Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 100

Fri, 16 Apr 2010

• 1. Re: Internet Auction (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Out-of-Bounds? 1 Al n'tilas Yadayim (Ben Waxman)
• 3. What Was R Akiva doing & Thinking whilst this plague decimated his Talmidim (Meir Rabi)
• 4. chametz after pesach (Eli Turkel)
• 5. yom haatzmaut (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 6. Re: Out-of-Bounds? 1 Al n'tilas Yadayim (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Out-of-Bounds? 1 Al n'tilas Yadayim (Allan Engel)
• 9. Re: Out-of-Bounds? 1 Al n'tilas Yadayim (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: What Was R Akiva doing & Thinking whilst this plague decimated his Talmidim (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 11. Re: chametz after pesach (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (Micha Berger)
• 14. Out-of-Bounds? 2 - Unshalmah Parim S'faseinu (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 15. Re: Kashrus Alert - Safeway: Purchasing Chometz After Pesach (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 16. Sobering Thoughts as Israel's Independence Day Approaches (Yitzchok Levine)

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:06:06PM -0400, j...@when.com wrote:
: 1) Regarding a timed internet auction, is it mutar to wait until the
: last minuet to outbid a competitive buyer?

I'm just as confused as the others about what the problem could be.
(Also, it would seem a good time to reintroduce yourself, as none of us
can recall your name.)

: 2) Is it hashkafically mutar? 

This question is difficult regardless of the topic. If halakhah forbids
something, there is an objective answer or range of objective answers to
"is it mutar?"

But once one gets into the question of whether it's "hashkafically
mutar", one is really asking about lifnim mishuras hadin. And that
really depends on where the person is holding, what battles with his
yeitzer he is capable of winning, which ones are worth fighting at this
point, etc...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 16th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Tifferes: What type of discipline
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             does harmony promote?

IIRC the Gra also paskened a bracha.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
> 
> Im kein, is this student justified in his convictions to say this
> brachah and be someich on the Rambam?
> 
> Or is this student out-of-bounds for saying a brachah based upon what
> we know - that this Rambam is not followed in practice?

*What Was R Akiva doing & Thinking whilst this plague decimated his Talmidim
*Best
meir rabi
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<<I also learned the following from a reliable source, "Rabbi Heinemann
does not hold of R' Moshe's heter when the mechira is made and the
baal habayis stays open."   However, there are many respected
rabbonim who do agree with Reb Moshe on this issue.>>

R Elyashiv holds that any sale by a nonreligious Jew even though
no chametz is sold over Pesach is not valid as the sale is viewed
as some formality and he doesnt really mean it.

My objection to this reasoning is that it probably holds also for many religious
store owners

kol tuv


-- 
Eli Turkel

http://www.yutorah.org/togo/haatzmaut/articles/Yo
m_Haatzmaut_To-Go_-_5770_Rabbi_Ozerowski.pdf
(or http://bit.ly/9fBf4V )

   excellent  review of the source  material

The question you are asking is if someone can be somech on the Rambam to be
meqil and say a bracha. We could ask the same question about any qula not
paskened by the SA. If someone took this approach and was someich on the
Tosofot and had milk shortly after meat, is he out of bounds?

And in fact you could also ask the question about khumrot not paskened by
the SA.

Ben

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
>
> Im kein, is this student justified in his convictions to say this
> brachah and be someich on the Rambam?
>
> Or is this student out-of-bounds for saying a brachah based upon what
> we know - that this Rambam is not followed in practice?

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 03:48:21PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Do you have a source that issur nissuin was observed w/o the other 2
: namely tispores and m'lachah?

What issur melakhah?

I already cited the AhS which says that nissuin has been since the
geonim, whereas tispores and the rest of aveilus is a minhag that later
arose and is local to "medinos ha'eilu" (OC 493:1-3). We can trust his
survey of what the geonim actually write, at least to the exclusion
of lost teshuvos that were since found. No?

The Biur Halakhah on 493:2 quotes the Peri Megadim that omer is "lo adif
meiChhM". But in the next note he obseves that the machloqes, including
the same PM but even as far back as Tosafos (see also Taz s"q 11),
about whether haircutting is allowed on Lag BaOmer or we say ad ve'ad
bichlal is usually stated by the baalei pelugta as to being about when
R Aqiva's talmidim died.

: Also Hypothesis' sort of Addresses this:
: RRW
: > A: an alternate [hypothesis'] version is - that ChhM and Aveilus
: > were both there day one, and the minhag originally was designed to take
: > on the aspects of the common denominators

As I see it there is a dilemma: If minhagim simply evolve and then
are ratified by the rabbinate, then the kind of analysis you're doing
wouldn't work -- it assumes too much rigor.

If they are designed, then the logical conclusion is RYBS's position,
that every minhag is lifted off a matbei'ah of a din. That "there
is no ritual in Judaism" and therefore a minhag isn't a minhag if it
doesn't contain some "cheftzah shel mitzvah". (Contrary to the Brisker
Rav's chiluq that only that subset of minhagim that qualify as having
a cheftzah shel mitzvah get a berakhah.)

