Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 94

Wed, 07 Apr 2010

• 1. Re: Piyyut question (vayehi bachatzi halaila) (Yisrael Dubitsky)
• 2. Tircha yeteira (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Beshogeg-Bemeizid (j...@when.com)
• 4. Re: Beshogeg-Bemeizid (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: [Areivim] WDGW (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: intelligent design (Micha Berger)
• 7. Volunteers? (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Chessed shebigvura (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Volunteers? (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: Volunteers? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Volunteers? (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: Volunteers? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Chessed shebigvura (Micha Berger)
• 14. Non-Issur in a Taaroves (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 15. Re: Volunteers? (Rich, Joel)
• 16. Re: Volunteers? (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Volunteers? (Rich, Joel)

RMS asks:

> It is supposedly by Yanai, and appears in a krova by him.  However, it

also appears in the middle of the krova for shabbat hagadol by rav

yosef tov elem.  Any history/discussion of how/why it appears there?


See  http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21706&;st=&pgnum=281

no. 4691
Basically: printers' error. And that happened, I would say, since R YTE
wrote the piyyut that ends with hasal sidur pesah and that occurs right
before vayehi bahatzi halailah in the hagaddah.

Yisrael Dubitsky
7 lemispar benei yisrael, Jerusalem
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Over yom tov someone told me of a psak not to have non bnei brit at a yom
tov dinner even if food preparation was not an issue, due to tircha yeteira
of serving ?  Anyone have a working definition of tircha yeteira on a micro
level which would support this(but not disallow almost any extra effort in
other venues?)
KT
Joel Rich

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 Today, what determines whether serious averas such as being mechalel shabbos or intermarriage are considered beshogeg or bemeizid?
If a Jew does sin bemeizid, is he considered to be on a lower or higher level than your typical goy? 

-Josh S.   


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On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 11:16:21AM -0400, j...@when.com wrote:
: Today, what determines whether serious averas such as being mechalel
: shabbos or intermarriage are considered beshogeg or bemeizid?

I assume you're asking about Tinoq sheNishba, which the gemara says makes
their chilul Shabbos (Shabbos 68a) and their entering the miqdash while
tamei (Abayei, Shevuos 5a) as being "only" beshogeig.

I'm complicating the matter by intentionally adding a second question:
1- What determines who is a Tinoq sheNishba (TsN)?
2- What determines who is beshogeig?

This topic is visited here often. The gemara's case of TsN is ingnorance
of the halakhah. There are acharonim who are meiqilim, at least for
someone of the dinim about how we treat others (eg the differences in
how we treat apiqursim or mechalelei shabbos befarhesia if they were
culpable) for people who know the halakhah, but were raised with a bias
against following it. ("Outmoded", "*They* do...", etc...)

Alternatively, it's possible people in this latter class, who know
halakhah but were biased by background not to think it applies to them,
as acting beshogeig without being formal Tinoqos sheNishbe'u. Looking
at the definition of TsN may not be enough to answer the original
question.


Does this apply to intermarriage? Historically, we would say no -- a
person had to be pretty assimilated not to realize that intermarriage is
a major problem. OTOH, say someone's dad or step-mom is a non-Jew. And if
not theirs, then half their friends' parents. R"L in the US, this is the
situation the current generation of 20-somethings are coming from. Can
we really say the current generation of non-O Jews is inculcated with
knowledge of the issur?

The other question is who is to judge?

WRT oneshim (beis din shel matah), we require a person to recieve and
acknowledge hasra'ah to rule out their acting beshogeig.

WRT culpability, that's really only between the person themselves and
the Bochein kelayos valeiv. How do we know someone else's motivations
well enough to know whether they really knew it was assur?

The question for us is balancing dan leqaf zekhus with uvi'arta hara'ah
beqirbekha when it comes to how to relate to these people. And I think
that since there are such high communal walls between O and the rest
of the Jewish world, with their behavior having minimal impact on what
we consider acceptable (not "permissable", but normal breaking of the
rules), that personally I would side toward dan leqad zekhus.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 11:00:39AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: The Bas kol said he was right! God agreed with him. 

Arguably, and that's the way it's most frequently taught. Among later
acharonim -- the same kind of consensus as assuming universal hashgachah
peratis -- process would trump bas qol.

As I remind people every time we revisit this -- there is a bas qol
that said "vehalakhah kebeis Hillel" that a rishon could take as proof
against this thesis. Although R' Yehushua is leshitaso -- he didn't give
credance to that BQ either.

So, HQBH could have been saying:
- R' Eliezer was correct, but not to the exclusion of R' Yehoshua -- eilu
  va'eilu. However, the bas qol may not have been ruling out "vehlakhah
  keR' Yehoshua".

