Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 98

Wed, 14 Apr 2010

• 1. Re: Our Attitude Toward Mitzvos (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Re: Tiqun Layl HaSeder vs. Tiqun Layl Shavuos (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Who First Said It? 9 - No Music during Sefirah (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 4. Re: Who First Said It? 7 - Mourning during Sefirah (Micha Berger)
• 5. FW: [WestOrangeShuls] Fw: Kashrus Alert - Safeway: Purchasing Chometz After Pesach (Rich, Joel)
• 6. mourning in sefira (Eli Turkel)
• 7. halav HaCompanies (Eli Turkel)
• 8. halav hacompanies (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: Tiqun Layl HaSeder vs. Tiqun Layl Shavuos (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: Selling whiskey/bourbon (Danny Schoemann)
• 11. Re: Zerizus in the Haggadah (Danny Schoemann)
• 12. Subject: Tircha yeteira (Danny Schoemann)
• 13. Lo Plug (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: Lo Plug (Micha Berger)
• 15. Who Said it First - What's the Point? (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 16. Re: Tiqun Layl HaSeder vs. Tiqun Layl Shavuos (Joshua Meisner)

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:
> What should our attitude toward observing mitzvos be?  I have at
> times heard people say, "I do this and that, but such and such I
> do not believe that I have to do."

I have probably used such words at one time or another. I'll have to be
more careful, because I never meant to suggest, chalilah, that I reject the
authority of HaShem or Chazal, only that I question whether the specified
act is required or not.

For example, I'll say, "I cover my head when davening, but I do not believe
that I have to wear any specific style of covering, other than it be
respectful." I suppose it is possible that some listmembers feel that the
way I dress for davening is *not* adequately respectful, but that is a
dispute in Hilchos Tefilah, and is not (or should not be) relevant to my
acceptance of Hashem's authority.

Similarly, I suppose it is possible that there are some women listmembers
whose sleeves or skirts or haircoverings would be considered unacceptable
to certain other listmembers. I am confident that the vast majority of such
women listmembers would never dream of saying "I keep Shabbos, but I do not
believe that I have to dress any particular way." Rather, the vast majority
of listmembers are committed to doing what HaShem wants us to do. There's
no disagreement about that - the disagreements lie in our understandings of
exactly what HaShem does or does not demand of us. (To make myself even
clearer: If a woman listmember wears sleeves of a length that RYL or I
would consider against halacha, I am nevertheless confident that the woman
is following authorities (real or imagined) who allow such a length, or
perhaps she is simply mistaken, but NOT, chalilah, that she rejects the
concept.)

RYL quotes Rav Dr. Breuer as writing:

> Whatever command or prohibition of God it may be that prompts
> one to ask why one should do this and not that, there is
> always but one and the same answer: Because it is the Will of
> God, and it is your duty to be the servant of God with all
> your powers and resources and with every breath of your life.
> This answer is not only adequate; it is essentially the only
> one possible...

It is always good to be reminded about such things, and I thank RYL for
posting it. But I really hope there aren't any listmembers who need to be
convinced of it.

Akiva Miller

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R' Rich Wolpoe asked:
> Wouldn't it seem obvious that we have a stronger imperiative to
> say up all Seder night and be oseiq in SYM, or Hilchos Pesach or
> Shir Hashirim - as the case may be - as opposed to Layl Shavuos
> which seems to have a later origin?

This question was asked by a friend to Rav Aharon Feldman (currently RY at
Ner Yisroel Baltimore) when he was teaching at Ohr Somayach. His answer
was, and this is an exact quote, "It's the wine :-)". (He smiled when he
said it.)

Akiva Miller



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I just received this fax
> The counting of the Omer is from Tuesday 3/30 until Monday 5/17.

> Please be advised that no instrumental music may be played in the
> restaurant or catering facility during this time.

Well, much of this is self-evident but let's parse it anyway

A. First of all, what is the earliest source for the prohibition of
   simply hearing instrumental music during S'fira

B And what is the specific concern about being subjected to someone
  else's music and merely listening passively? Is there an issur hana'ah
  in being around music during s'fira?

[OTOH When I lost my Dad A"H I *did* at times request that my office
mate cut off his radio]

C. Notice this is for the entire period, not just 33 days

D. For a catering facility - whose being addressed? Few Customers
   are to be found in the commissary so it seems only the Mashgiach or
   potentially a few frum workers are impacted.

