Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 81

Mon, 22 Mar 2010

• 1. Re: Selling bourbon before pesach (Zev Sero)
• 2. soft matza (Goldmeier)
• 3. Who first Said It? 10 (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 4. Re: popcorn (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: soft matza (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: soft matza (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: soft matza (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: popcorn (Zev Sero)
• 9. re,popcorn/kytnyot. (martin brody)
• 10. Re: Selling bourbon before pesach (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Selling bourbon before pesach (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: popcorn (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: Ratzuy l'Rov (Arie Folger)
• 14. Selling whiskey/bourbon (Tal Moshe Zwecker)
• 15. Re: re,popcorn/kytnyot. (martin brody)
• 16. Re: Selling bourbon before pesach (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: Selling bourbon before pesach (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
 
> I have long wondered about these drinks, and how they are made, and why
> it is common to hear them referred to as "chometz gamur". I tried looking
> on Wikipedia under "whiskey" and "distillation", and other articles, and
> they really did not explain anything to me.

The grain is kept in a hot confined place until it ferments and turns into
a mush.  It is then put in a still and boiled; the steam that rises from
it (which has a high percentage of alcohol because alcohol's boiling point
is lower than that of water) is caught and condensed.  The "sweat" of
chametz has exactly the same status as the chametz itself.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Is there any problem preventing an ashkenazy Jew from eating the soft 
Yemenite matza's (very similar to a "Lafa") on pesach?
Can it be eaten as matza for the mitzva? Even if not, can it be eaten in 
general during Pesach or must it be treated like possible chametz 
because maybe it was not fully baked inside?

Kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier

Assuming Cosmetics are 
A) Nifsal mei'achilas kelev
and
B) not being ingested

Who first said they are not allowed to be used on Passover?

EG
Sefer Hasdei Avraham [R Blumenkrantz Z"L]
Page 359 insists that:
"[The above] ... Does Not Mean exactly the way people seem to understand."


AFIK The Rosh does apply "achsh'veih" by eating haemtz that is nifsal
mei'achilas kelev
But
The Hasdei Avraham as the cited states that ashsh'veih is not only
about eating, rather if an an alcoholic Might eat it it is achsh'veih
EVEN for hana'ah! What is the earliest source for this lamdus? When
did this first get applied to merley shmearing cosmetics?

Certainly Posqim - such as RYDS who permitted all toothpastes - could
not have subscribed to this sheetah.


Zissen Pesach
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

RZS:
>If they're be'ein then they're not in ta'aroves. So you still can't
>Ieat the beans, but you can eat the potatoes and meat and eggs from the
>Ihamin, but not the chickpeas.

Is there any evidence that the Rema holds from this distinction?         
He just says:
"If qitniyyos fall into a tavshil, the tavshil is muttar.". He does not
specify that one has to fish out the qitniyyos b'ayein - the way one
needs to fish out issur mamash when itfalls into a tavshil and its ta'am
is batteil.

Unless there is another Rema on Topic either in Darchei Moshe or in his
Shu"t I would not presume this humra absent any statement to the contrary.

ZP
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 10:27:47PM +0200, Goldmeier wrote:
: Is there any problem preventing an ashkenazy Jew from eating the soft 
: Yemenite matza's (very similar to a "Lafa") on pesach?

Yemenite matza may be a problem, since some do include salt in the
recipe.

However, Syrians and many other communities do make soft matzos, and in
fact one Flatbush bakery makes them available on-line --
www.softmatza.com.

I asked RHSchachter about it, and he held there is no problem. In fact,
he off-the-cuf speculated that perhaps it's a more authentic choice for
koreikh as it can actually be wrapped.

R' Aviner holds similarly, that there is no problem.

This topic comes up annually, in part because I myself use some soft
matzah at the seder. One question that has yet to be resolved is when
Ashkenazim stopped using soft matzos ourselves.

 From the archive, see
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=S#SOFT%20MATZAH
and the next topic, as well as
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=C#CRISPY%20MATZAH
and the following topic.

