ben Waxman)

On the old avodah perennial, what is a chumerah...

The subject comes up in the Y-mi, Pei'ah 6:1, 29a vilna (today's daf,
FWIW). The gemara asks why the din being discussed isn't in the list in
Edios of places where Beis Shammai is more meiqil than Beis Hillel.

So, here are some criteria for "what is a chumerah" as best the Y-mi
can reconstruct Rebbe's criteria:

- It must be a chumerah for everyone involved. A chumerah for one party
  that is a qulah for the other wouldn't make the list.

  Beis Shammai allow an arusah to buy and sell nechashim that fall to
  her while an arusah. Beis Hillel don't.

- Beis Shammai say that a person can make something hefqer only for
  aniyim. Beis Hillel say that hefqer is only when the rich can claim
  it too.

  However, in this case it IS on the list, because the baal's "chumerah"
  isn't real. Yes, the owner loses property according to Beis Shammai,
  but since he is intending to, it isn't a real chumerah. Therefore Beis
  Shammai are meiqilim on the aniyim, BH are machmirim, and it's listed
  in Edios.

IMHO, this justifies the intuitive notion of chumerah, that the halakhah
is pushing someone to do something they otherwise wouldn't (or not do
something they otherwise would). The baal isn't being pushed by beis
Shammai, so the previous rule is NOT in play.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> An unnamed collegue wrote this. I am "snipping" it with his permission
> 
>> FWIW, when congregants ask me when a minor fast day "ends," I always
>> give them the time of sundown. The popular custom of "tzeit" strikes me
>> as a burdensome and pointless chumra.
> 
> Is this in-bounds because the Aruch Hashulchan indeed does say this
> 
> Or
> 
> Is this out-of-bounds since Tur, SA, Rema and AFAIK the majority of
> posqim require Tzeis - And therefore this would be a kind of "poreish
> min hatzibbur"?

I suppose he's entitled to follow his da'as yochid, since it's an issur
derabbanan.   But he is *not* entitled to call the position of the
majority of poskim "burdensome and pointless"!

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

<<A number of years ago, someone tried to get out of paying interest on a loan
based on the terms of the heter iska agreement. The bank claimed it was just a
religious trick to avoid ribis, but had no legal effect. The courts in Israel
sided with the bank. Rav Elyashiv holds that if the courts could void a
perfectly sound contract on the basis of 'religious purposes', then all the
hetter iskas are no good, unless worded in a way the would close this
loophole.>>

Based on this case the heter iska for all Israeli banks have been rewritten.
Heard a lecture once from the expert who explained how they managed to write
a contract that was halachically valid but would still expose the
banks to almost
zero chances of losing the loan

-- 
Eli Turkel

> FWIW, when congregants ask me when a minor fast day "ends," I always
> give them the time of sundown.?The popular custom of "tzeit" strikes me
> as a burdensome and pointless chumra.

Is this in-bounds because the Aruch Hashulchan indeed does say this

Or

Is this out-of-bounds since Tur, SA, Rema and AFAIK the majority of
posqim require Tzeis - And therefore this would be a kind of "poreish
min hatzibbur"? >>

My experience is that there is a difference between Israel and US.
In the US a taanis usually ends about the same time as shabbat is out
while in Israel it is considerably earlier

-- 
Eli Turkel

<<> One Rabbi I know (here in the US) told me that he showed his Shtar to a few
> lawyers and a judge, all of whom said it would stand up in court.>>

Depends on what is being sold. I have always been disturbed by those that sell
the chametz inside the walls of pots but not the dishes/pots themselves.
Would that hold up in a secular court?


-- 
Eli Turkel

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:37:54PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Depends on what is being sold. I have always been disturbed by those
: that sell
: the chametz inside the walls of pots but not the dishes/pots themselves.
: Would that hold up in a secular court?

I don't know. But in comparison, it sure makes questions against heter
mechirah WRT shemittah far harder to ask. I mean, it would seem we set
the bar pretty high before calling something haaramah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 03:47:19PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: meir rabi meir...@gmail.com
:> What Was R Akiva doing & Thinking whilst this plague decimated his Talmidim

: As per historians?
: Fighting Rome

As I noted about a month back, R' Hai Gaon also translated "askera"
(Yevamos 62b) as "sicarii" (sing: sicarius), a kind of dagger used by a
lower rank of Roman soldier.

So, it's not just the historians.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

OK here in 489:9 the m'chabeir tells us how s'fira is counted in
conjunction with qiddush in shul.

But in Hilchos Shabbos O"Ch 269:1 the m'chabeir says
    "Yoseir tov l'hanhig shelo l'qadeish" in shul

Kinda sounds like - at least in his own day - the m'chabeir was not so
successful in changing the "minhag"... Or maybe ???

