Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 99

Thu, 15 Apr 2010

• 1. Kashrus Alert - Safeway: Purchasing Chometz After Pesach (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Tiqun Layl HaSeder vs. Tiqun Layl Shavuos (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 3. Taut aku"m (Saul Mashbaum)
• 4. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Who First Said It? 9 - No Music during Sefirah (Michael Poppers)
• 7. Re: Who First Said It? 9 - No Music during Sefirah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 8. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 9. Internet Auction (j...@when.com)
• 10. Re: Internet Auction (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Internet Auction (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 12. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (Allan Engel)
• 14. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 15. Out-of-Bounds? 1 Al n'tilas Yadayim (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

At 03:14 PM 4/14/2010, R. Joel Rich wrote:

>April 13, 2010
>Although Safeway Supermarkets is a non-Jewish corporation, the 
>Eastern Seaboard Safeway stores order 80% of their groceries from C 
>& S, a Jewish distributor. These products will arrive in stores by 
>April 18th. Chometz which was purchased immediately after Pesach may 
>be used. However, for three weeks starting from April 18th through 
>May 9th, 2010, chometz products such as cereals and pasta should not 
>be purchased from Safeway.
>
>Please post this in your shul or synagogue
>
>View all our alerts here
>
>This message was sent from Star-K Certification

A reputable Orthodox rabbi wrote the following to me.  "I don't know 
whether the Star-K is unaware that I sell chametz for C&S, or are 
aware but don't think it's valid.  If the latter, it's not just a 
problem for Safeway, but for a slew of other supermarkets: C&S is, I 
believe, the largest food wholesaler in the Northeast."

I also learned the following from a reliable source, "Rabbi Heinemann 
does not hold of R' Moshe's heter when the mechira is made and the 
baal habayis stays open."   However, there are many respected 
rabbonim who do agree with Reb Moshe on this issue.

This announcement from the Star-K was I have been told meant for 
Baltimore only. However, it does not say this in the announcement. As 
a result, it has been picked up nationally and is being spread as the 
"gospel" everywhere. See http://www.kashrut.com/Alerts/

IMO, the Star-K did not do a community service by sending this 
announcement out without qualifying it properly.

Yitzchok Levine 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100414/1ed2f243/attachment-0001.htm>

jmeis...@gmail.com
> It may be significant that the Shulchan Aruch, following in the steps of
> the Rosh, defined the chiyuv on Pesach night as being "ad she-tacht'fenu
> sheina"

Exactly! - shkoyach.

> the Magen Avraham's explanation of staying up all Shavu'os night as
> being a takana for k'lal Yisroel oversleeping on the day of Matan Torah
> implies that the significance of the minhag is to be up very early as
> a result of not sleeping

Which is the reason why - when my shul in upper Manhattan was struggling
with Tiqqun Layl Shavuos due to concerns of both safety and and of the
elderly - I suggested doing TLS an hour plus BEFORE shacharis instead
of late at night - specifically based upon this premise; namely that
the iqqar is to get up early - and not so much to stay up late.

And a bit of "hislamdus" that's how understanding origins and the
underlying principles of a given halachah and minhag can be empowering --
EG when they need to be tweaked. As opposed to doing things merely by
rote mimetics.

I also see it as very "Hirschian" to understand the underlying dynamics.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Joel Rich quoted the Be'er HaGolah on CHM 348 on the virtue of
honesty towards all, including nochrim. People who cheated aku"m ultimately
suffered for it, and those who dealt honestly, thereby creating a kiddush
HaShem. were rewarded in the end.

The Torah T'mimah to Vayikra 25:14 quotes this Be'er HaGolah, and  notes
that this comment is particularly noteworthy in light of the personal
history of the Beer HaGolah. He and his family were expelled from their
homes in the upheavals around the time of the persecutions of 1648-49
(gzeirot Tach veTat), losing all their possessions and becoming utterly
impoverished. The Be'er HaGolah made his way to Amsterdam, where he
published his work on Choshen Mishpat, in which included his exhortation to
deal with non-Jews justly and honestly, despite the grievous injustices
which the hostile surrounding Christian society inflicted on him and his
family.

I have always found this ability of the Be'er HaGolah to maintain a
principled commitment to moral standards even in the face of personal
tragedy inspiring.

Please see the TT's own words at

http://www.hebre
wbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?sits=1&;req=14132&st=%u05D1%u05D0%u05E8
%20%u05D4%u05D2%u05D5%u05DC%u05D4

Saul Mashbaum
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100414/b254023e/attachment-0001.htm>

Micha:
> But that's the Zohar. You spoke of the Ari, and we already saw that the
> PEC ties the centrality of hair to the niftarim being talmidei R' Aqiva.