As for minhag... The question is when Ashkenazim switched and why.
Quite likely the whole concept of crispy matzos dates back to the 18th
cent CE, and may have more to do with increasing production than
avoiding chametz concerns. (Ignore my speculation about the Council
of Nicea imitating crispy matzvos in the Xian rite, that was disproven
in concersation)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Goldmeier wrote:
> Is there any problem preventing an ashkenazy Jew from eating the soft 
> Yemenite matza's (very similar to a "Lafa") on pesach?
> Can it be eaten as matza for the mitzva? Even if not, can it be eaten in 
> general during Pesach or must it be treated like possible chametz 
> because maybe it was not fully baked inside?

The Yemenite one in particular has another problem: it's dusted with
kitniyos flour.  Other Sefardi matzot, though, I can't see a problem
with.  Just don't expect them to be too similar to laffas; from what I
understand they're very dense and difficult to get down, and they get
stale very quickly.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Rabbi H Schachter said it's fine to eat-he didn't mention l'mitzvah either way. Clor
KT
Joel Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Goldmeier
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 4:28 PM
To: A High-Level Torah Discussion Group
Subject: [Avodah] soft matza

Is there any problem preventing an ashkenazy Jew from eating the soft Yemenite matza's (very similar to a "Lafa") on pesach?
Can it be eaten as matza for the mitzva? Even if not, can it be eaten in
general during Pesach or must it be treated like possible chametz because
maybe it was not fully baked inside?

Kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier
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rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> RZS:
>> If they're be'ein then they're not in ta'aroves. So you still can't
>> Ieat the beans, but you can eat the potatoes and meat and eggs from the
>> Ihamin, but not the chickpeas.
> 
> Is there any evidence that the Rema holds from this distinction?         
> He just says:
> "If qitniyyos fall into a tavshil, the tavshil is muttar.". He does not
> specify that one has to fish out the qitniyyos b'ayein - the way one
> needs to fish out issur mamash when itfalls into a tavshil and its ta'am
> is batteil.

He doesn't have to say that.  How can the kitniyos themselves, which
were assur, suddenly become mutar just by falling into a tavshil?
If they can be fished out of course they must be.  The chidush in his
words is that they do not make the tavshil assur.  And in the next
sentence he says the same about oil; if it falls into a tavshil, even
though it can't be fished out, it doesn't asser the tavshil.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

If they're be'ein then they're not in ta'aroves.  So you still can't eat
the beans, but you can eat the potatoes and meat and eggs from the hamin,
but not the chickpeas.

Zev Sero

Indeed, but if the beans were mashed up in the stew they would be OK.
Kitnyot are batel b'rov. SA OC 453.

Martin brody
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On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 07:24:12PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: From: <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
: > Did he mean
: > A. Whiskey is not hametz 
: > OR
: > B. Corn-based bourbon is not hametz?

: He meant A.

Does he also matir beer? AFAIK, the primary difference is that beer
includes brewer's yeast, but given that whisky/ey ferments, it is
relying on airborne yeast anyway. As would be any leavening of 19+
min non-matzah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 04:57:10AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: Can someone direct me to a simple explanation of how these drinks
: are made? For example, do the grains merely soak in water until the
: water has absorbed their flavor? If so, then this would not really be
: chometz gamur, but more of a "kavush k'mevushal" status. Or are the
: grains actually dissolved into the water?

A mash is made of grain and water. This is then consumed by yeast, which
converts the carbs in the grain to alcohol and carbon dioxide. In sparking
wine and bear, that CO2 is kept in, which is why they have bubbles.

This is called fermenting (in this context, fermenting tea is a totally
different thing); but if you want to avoid alcohol, start thinking
of it as giving it to a fungus to digest.

The yeast can be consciously added, or you can wait for enough airborn
yeast to collect. See my previous post about beer (added) and whisky/ey
(airborn).

The yeast die when the mixture reaches around 12% alcohol. That's why
standard wines are at about that level. With good environment control,
you can inch that up a bit, so you may see 13% or even 16% wine.

To get a high alcohol drink one needs to distill the liquid. This means
bringing it to some temperature above 70 deg C, so that alcohol will
boil, but below 100 deg C, so that water does not. The vapor will lack
the water and therefore be more alcoholic than the original. It is then
is cooled and collected.

Beer is so similar to bread, that Scientific American once carried an
article theorizing that bread originated as a failed attempt to make
beer; perhaps during a water shortage. Something crudely like beer can
occur naturally, when grain gets wet and the mixture ages enough to get
the local animals tipsy. So, the theory suggested that beer was refined
off that discovery, and bread an accident off that side-line.