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org 
> [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Moshe Y. Gluck
> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:21 AM
> 
> R' Akiva Blum:
> It may be that the same is true here. Whereas the contract may be
> enforceable in
> Beis Din, if the seller or buyer could refuse to comply, and 
> the secular
> Israeli
> courts would back him, on no more that the claim that the 
> contract is for
> religious purposes, that the sale is ineffective.
> ------------------
> 
> One Rabbi I know (here in the US) told me that he showed his 
> Shtar to a few
> lawyers and a judge, all of whom said it would stand up in court. 
> 

The point is that the Israeli court invalidated what should have been a
perfectly sound contract on nothing more than that it is 'religious shtick'.

If I am correct, this psak of Rav Elyashiv would only apply in EY.

Akiva

Eli Turkel wrote:
> <<> One Rabbi I know (here in the US) told me that he showed his Shtar to a few
>> lawyers and a judge, all of whom said it would stand up in court.>>
> 
> Depends on what is being sold. I have always been disturbed by those that sell
> the chametz inside the walls of pots but not the dishes/pots themselves.
> Would that hold up in a secular court?

I don't see why not.   Surely the freedom of contract includes the right
to agree on any terms both parties wish, however strange the court may
find them.

BTW, L practise is to sell the kelim, not just the chametz in them,
and *not* to tovel them afterwards.  The LR explained that the chiyuv
of tevilah is triggered by the fact that the goy had physical custody
of a keli, and therefore could have made it treif; that potential for
becoming treif imparts a sort of tum'ah to the keli, even though it was
never realised.   Since the kelim were never in the goy's physical
custody, so he never had the opportunity to make them treif, they don't
get this tum'ah.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have always been disturbed by those that sell
> the chametz inside the walls of pots but not the dishes/pots themselves.
> Would that hold up in a secular court?
>

'Tarry a little, there is something else.
This bond doth give thee here no jot of blood;
The words expressly are "a pound of flesh." '

Kol Tuv,
Liron
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rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> OK here in 489:9 the m'chabeir tells us how s'fira is counted in
> conjunction with qiddush in shul.
> 
> But in Hilchos Shabbos O"Ch 269:1 the m'chabeir says
>     "Yoseir tov l'hanhig shelo l'qadeish" in shul
> 
> Kinda sounds like - at least in his own day - the m'chabeir was not so
> successful in changing the "minhag"... Or maybe ???

Of course he wasn't successful in changing the whole world.  To this
very day many/most Nusach Ashkenaz shuls make kiddush on Friday night,
despite the mechaber's opinion.   So it makes perfect sense for him
to give his opinion on when those shuls should count sefirah.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Last shmittah, the contract used for the sale was rewritten. Lawyers were
brought in to write it, not rabbis. Some rabbeim later went over it to make
sure that it was OK from their POV.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>

> One Rabbi I know (here in the US) told me that he showed his Shtar to a
few
> lawyers and a judge, all of whom said it would stand up in court.

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch writes the following on Vayikra 19

2 Speak to the entire community of the Children 
of Israel and say to them: Be holy, for I, God, your God, am holy.

The mitzvah of Kedoshim Teyu is a command to strive for the highest
degree of human moral perfection (cf. Commentary, Bereshis 2:3); and
rightfully it should be addressed expressly to each individual. Every
person ? regardless of status or sex, age or lot ? is summoned to
attain the highest moral level. There is no one individual to whom this
call is specially addressed. We must all be Kedoshim, holy.

Kedusha ? to be ready and willing to perform all that is good; a person
cannot attain this virtue unless his whole being is so steeped in morality
that the opposite of the good, viz., the inclination to evil, no longer
has a place within his being. The statement by our Sages in Toras Kohanim
? Kedoshim Teyu means Perushim Teyu? underscores this negative
aspect of Kedusha. It also points out the way that leads to Kedusha; for much
work is required of anyone seeking to attain the heights of Kedusha. Kedusha
is attained through mastery over all of one?s powers and faculties and
over all the temptations and inclinations associated with them ? to be
ready and willing to do God?s Will.

Self-mastery is the highest art a man can practice. Self-mastery does
not mean neglecting, stunting, killing, or destroying any of one?s powers
or faculties. In and of themselves, the powers and faculties ? from the
most spiritual to the most sensual ? that have been given to man are
neither good nor bad. They all have been given to us for exalted purposes
? that we may use them to do God?s Will on earth. The Torah
sets for each of them a positive purpose and negative limits. In the
service of that purpose and within those limits, all is holy and good.
But where a person strays from that purpose and exceeds those limits,
coarseness and evil begin.

As in any other art, virtuosity in this, the highest moral art can be
attained only through practice ? training one?s moral willpower to
master the inclinations of the heart. But this training is not to be undertaken
in the realm of the expressly forbidden, where any slip would
result in wrongdoing. Rather, moral resolve must be tested and strengthened
in the realm of the permitted. By learning to overcome inclinations
that are permitted but related to the forbidden, one gains the power of
self-mastery and thus makes all his powers and faculties subservient to
the fulfillment of God?s Will. Each person, according to his own unique
qualities, should work on his inner self; and he should train quietly, in
a manner known only to himself.