> We have yet to see anyone make this Zohar a lemaaseh.

I gave Micha an offlist heads up on this

The issur taspores until erev shavuos is cited by Shaarei T'shuva O"Ch
493:8 in the name of the Arizal.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 07:34:22PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: The issur taspores until erev shavuos is cited by Shaarei T'shuva O"Ch
: 493:8 in the name of the Arizal.

I assume you're using this as an indication that the Ari agreed with the
Zohar lemaaseh because if it were about talmidei R' Aqiva -- why more
than 32-33 days?

But the ShT doesn't actually say anything about the reason.

The PEC records a connection to
talmidei R' Aqiva AND acknowledges that the Ari held of avoiding
taspores 48 days. So it would seem that RCV didn't assume that
the two ideas conflict.

The death of the talmidim during part of the omer could in theory give
a meaning to the omer period as a whole: One is preparing for qabbalas
haTorah the entire duration. Because R' Aqiva's Torah is the making of
mountains out of tagim which in turn is paralleled by hair, this includes
an issur taspores.

This could extend beyond the 32-33 days in which they actually
died. Regardless of the ShT, how else would one understand the PEC?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 15th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Tifferes: What is the Chesed in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            harmony?

In Avodah V27#97, under thread "Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during
Sefirah", RRW wrote:
> Future thread BEH -
"Who First Said It? 9 - Issur
Music during Sefirah" <
and he added in the subsequent digest (using the subject of this thread):
> The main thrust is the same, when did S'fira and music first get linked?
<
Initially, IINM, due to not making weddings (which featured music) during
the timespan in question.

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100414/d8aa4ed7/attachment-0001.htm>

Me - RRW:
> ...When did S'fira and music first get linked?

Michael Poppers MPopp...@kayescholer.com
> Initially, IINM, due to not making weddings (which featured music)
> during the timespan in question

It indeed seems so from MGA, Ba'er Hetev and MB that eirusin [or
shidduchin] while muttar should NOT include "Riqqudim and M'cholos"

But this "begs" the question 
Who first "divorced" dancing from this ban and outlawed merely listening
to music during S'fira w/o any dancing?

It does not appear that as late as the MB that music by itself was a problem.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Micha:
> I assume you're using this as an indication that the Ari agreed with the
> Zohar lemaaseh because if it were about talmidei R' Aqiva -- why more
> than 32-33 days?

Actually I'm just simply noting that the Arizal's sheeta made it into
the posqim - nothing more.


Warning this is gonna be long...
-------------------



Given 49 days
Take aways shabbos YT ChhM etc. And it leaves 33 days to observe mourning

This somewhat dovetails with my comment to my friend on Passover -the
one who does his 33 days first in order to listen to music during ChHM
and I noted to him that means no 33 days of mourning.

But I confess to being coy, because I had already formulated much of
these concepts so I knew that if one observes EITHER the first 33 or
the last 33, it's not necessarily a full 33 of Mourning anyway...

*****************

At any rate my thesis is primarily that the observences were motivated
by ChhM considerations * and not for aveilus - which I primarily see as
having evolved later on

> Wolpoe's Rule #1 of TSBP - we often know the what without knowing the why

So the WHAT in the Tur is all ChhM stuff EVEN though he gives Aveilus
as the WHY.

That was the first shift

Then the humra spiral began by adding aveilus elements to s'firah in
addition to the original 3 - namely
1. Taspores
2. Nissuin 
3. M'lachah

-----------------------



A. an alternate version of my hypothesis is - that ChhM and Aveilus were
both there day one, and the minhag originally was designed to take on
the aspects of the common denominators. With this model, extra aveilus
would still not be apropos...

B. The Humros added for S'fira can be seen in Ashkenaz as stemming from
the suffering during the Crusades. If so added aveilus may have evolved
later on, and for highly justifiable reasons but not due to the deaths
of R Akiva's students which arguably triggered much fewer observances

This would mean no humra spiral, but a tragedy spiral R"L instead.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 

1) Regarding a timed internet auction, is it mutar to wait until the last minuet to outbid a competitive buyer? 
2) Is it hashkafically mutar? 




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100414/baf32ecc/attachment-0001.htm>

j...@when.com wrote:
> 
> 1) Regarding a timed internet auction, is it mutar to wait until the 
> last minuet to outbid a competitive buyer?
> 2) Is it hashkafically mutar?

Why on earth not?