In which case, we would have grounds to "correct" omer and the 3 weeks
to be more like hilkhos aveilus. As RYBS did, and much of YU follows.

...
: 1 The drasha on sheva shabbassos and the term atzeres for shavuos -
: both indicating that
: 2 Since shavuos ends Passover
: therefore the intervening days are a kind of "ChhM"

Alternatively....

There are 49 days of preparation before Shemini Atzeres as well,
starting from RCh Elul.

Nissan is an is'arusa dele'eila, and therefore first comes Pesach and
only then can the 49 days begin. Teshuvah is is'arusa delesata, and
therefore Sukkos is Hashem's response as we approach the Atzeres.

Of course, this parallel isn't "real", in the sense that omer is deOraisa,
and the length of Elul and thus of "teshuvah season" is deRabban. But
then, calling Shavuos "Atzeres" is also deRabbanan. Both reflect a
parallelism that Chazal set up.

...
: Q: Dear Rabbi Wolpoe
: Why not go with the "R Akiva" hypothesis?

: A: Well the Talmud does mention the deaths but NOT the minhag - suggesting
: that the connection may have been retrofitted later

Lehefech, it shows there was no minhag to retro to. The minhag came
later than the deaths, but that doesn't mean the reason for the minhag
when it first began was or wasn't the deaths. The first mention of the
minhag of issur nissuin is in the same geonim who are the first mention of
the association with talmidei R' Aqiva. There is no grounds for opening
the question of RETROfitting..

What one can argue, like the Ari might, that the reason for the minhag
is the death of R' Aqiva's talmidim -- but that connection isn't one of
aveilus in particular. But that would explain tispores more than weddings,
and we have no reason to question the AhS's observation that the geonim
only mention nissuin, not tispores. If the Ari haQadosh were speaking
of aveilus, then it could be an explanation of why the aveilus deepened
to include tispores. But it doesn't cover the initial version of the
minhag.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?

The Rambam holds that by making a Brocho Levatolo one transgresses Lo Sisa
Es H' Elokecha Lashov, so one would expect a follower of the Rambam to be
more stringent in this area.

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:

> The question you are asking is if someone can be somech on the Rambam to be
> meqil and say a bracha.
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Ben ben1...@zahav.net.il
> The question you are asking is if someone can be somech on the Rambam to be
> meqil and say a bracha.

Aderabba - saying a brachah here is a humra. S'feiq brachos l'haqeil
implies NO brachah!

> We could ask the same question about any qula not paskened by the
> SA. If someone took this approach and was someich on the Tosofot and
> had milk shortly after meat, is he out of bounds?

Not really 

S'feiq brachos l'haqeil is a very specific dynamic that I've studied
and is not quite the same as other humros and kullos.

Specifically we have a klal  
A Anytime a brachah is disputed we do NOT say it.

The exception  
B. Is when there is a specific minhag that overrides this

EG For A we are chosheish for a da'as yachid to omit brachos on s'fira
if we fail only once! This is very unusual because afaik ONLY the BeHag
holds it's one long Mitzah! Yet we are chocheish for a da'as yachid.

Re B - when a specific minhag that overrides this
1. 4 brachos on 4 kossos [Rambam vs. Rosh]
2. 2 brachos on Tefillin [Rosh vs, Rif/Rambam]

By consulting a Teimani, I was aiming to demonstrate that no such minhag
is based upon followers of the Rambam

However, I overlooked this GRA and I concede that the GRA factor does
change this dynamic. Just afaik the talmid was davka being someich on
the Rambam which Teimanim themselves afaict do not rely upon.

So for illustrative purposes let's simply set this GRA aside 

GS
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

meir rabi meir...@gmail.com
> What Was R Akiva doing & Thinking whilst this plague decimated his Talmidim

As per historians?
Fighting Rome

The "Plague" might have been simply casualties incurred during the Revolt

The story of R. Yehuda ben Bava and his giving S'micha to R' Akiva's
junior Talmiddim before Rome got to him. This supports the idea of the
deaths as due to the struggle with Rome.

AIUI the subsequent mourning primarily was more about the loss of Torah
and Mesorah since we've lost greater quantites of Jews in other tragedies
- such as the Churban etc.

GS
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

elitur...@gmail.com
> R Elyashiv holds that any sale by a nonreligious Jew even though no
> chametz is sold over Pesach is not valid as the sale is viewed as some
> formality and he doesnt really mean it.

Asi macchsavah umvateil maaseh?
D'varim sheb'leiv havei d'varim?
What about when we're kofeh a man to give a Get?

GS
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Micha
> What issur melakhah?

See 
    Tur O"Ch 493[:4]
    SA O"Ch 493:4
    Baer Hetev 11
    MB 18
    KSA 120:10

FWIW issur m'lachah is a component common to both aveilus and ChhM -
I refer primarily to Elu M'galchin where these conjunctions appear
frequently.

I don't have the time to address each point
Rather I suggest to anyone who's mind is not made up to consult the 
    - Tur O"Ch 493
and 
    - KSA 120:6-10

Meditate and contemplate on what 
The two texts share in common - and try to block out all external Torah
on this inyan.