This is the training regimen that our Sages call Perishes, abstinence,
which the Gemara in Yevamos 20a formulates: 
Kadesh atzmicha b'mutur loch, ?Sanctify
yourself in the realm of what is permitted you.? Perishes is not yet
Kedusha, but it is a preliminary step toward it, 
as R. Pinchas ben Yair teaches in
his ?ascending steps? toward moral perfection (see Avodah Zarah 20b). 
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The following is from today's Hakhel Email Bulletin.

Today, Yom Ha'Atzma'ut, is celebrated in some of our communities (in 
various ways), and not celebrated in others.  We all know the 
different approaches and sentiments on the topic--and note that in 
the Third Beis Hamikdash described by Yecheskel there will be 12 
entrances, for there can be different approaches to the one 
Avodah.  What we may add is that however one does or does not 
celebrate, observe or perform--it should be done in accordance with 
the teachings of his ultimate Rav or Posek.  There can be much 
misinformation or misguidance, and a person can conduct himself based 
upon what he believes to be correct, without further 
consultation--and this is the part that is wrong.  As a case in 
point, we may mention that HaRav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik, Z'tl, Rav of 
Boston, and Rosh HaYeshiva of RIETS, was in the Yeshiva on Yom 
Ha'Atzma'ut 5738 (1978)--one of the latter years of his giving 
Shiurim in the Yeshiva.  He davened Shacharis in the Morgenstern 
dormitory minyan, which davened with Hallel.  Later that morning, 
rather than giving Shiur on Perek HaZahav (the 4th perek of Bava 
Metziah which was being studied that Zeman in his Shiur), Rav 
Soloveitchik, obviously upset, instead gave Shiur on the importance 
of keeping the Tzuras HaTefillah intact.  Shemone Esrei is followed 
by Chazaras Hashatz, which is followed by Tachanun, and then followed 
by Ashrei and U'va Letzion--and we do not have the right or privilege 
of changing that, he opined.  Rav Soloveitchik continued that if one 
wanted to express his personal gratitude or thanks to Hakadosh Baruch 
Hu, he could recite the Chapters of Hallel in Tehillim (Chapters 
113-118) after davening.  Now, this is not to say that Rav 
Soloveitchik had a different opinion in earlier years or in later 
years (we do not know either way)--but it is to say that someone was 
not following his Rebbe if he knew what his opinion was at that 
time--and still recited Hallel in place of Tachanun in order to make 
his own personal statement.  On the other hand, if one's final 
Halachic authority is the Rabbanut, his practice should be 
different.  This ruling will be different than that of the 
Badatz-Yerushalayim.  What does your ultimate Rabbinic authority 
say?  A person must look upwards for answers--not to himself, 
downwards or sideways.
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RRW writes:

> OTOH, EG there are rabbis who insist on ending taanis tzibbur using
> the same criteria for tzeis as Shabbos, even though they are differen -
> namely one is d'+raisso and other derabbaan. The "Lo Plug" is probably
> about confusing people re: 2 flavors of tzeis.

And not just that, but don't most decide tzeis on shabbas to allow for some
tosefes shabbas?

And the one that really gets me.  That the Golders Green mikvah (and others
run by similar bodies) insist on using the same criteria for tzeis vis a vis
allowing immersion as for Shabbas - even when they don't for taanis tzibbur.
As in, I have sat in the aforementioned mikvah on Shiva Aser B'Tamuz and the
fast is deemed by all London authorities to go out at around 10.20pm, and
yet they wouldn't allow the first immersion until 10.36pm!

Given that the chashash (and it is only a d'rabbanan chashash at most)
relates to the possibility of a husband and wife having relations before
tzeis (and then after that the woman finding out she was tamei, and being
soser the shiva nekiim), and once a woman immerses she still has to get out
of the mikvah, get dressed and go home - why oh why they have to keep all of
us waiting (and I mean all of us, these days in the Golders Green mikvah
there can be at least twenty to thirty women in the waiting room, plus the
twelve in the various rooms) - until the time deemed tzeis for Shabbas I
really really don't know.  

> KT
> RRW

Regards

Chana

Like many stories of the Rav, there are different versions from different
years and different sources. At Maimonides they said Hallel. In Nefesh
HaRav, Rav Schechter writes that the Rav felt that saying half Hallel was
OK. 

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Yitzchok Levine 


  The following is from today's Hakhel Email Bulletin.

   Rav Soloveitchik, obviously upset, instead gave Shiur on the importance
   of keeping the Tzuras HaTefillah intact.  Shemone Esrei is followed by
   Chazaras Hashatz, which is followed by Tachanun, and then followed by
   Ashrei and U'va Letzion--and we do not have the right or privilege of
   changing that, he opined.  
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