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

R' Jew:
1) Regarding a timed internet auction, is it mutar to wait until the last
minuet to outbid a competitive buyer? 
2) Is it hashkafically mutar? 
-------------------


2) Why not?

KT,
MYG

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 01:01:58AM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: There is another derech/approach
: Given 49 days
: Take aways shabbos YT ChhM etc. And it leaves 33 days to observe mourning

There are 12 minhagim about how to count 33 days, actually. (Although a
few only differ by whether miqtzas hayom kekulo is invoked for this day
or that one. E.g. do you refrain on /or leLag baOmer/?)

: At any rate my thesis is primarily that the observences were motivated
: by ChhM considerations * and not for aveilus - which I primarily see as
: having evolved later on

It began being about bedavqa weddings. Of all the things one doesn't do
on ChhM, why weddings? I therefore am not convinced, yet.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 16th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Tifferes: What type of discipline
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             does harmony promote?

The problem I have is in marrying up what happened to the talmidim of R'
Akiva to the different practices of mourning today (if indeed, such a
connection can be made)

When did the talmidim stop dying?

a) If the last of them died on Day 33, surely it's a bit incongruous that
the day is a mini holiday, surely it should be the bitterest day. The
Sefardi practice to wait until Day 34 to resume festivities fits in well
with this theory, but not the Ashkenazi practice of having weddings on Lag
B'omer. And if it's a question of Miktzas Hayom Ke'Kulo, how could
(according the the Sfardi poskim) this aveilus be more Chomur than Shiva for
a parent, where everyone holds MHK'K on the last day?

b) If the plague began merely to slow down on Day 33, why is the mourning
period restricted to 33 days, when people were still dying after that time?

For either of the above hypotheses, What is the relevance of applying a
different set of davka 33 consecutive days of mourning, such as starting on
RC Iyyar, if this does not correlate to the original plague? If you say that
the aveilus is incompatible with Nissan, then don't be noheig aveilus in
Nissan, but why keep on after Day 33 or 34? Why such a specific role for the
number 33?

The issue is confusing enough, without coming on to the separate issues of
the Crusades and the supposed Yohrzeit of R' Shimon b Yochai.


On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> There are 12 minhagim about how to count 33 days, actually. (Although a
> few only differ by whether miqtzas hayom kekulo is invoked for this day
> or that one. E.g. do you refrain on /or leLag baOmer/?)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20100415/6a4193bd/attachment.htm>

Me RRW:
> At any rate my thesis is primarily that the observences were motivated
> by ChhM considerations * and not for aveilus - which I primarily see as
> having evolved later on

Micha:
> It began being about bedavqa weddings. Of all the things one doesn't
> do on ChhM, why weddings?



Q: to Micha:
Do you have a source that issur nissuin was observed w/o the other 2
namely tispores and m'lachah?

Also Hypothesis' sort of Addresses this:
RRW
> A: an alternate [hypothesis'] version is - that ChhM and Aveilus
> were both there day one, and the minhag originally was designed to take
> on the aspects of the common denominators?

------------------------



1 The drasha on sheva shabbassos and the term atzeres for shavuos -
both indicating that
2 Since shavuos ends Passover
therefore the intervening days are a kind of "ChhM"

But not ChhM mamash! - because it was not shayach to
Keep it so long - so only a subset was kept. 

C note that psoqim on Elu m'galchim point ouut that not shaving on ChhM
can count those days towards shloshim - though not for shiva.

Q: Dear Rabbi Wolpoe
Why not go with the "R Akiva" hypothesis?

A: Well the Talmud does mention the deaths but NOT the minhag - suggesting
that the connection may have been retrofitted later

The weak link is that Gaonim made this connection as opposed to the
victims of the crusades - which is a minus for my position.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Scenario:
A student in Yeshiva is convinced of the Rambam's position re: n'tilas
Yadayim for T'filah - namely that it triggers a brachah.

So as a result of his conviction, he proceeds to recite a brachah

Last Night a Teimani told me that while he washed n'tilas Yadayim
before T'filah, he says no brachah. He and I presume that this is due
to s'feiq brachos l'haqeil

Apparently we can also assume that there is no Minhag to make this
brachah - at least not in any community of which we know

Usually Minhag Avos or Minhag haMaqom may justify saying a disputed
brachah. But apparently in this case there is apparently no minhag upon
which to be someich.

Im kein, is this student justified in his convictions to say this
brachah and be someich on the Rambam?

Or is this student out-of-bounds for saying a brachah based upon what
we know - that this Rambam is not followed in practice?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 99
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."