- As a rule of thumb, R' Eliezer is more likely to be correct -- but
  not here. (R' Nissim Gaon, Berakhos 19a, first opinion).

- The bas qol was just testing the chakhamim (RNG, 2nd opinion). Or,
  HQBH would not declare the emes at the expense of R' Eliezer's kavod
  (Tosafos, Eiruvin 6b, first answer).

RHM assumes the 2nd answer in that Tosafos or the Or Sameiach's position
(Yesodei haTorah 9:4). They hold that "halakhah keBeis Hillel" is only
followed because had we been brave enough, acharei rabim lehatos would
have appplied anyway. It didn't contravene process, it afirmed it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 07:08:31PM +0200, Arie Folger wrote:
: My US$0.02: What people usually think of when debating intelligent
: design is not whether or not creation was done by G"d, but rather,
: whether there is incontrovertible scientific evidence that the world
: could not have developed to the present stage barring the invisible
: guiding hand of the Designer / Intelligence. Basically, these are
: people who argue that organisms dsplay irreducible complexity, etc.
: That is a branch of science that is controversial, and there is less
: evidence for that then some want to believe. I understood that it is
: that train of thought the conference speakers rejected.

FWIW, I think that using Information and Autamata Theory, we could get
a rigorous definition of complexity, one in which Von Neumann's lemmas
about automata would apply to life.

So perhaps we couldn't say that there are automata in living beings
that are literally irreducible. However, we can say they are negligably
unlikely.

To translate... 

Irreducible complexity: This is the idea you likely enountered in some
Jewish book about the eye or photosynthesis. Systems that need multiple
parts to work, where any one missing part would render the whole system
usesless. Michael Behe, the microbiologist who coined the term in
question, used similar claims but on the protein level.

He also uses a mousetrap as an example. Mousetraps have 5 parts: the
wooden base, the spring, the loop, the catch, and the bar that holds
the loop down. If any one of those parts doesn't work, it won't catch
mice.

Since there is no such thing as a useful 80% of a mousetrap, how could
it have evolved?

The problem, as described by Kenneth Miller ("Only a Theory"):
    [An old friend] struck upon the brilliant idea of using an old, broken
    mousetrap as a spitball catapult, and it worked brilliantly... It
    had worked perfectly as something other than a mousetrap... my rowdy
    friend had pulled a couple of parts -- probably the hold-down bar and
    catch -- off the trap to make it easier to conceal and more effective
    as a catapult... [leaving] the base, the spring, and the hammer. Not
    much of a mousetrap, but a helluva spitball launcher... I realized
    why [Behe's] mousetrap analogy had bothered me. It was wrong. The
    mousetrap is not irreducibly complex after all.

IOW, it is possible for a creature to have the equivalent of a spitball
catapult that chases away mice. Once it evolved into a trap, it no
longer needed the catapult anyway.

There are middle steps, because the pieces of the eye or components that
do photosynthesis could have been repurposed.

Where I think work could be done is that if I understand Von Neumann's
lectures correctly, there is a ceiling to the probability of such simpler
systems that use similar parts existing. The odds of an eye evolving all
at once is negligably small. But I think he shows that the probability
of there being a usefull "spitball launcher", that it (or any other
middle step) were to evolve, and then evolve from that to the eye MUST
be smaller than the probability of that one time event.

John Von Neumann is one of the fathers of Computer Science. He gave a
series of lectures on Automata Theory in 1966. I found a text version of
the 4th lecture at http://cba.mit.edu/events/03.11.ASE/docs/VonNeumann.pdf

In short: The information contained in an automaton is the minimum
number of bits required to describe how to construct it from its
components. Any more information than necessary for the automaton to
function is not counted.

So, you might think that a tricycle is more complex than a bicycle. But
if it would take more bits to describe a bicycle that balances than a
working tricycle, it contains more information.

The result is a measure of relative complexity -- of two systems made of
the same components, we can speak of which is more complex and how much
more.

In lectures 2 and 3 he discusses how systems that do not reach a certain
complexity threshold are bound to produce systems less complex than
themselves. Lectures 4 and 5 are aimed at showing that evolution could
still be possible. However, he notably does not apply what he wrote
elsewhere about probabilities.

This also only discusses evolution. What about design in the universe as
a whole -- the fact that the laws of physics are such that we could have
evolved to begin with? This touches on the "anthropic principle".

By definition, the big bang ending with the universe in a low
entropy state is highly improbable. (That's translating the words "low
entropy".) The precision at which the fundamental constants have to be
at or close to current values would require many bits of precision just
for any form of atom, molecule and chemistry to be possible. Etc...

And it does bother physicists. To the point that many string theorists
now posit an unseen multiverse, in which an infinity of universes exist,
and therefore the presence of a universe in which thinking beings is
possible is unsurprising. We would only be around in those universes
which could produce us in order to ask "why here, where everything is
conducive to life?".