E. What about this issur is so important so as to motivate a fax a notice
   to each facility?

The main thrust is the same, when did S'fira and music first get linked?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 02:23:02AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: T6...@aol.com wrote:
: >The issue is not aveilus?  What /is/ the issue?

: The Zohar compares the preparation for mattan torah to a nidah rising
: out of her tum'ah and preparing for her chosson.  It specifically refers
: to the hair grown during her time of tum'ah being cut in order to become
: tahor.

But that's the Zohar. You spoke of the Ari, and we already saw that the
PEC ties the centrality of hair to the niftarim being talmidei R' Aqiva.

We have yet to see anyone make this Zohar a lemaaseh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

April 13, 2010
Although Safeway Supermarkets is a non-Jewish corporation, the Eastern
Seaboard Safeway stores order 80% of their groceries from C & S, a
Jewish distributor. These products will arrive in stores by April 18th.
Chometz which was purchased immediately after Pesach may be used. However,
for three weeks starting from April 18th through May 9th, 2010, chometz
products such as cereals and pasta should not be purchased from Safeway.

Please post this in your shul or synagogue

View all our alerts here

This message was sent from Star-K Certification

====================================================



Is there a chiyuv (and on who) to be mvarer who the Jewish distributors in
the US are,who they distribute to, whether they have sold their chametz,
what they sell and how long the distribution cycle is for each product?

KT
Joel Rich
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<<AFAIK there is nobody who does not permit weddings on Lag Ba'omer.>>

I am pretty sure that ROY says that the heter for weddings begins on the 34th of
the omer and NOT on Lag Baomer.

-- 
Eli Turkel

<<OTOH, many cultures drink mare's milk and camel milk.>>

A friend of mine who frequently visits Egypt for business told me he won't
drink the milk there because they frequently mix in camel's milk.

However, I would assume that in the US that is not a problem.

As an aside I have never understood the application of "Lo plug".
Half the time we use it and half the time poskim say the two cases
are different.

A classical case is lighting candles for YomTov. The wife of the perisha
says to say the bracha before lighting while MA argues and says lo plug.
My impression is that most (ashkenazi) women hold like the perisha's wife.
There are many other such cases including chalav akum

-- 
Eli Turkel

<<If tamei milk was as rare back then as tamei eggs were, then the
gezera of Haleiv Yisrael would never have been instituted.>>

with the added proviso of US and much of western Europe and other
similar cultures.
In other parts of the world it is simply not true

-- 
Eli Turkel

Akiva Miller <kennethgmil...@juno.com>:
> "It's the wine :-)". (He smiled when he said it.)

This actually might be quite serious!
Indeed I was sort of m'chavein to this as follows

On layl shavuos people consume coffee and snacks in order to stay up
and learn

While on layl seder we may davka NOT eat after the afikoman nor
drink after 4th cup of wine - except water [some are meiqel allowing
tea/coffee]

So this led me to believe that Hazal did NOT want to force us to stay up

RATHER, so long as we ARE up they set up a program of what to
learn/discuss, but they did NOT really expect us to stay up.

So kudos to Akiva's approach

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

R' David Riceman wrote:
: If more than a few people were makpid on eating hullin b'tohorah then
: people would starve since, in the days before pesticides, a large
: proportion of grain would be infested with rodents.

I don't follow your train of thought.

Live rodents don't cause Tum'ah. (I'm assuming the "rodent" is
"English" for the "7 Sherotzim" that are Metamei as in the end of
Parsha Shemini.)

Dead rodents would only be a problem if found on grain that got wet on
purpose after it was harvested - and even then, only the grain around
the dead rodent would be an issue. (The grain touching the dead
rodent, the kernels touching those - up to 4 kernels away at the
strictest level of "al Taharas HaKodesh")

Puzzled,

- Danny

RMB asked:

Okay, so why is our [answer] to the chakham "kehilkhos hapesach"? And
second, why "ein maftirin achar hapesach afiqoman" as opposed to any
law? If it's because this is the last law of the seder, why not "ad
ein maftirim..."?

R' MM Kasher zt"l in the Hagoda Sheleima (adding together from notes
98 - 104) answers as follows.