It appears to me that the Qitsur - of all hibburim - preserved the
Rishonic model best w/o embellishment

Perhaps this is Likened to seeing a Siddur that preceded Henna's dikduk
revisions

Here's how I arrived at my hypothesis:
A. Seeing those texts above
B. Learning Elu m'galchun
C. Noticing the lack of sweeping aveilus in any early sources
D. seeing the drasha on sheva shabbosos
E. noting the term "atzeres"
F. Factoring in the Arizal's 48 day issur tispores
G. Noting the term in Tur and KSA as "miktzas" aveilus or "k'tzas aveilus"
   and NOT total aveilus

NB: KSA in beginnng of 6 - Where the scope is limitted by a klal and
prat format.


GS
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 05:43:46PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Micha
: > What issur melakhah?

: See 
:     Tur O"Ch 493[:4]
...

By women (Mishnah Berurah: and men) for 90 min between sheqi'ah and
counting does not sound similar to ChM. Maybe more like not eating
dinner before maariv. But that's not it either.

That Tur, the Taz (s"q 16) and same MB (s"q 19) say the reason for
an issur melakhah in the evenings was because that's when talmidei R'
Aqiva were buried.

This is actually more proof of the aveilus theory. No?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?

Since the Hurban we no longer DO or perform Qarabonos
However we do recite the various texts concerning the Qorbanos instead

Recently, in studying Hirsch's Haggadah, I noticed that the recitation
of the procedure of Qorban Pesach, is an old, time-honored Minhag.
This apparently stems from "unshalmah parim s'faseinu'"

Similarly we recite various parshiyyos and TSBP re: the sacrifices in
our daily davening between brachos and Psuqei d.zimrah

Now along comes a rather liberal scholar who suggests doing away with all
mention of the parshiyyos and mishnayyos re: sacrifices and using stam
t'filah instead. He posits that any/every t'filah is m'qayeim "unshalmah"
and not just the reictation of passages that directly refer to qorbanos

Is this Liberal Scholar justified in his convictions to say any davening
at all to be m'qayeim "unshalmah"?

Or 
is this liberal scholar out-of-bounds for omitting all Qorbanos Texts
and using a non-traditional understanding of "unshalmah" in order to do
away with all direct referneces to sacrifices?

GS
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> I also learned the following from a reliable source, "Rabbi
> Heinemann does not hold of R' Moshe's heter when the mechira is
> made and the baal habayis stays open." However, there are many
> respected rabbonim who do agree with Reb Moshe on this issue.
> ...
> IMO, the Star-K did not do a community service by sending this
> announcement out without qualifying it properly.

I'd like to offer two very different responses.

1) I presume you mean that they should have qualified it by mentioning
other views, such as that of Rav Moshe. Why do you feel this qualification
is necessary for it to count as a community service? If they simply give
their own view, is that insufficient? Will we now require every
organization to cite views other than those held by that organization?

2) If one's response to the above is something like, "Yes, all the views
should be cited so that the individual can decide for himself," then, to be
fair, this rule should also be imposed on the meikilim as well. Even the
rav who sold the chometz would not be allowed to publicize that fact,
unless he also names the poskim who would invalidate his procedure.

My feeling is that one should be allowed to tell his own views without
having to also publicize other views. They should be responsive to
questions if asked, but to require them to give all sorts of disclosures
and dissenting views from the beginning is an unreasonable burden.

Moreover: If one holds very strongly to the machmir view, but mentions that
there is also a meikil view, then people will misinterpret him to mean that
following the meikil is not so terrible. And if one holds very strongly to
the meikil view, but mentions that there is also a machmir view, then
people will misinterpret him to mean that following the machmir is a good
idea.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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Israel's Independence will be celebrated on 4/19.

Below are some thoughts regarding the founding of 
the Jewish State from A Unique Perspective: The 
Essays of Rav Dr. Joseph Breuer.

Page 358

Anyone who is imbued with the eternal truth and validity of
God?s Torah will have to be aware that a state on God?s holy soil
will only be able to endure if the conditions that God has set down
for a Jewish state on His holy soil are met. These conditions apply
to the Jewish entity and to the life of every individual who declares
himself a member of God?s People.

Every word in our Torah is ironclad testimony to these facts.

Page 359

We have expressed it repeatedly in all clarity and intensity: This
state will have a future only if, and as long as, it is organized as a
Jewish state, i.e., a state of God, rising on sacred soil. It will be a
state of God if it proclaims the Torah as the fundamental law of its
constitution and propagates its practical realization in the life of our
people.

Page 365

There must live in us this unshakeable conviction: This State
will last only if it will rise as God?s State on God-holy soil. This
alone will prevent it from suffering the fate of the previous Jewish
States. Will this State live up to this condition? It is still a question,
a source of terrible worry. We wished it were no longer a question!
As certain as it is that this State, the mere fact of its formation,
does not mean that the Ge?ulah has arrived, just as potent is its
ability ?as perhaps never before in our Galus-history?to hasten
the coming of the Ge?ulah. What a tragedy if this State, either by
delusion or folly, were to prolong the Galus and provoke new and
terrible catastrophes! May Hashem prevent this from happening. 
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