John Wheeler suggested that universes that don'e produce observers
aren't stable from a quantum mechanical point of view. Thus, QM has an
infinite number of possible universes, but it could only collapse into a
state where there are conscious observers. Thus explaining why the
universe "just happens" to be right for us".

In short, to eliminate G-d from their explanation, many physicists posit
their own scientifically indetectible infinities.

The construction of scientific theories to account for it makes it very
hard to say that the evidence for design isn't scientific in nature.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

A (too often?) heard response to a call for "volunteers" for community activities is "it can be done by others" so I shouldn't give up my learning time.

1. Does a ben yeshiva or a baal habayit who takes learning seriously and
understands that "spare time" is learning time (to the extent possible)
have a permanent pass from these activities as long as there are others who
don't have the same view?

2. Assuming such an individual has unique skills such that the activity
cannot be done by others, is the schar they receive for that activity equal
to that which they would have received for learning or is it less but they
still have to do it?



KT
Joel Rich
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Micha's signature:
> Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back
> a Chesed for another?

Quibble
I might be mistaken but I think this question better refers to G'vurah
sheb'chessed as opposed to vice versa

The simple answer is EG not giving money as tzedakkah to an
Alcoholic Panhandler

EG
Once I was confronted by a panhandler near NYC's Port Authority.
He asked for a hand-out for a meal.

Instead of giving him some cash, I treated him to a burger at a nearby
"burger joint" and paid for his dinner - which included a cup of coffee.

The g'vurah here was the act of supervising him that he did not go to
a liquor store to buy some ripple or other alcoholic beverage.

The chessed was treating him to a real meal.

KT
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Rich, Joel wrote:
> __2. Assuming such an individual has unique skills such that the 
> activity cannot be done by others, is the schar they receive for that 
> activity equal to that which they would have received for learning or 
> is it less but they still have to do it?
>
>  
>
Why do you think that schar can be ordered? Couldn't it be that you get 
different schar for act a and b, but they are not commensurable?

David Riceman

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 02:22:01PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
: Rich, Joel wrote:
:> 2. Assuming such an individual has unique skills such that the 
:> activity cannot be done by others, is the schar they receive for that 
:> activity equal to that which they would have received for learning or 
:> is it less but they still have to do it?

: Why do you think that schar can be ordered? Couldn't it be that you get 
: different schar for act a and b, but they are not commensurable?

It is for this reason I would not agree with the basic assumption behind
RJR's original question:
> 1. Does a ben yeshiva or a baal habayit who takes learning seriously and
> understands that "spare time" is learning time (to the extent possible)
> have a permanent pass from these activities as long as there are others
> who don't have the same view?

If these activities are mitzvos, including providing for the tzibbur,
then perhaps this ben yeshiva or baal habayis is simply wrong.

Mashal: Suppose someone went to a doctor, who found that for someone with
their medical history, spinach would be the healthiest of all foods. It
would bolster their low iron count, provide roughage, etc...

Does that mean that that person should only eat spinach?

We need a balanced diet of mitzvos as well, no?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

 

: Rich, Joel wrote:
:> 2. Assuming such an individual has unique skills such that the :>
:> activity cannot be done by others, is the schar they receive for that
:> :> activity equal to that which they would have received for
:> learning or :> is it less but they still have to do it?

: Why do you think that schar can be ordered? Couldn't it be that you get
: different schar for act a and b, but they are not commensurable?


It is for this reason I would not agree with the basic assumption behind RJR's original question:
> 1. Does a ben yeshiva or a baal habayit who takes learning seriously 
> and understands that "spare time" is learning time (to the extent 
> possible) have a permanent pass from these activities as long as there 
> are others who don't have the same view?

If these activities are mitzvos, including providing for the tzibbur, then perhaps this ben yeshiva or baal habayis is simply wrong.

Mashal: Suppose someone went to a doctor, who found that for someone with
their medical history, spinach would be the healthiest of all foods. It
would bolster their low iron count, provide roughage, etc...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

==================================================================
I'm not sure I understand the ordered/different/commensurable distinction
so let me restate- which one makes HKB"H "happier" or is he equally happy
(e.g. Mordechai leaving learning to save the Jews)?

As to being wrong-on what basis would one overrule the statement that if it
were naaseh al ydei acheirim, one should not leave one's learning?  Would
not the sum total of HKB"H's "happiness" be maximized by someone who would
be snoozing doing the job?

KT
Joel Rich
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On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 03:45:08PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: I'm not sure I understand the ordered/different/commensurable
: distinction so let me restate- which one makes HKB"H "happier" or is he
: equally happy (e.g. Mordechai leaving learning to save the Jews)?