The chakham is asking: why don't we eat the Korban Pessach earlier on
in the Seder - isn't KP the focal point of the Seder?
The chakham refers to it in a clever way; the item which is:
- Edus: that reminds us of the RBSO skipping over the Jewish homes
- Chukim: we can't break Korban Pessach bones or eat it in 2 homes
- Mispotim: non-circumcised cannot eat from it
- "that HaShem command YOU": and "us kids" are not able to have our
own Korban Pessach

And you should answer him: That's "kehilkhos hapesach"; one of the
laws of KP; "ein maftirin achar hapesach afiqoman" we cannot eat after
it, so we have to keep it for last.

(Not quite as Lomdish as RMB)

- Danny

R' Joel Rich asked:

Over yom tov someone told me of a psak not to have non bnei brit at a
yom tov dinner even if food preparation was not an issue, due to
tircha yeteira of serving ?  Anyone have a working definition of
tircha yeteira on a micro level which would support this(but not
disallow almost any extra effort in other venues?)

The "source" of this is OC 512:1 which does not refer to "serving" but
to cooking; the Heter of cooking on Yom Tov is based on LoChem - for
you - which excludes doing Melacha for non bnei brit and (512:3) ofot
veKelavim.

Actually one may have ones non bnei brit servants at the meal as well
as any non bnei brit who were not invited but just happened to be
there - so serving is not the issue, cooking more food is.

Same reasoning is given in 518:1 where carrying outside for a non bnei
brit is forbidden.

(By the size of the Biur Halocho you will see that the above is superficial.)

The Kitzur SA learners will have happened upon this Halocho in KSA 98:36

- Danny

Eli Turkel elitur...@gmail.com:
> As an aside I have never understood the application of "Lo plug".
> Half the time we use it and half the time poskim say the two cases
> are different.

> A classical case is lighting candles for YomTov. The wife of the perisha
> says to say the bracha before lighting while MA argues and says lo plug.
> My impression is that most (ashkenazi) women hold like the perisha's
> wife. There are many other such cases including chalav akum

Kinda apples and oranges

Haleiv "aku'm"'s stature is Talmudic in nature

AFAIK There is nothing in talmud about how to light candles for YT
[Except for a non-extant Yerushalmi quoted by hagahot Miamoniyyot]

Same for brachot on lighting which Maggid Mishneh attributes to Seder
Rav Amram Gaon.

So in these cases "lo plug" could be completely different in nature.

Usually A talmudic g'zeira would be more subject to Lo Plug than a post
Talmudic G'zeira

Consider the meat unsalted for 72 hours.
Which is Gaonic. An exception is made when re-soaked - allowing the
clock to start over again. BUT afaik this exemption not in the original
g'zeira itself. But, it didn't have to be.

As far as this MGA goes I have to see it inside. It is very strange to
me to apply a real "lo plug"

OTOH, EG there are rabbis who insist on ending taanis tzibbur using
the same criteria for tzeis as Shabbos, even though they are differen -
namely one is d'+raisso and other derabbaan. The "Lo Plug" is probably
about confusing people re: 2 flavors of tzeis.

Also KAJ-Breuer's has a level time for issur hametz erev Pesach regardless
of the sha'os z'maniyos, but yet it does account for Standard vs. Daylight
time

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

RET raised the same question last August
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol26/v26n171.shtml#09>:
> Since it is brought I have asked people for years for any rules when
> lo plog applies.

> It is obviously a machloket one famous candles is lighting candles for
> yom tov. The wife of the perisha says to first make the beracha and
> then light since it is YomTov.
> Magen Avraham yells at her and claims lo plog.

See the thread at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=L#LO%20PLOG> as
well as the next two.

RJR rejoined:
: imho this is a specific case of a more general question - is the
: halachic process reproducible?

To which I answered that I think it isn't. After all, which mistakes
become gezeiros involve the history and what mistakes were being made --
not only the process.

And then there are cases like "halakhah keBH" where the history of the
schools -- their relative sizes and members' kavod for the other school
-- determined din. The process could have gone the other way had the
history of the machloqes been different.

As to the original question... I would think that blurring that clouds the
whole point would not be good territory for such simplification. It's an
instance of kol hamosif gorei'ah. But using a suboptimal ordering of the
berakhos when lighting candles doesn't pose such problems. And while
making a later tzeis for taanis tzibbur is a tirchah, it doesn't hide
the notion of taanis tzibbur, teshuvah, etc...