I am arguing G-d wants different things from different people at different
times. I object to the notion that "talmud Torah keneged kulam" means
that one should seek Torah primarily and only fit other mitzvos into
the time where one's yeitzer hara doesn't allow one to learn. "Lakol
zeman va'eis lekhol cheifetz..." "Gadol talmud *shemeiv liydei maaseh*."
"Hevei zahir bemitzvah kalah kevachamurah." Etc...

Finding the one best mitzvah and sticking with it is like trying to live
of spinach. It may have the vitamins and minerals you need most, but to
live, you need a balanced diet -- not only those particular vitamins.

The only possible exception would be the Rashbi or Gra (or...), for whom
Torasam umenasan to the extent that every moment away from learning was
physically painful to the point that they even slept minimal quantities
the rest of us couldn't survive

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 05:49:28PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Micha's signature:
:> Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back
:> a Chesed for another?

: Quibble
: I might be mistaken but I think this question better refers to G'vurah
: sheb'chessed as opposed to vice versa

My translation: the chessed that can be inherent in gevurah.
Your translation appears to be: the gevurah that is part of the kelal of
    chessed.

: The simple answer is EG not giving money as tzedakkah to an
: Alcoholic Panhandler

The point of the question is not the simple answer, but to spend the day
looking for situations where this truth holds, where I did or did not
live up to the idea.

It's a hislamdus tool, not a Q&A session.


Another example: If you always catch a toddler who is stumbling around
before they fall, the child will never learn to walk independently. When
we discuss Hashem's gevurah, that's the mashal that comes to mind. Or,
letting a teen make a painful mistake (as long as the consequences are
temporary) because they need to learn independence.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

Reviewing sources on the issues we discussed before Passover

Rema YD 66:10   re: Dam Dagim and Dam Adam
"Ho'eel u-meedeenah shri, eino osseir Taaruvto"

See Rema's mareh m'qomos

See also Shach 16, GRA 14

Now see Rema O"Ch 653:1 re: kitniyyos that have fallen into a tavsheel.
Baer Hetev 2
Shaarei T'shuva 2
MB 8,9

[As per Hayei Adam
Quoted by Kaf Hachayyim and MB 8 any visible kitniyyos must be
removed. I'm not convinced Rema himmself is machmir

Rather I suggest that Kitniyyos a humra is the halachic equivalent of
dam that is assur mishum mar'is ho'ayin.

IOW in both cases the ch'shash is only a pre-taaroves ch'shash.

BUT
Also see
Rema O"Ch 664:1 who prohibits a taaroves containing Hardal before Passover,
Ba'er Etev 2
MB 6

v'tzorich Iyyun

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 


Finding the one best mitzvah and sticking with it is like trying to live of
spinach. It may have the vitamins and minerals you need most, but to live,
you need a balanced diet -- not only those particular vitamins.

The only possible exception would be the Rashbi or Gra (or...), for whom
Torasam umenasan to the extent that every moment away from learning was
physically painful to the point that they even slept minimal quantities the
rest of us couldn't survive

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
So you are saying if one is learning and sees a person in need of
assistance unloading his donkey, he may stop learning to do it even though
there is another individual equidistant who was staring off into space and
day dreaming and is now moving towards the donkey to assist?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 04:22:07PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: So you are saying if one is learning and sees a person in need of
: assistance unloading his donkey, he may stop learning to do it even
: though there is another individual equidistant who was staring off into
: space and day dreaming and is now moving towards the donkey to assist?

I'm saying there is no blanket answer.

All of our limited resource questions involve complicated
decisionmaking. You can't put all your eggs in one basket. You have to
balance what is objectively most important and what motivates you to
actually act. It's like trying to decide how much money to give various
tzedaqos, or how much to divide between tzedaqah and hidur mitzvah, or...

Your example is poor, because the problem isn't about the one-off
decision. Perhaps in this case, since he is redundant, he ought to
learn. That's different than making a general lifestyle decision to
minimize mitzvos maasiyos in favor of learning.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

 

 


Finding the one best mitzvah and sticking with it is like trying to live of
spinach. It may have the vitamins and minerals you need most, but to live,
you need a balanced diet -- not only those particular vitamins.

The only possible exception would be the Rashbi or Gra (or...), for whom
Torasam umenasan to the extent that every moment away from learning was
physically painful to the point that they even slept minimal quantities the
rest of us couldn't survive

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
So you are saying if one is learning and sees a person in need of
assistance unloading his donkey, he may stop learning to do it even though
there is another individual equidistant who was staring off into space and
day dreaming and is now moving towards the donkey to assist?
KT
Joel Rich
===============================

Oops- and that HKB"H would be equally happy with this result?
KT
Joel Rich
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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
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Thank you.



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