Returning one step prior to RRW's comment:
> Why doesn't KAJ EG accept this heter?  Perhaps

> A. KAJ sees USDA as NOT so intimidating so it's a machloqes in shiqqul
> hadda'as [or in metzius]

> Or

> B KAJ has many Europeans. USDA is insufficient because of a "lo plug"
> that we want a single GLOBAL standard of Haleiv Yisroel - and NOT to
> Be subject to the vagaries of local gov't agencies.

My line of reasoning would rule out B. Because that's ignoring the whole
issue that chalav yisrael is based on.

This notion is akin to one I was taught WRT bal tosif. Tzitzis is about
"4 kanfos", perhaps in parallel to the "4 kanfos haaretz". Add a 5th,
and the mitzvah is more pale in symbolism. However, Chazal had no
problem adding knots to the original deOraisa...

Another example -- why are there so many hilkhos berakhos? Why didn't
Chazal simply make one berakhah rishonah, one berakhah acharonah
(perhaps 2 -- a separate one for the qiyum deOraisa), and keep things
simplarly simple? No, instead I need to know whether rice is a grain,
what's the iqar and what's the tafel, is it part of the meal...

I think because part of the haqaras hatov of a berakhah includes being
aware of the specifics of the tov. Gratitude for "everything You do" is
a pale "thank you".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 15th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Tifferes: What is the Chesed in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            harmony?

I was requested offlist to explain from which perspective this series
stems.

Here is a simple exercise that will BEH illustrate this point of being
"contrarian"

Can anyone dentify this quote/paraphrase from Author Y?
> I saw all of his words in the Book "X" as if Given from the mouth of
> Moshe from the "G'vurah" and the students will come afterwords and drink
> from his words w/o dispute, and with this, they will contravene all of
> the customs of the lands.

> And Hazal have already said that many things are different between place
> A and place B even in the earlier generations, all the more say in the
> current generations.

Furthermore our author continues [emphasis mine]
> Therefore I have seen. fit to write the opinions of the "acharonim"...in
> order to arouse the students everywhere. THAT THEY KNOW THAT THERE IS
> A DISPUTE in his [namely X's] words.

Can anyone identify the

A. The Author?
B. The other author X who is being "critiqued"?
C. The specific text in which this appears.

Next Post BEH, a parallel or converse..

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:05 PM, <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Akiva Miller <kennethgmil...@juno.com>:
> On layl shavuos people consume coffee and snacks in order to stay up
> and learn
>
> While on layl seder we may davka NOT eat after the afikoman nor
> drink after 4th cup of wine - except water [some are meiqel allowing
> tea/coffee]
>
> So this led me to believe that Hazal did NOT want to force us to stay up
>
> RATHER, so long as we ARE up they set up a program of what to
> learn/discuss, but they did NOT really expect us to stay up.
>


It may be significant that the Shulchan Aruch, following in the steps of the
Rosh, defined the chiyuv on Pesach night as being "ad she-tacht'fenu sheina"
(although the Tosefta, which seems to be the earliest source for this
halacha does not include this stipulation) - and the Mechilta at the end of
Bo, expressing the shita of R' Eliezer, ties the chiyuv only until the end
of the zman mitzvas pesach - without an emphasis on the totality of the
night, which provides a greater possibility for a very brief fulfillment of
the chiyuv.  On the other hand, the Magen Avraham's explanation of staying
up all Shavu'os night as being a takana for k'lal Yisroel oversleeping on
the day of Matan Torah implies that the significance of the minhag is to be
up very early as a result of not sleeping.

Perhaps one can therefore draw a distinction between the two practices by
saying that the late night of Pesach is nimshach after the evening, to show
our excitement running over from our discussions prior in the evening, while
the late night of Shavu'os is nimshach after the next morning, to show our
anticipation for that which is yet to come.  A nafka mina of this
distinction could be that one who is unable to stay up all night on Shavu'os
should perhaps make it a point to learn for the latter part of the night,
rather than for the former part (practical issues aside).

If it could be demonstrated that the staying up late on Pesach night was
based on looking forward to the yetziah the next morning, my argument would
be countered, but I haven't heard anyone say this.

Going back to the original question of why - in the 21st century - the
minhag is much more prevalent than the halacha, a strong factor could be the
communal nature of the former, in which people reinforce each other in its
observance.  The familial nature of the latter means that there does not
exist an infrastructure for the encouragement of the fulfillment of this
halacha.

Joshua Meisner
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