To be more balanced, the question of which came first, and thus why
Qayin's descendents bothered going into farming, is still open. It's not
impossible that we owe cities and civilization to beer. But if not, to
bread.

Either way, all this shows how related beer and whisky/ey are to
leavened dough.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

RZS
> He doesn't have to say that.  How can the kitniyos themselves, which
> were assur, suddenly become mutar just by falling into a tavshil??

Simple it was never "assur". If gebructhts were assur the 8th day would
not alllow for a kula either!

Rather, it's a g'zeira based upon a cheshash and the Rema is stating
that we are not gozeir on a taaroves.

Unless we have evidence somewhere that the Rema says MUST fish it out it's
not the straight read of the Rema here and there is no doubt that there is
no reason to be mahmir on the Minhag - which is the Rema's salient point.

Unlike issur mamash there is no reason to be m'haleiq. And if the Rema
meant to be m'chaleiq he would have said so.

Since he is introducing the prcinciple that the g'zeira is inapplicabe,
why fish for Humra?

Or as the Hoq Yaakov states: why be machmir on a humra!?

Zissen Pesach
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

R'nTK asked:
> How does this square with the notion that Cyrus was Esther's son
> (or grandson)? I guess not everyone agrees that he was.

Darius the First  / the Great (who came after Darius the Mede; the
former was the first Persian Darius).

Those who argue that the Megillah played out after binyan bayit sheni
consider Seder 'Olam not to be actual history, but a historical
midrash, IOW mostly history, but with crucial deviations from fact
THAT WOULD BE OBVIOUS to the audience in those days. Furthermore, it
is argued that this kind of historiography is based on Tanakhi
precedent, as Ezra was, so this argument goes, wrote his book in a way
that strongly implies a nonfactual revisionist history, while in fact
properly reporting actual history. For more details on this theory,
listen to shiurim by R'Menachem Leibtag on Daniel, Ezra and Megillat
Esther, all downloadable from YUTorah.org.

> However the entire "gefeel" of the Megillah is that the Jews were in
> galus, that it was churban time.  The fear that they might be wiped
> out altogether would surely have been mitigated if some of them
> were already  living in Eretz Yisrael with the BHM'K rebuilt.  It just
> doesn't sound  right.

Why? After all, EY was every bit as much part of the Persian and
Medean empire as were India and Abyssinia (Hodu and Kush).

BTW, one of the supporting proofs of R' Leibtag's thesis is that there
is a Midrash that considers the vessels Jews drank from during the
feast to have been from the captured vessels of the beit hamiqdash.
However, as there is absolutely no disagreement about the fact that
the Megillah took place after Cyrus, therefore, the tradition about
the vessels in the Megillah is actually factually impossible, and
therefore must be taken to be a moral, rather than a factual
statement. Why is it impossible? Because Divrei HaYamim and Ezra both
state (with the same pessuqim, this is a textual hint that Ezra is the
continuation of DhY) that Cyrus released kol kelei beit haShem.
According to R' Leibtag, therefore, we must take the tradition about
the keilim as a moral statement, it is as if they were desecrating the
holy  vessels, perhaps because they had declined to return to EY and
the beit hamiqdash.

R' Leibtag's approach is the most convincing I have seen to date, for
dealing with the "missing 165-168 years."

Interesting stuff.

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Burgeoning Jewish Life in Central Europe
* Raising Consciousness by Dressing Babies Outrageously
* 25 Jahre zu lebenslang fuer den Moerder des Herrn Gerstle
* From Skinhead to Orthodox Jew

I may have misunderstood but I think the issue here is that what we have is a taaruvos chametz - a mixture of chametz and other ingredients 

While we certainly do not eat taaruvos chametz on Pesach there are opinions
that one who owns taaruvos chametz as opposed to chametz gamur is not
transgressing the prohibition of bal yerah and bal yimatzeh and therefore
while you cant eat it you wouldnt need to sell it
 

Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
Director Machon Be'er Mayim Chaim
Chassidic Classics in the English Language
www.chassidusonline.com
chassidusonl...@gmail.com
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Noam Elimelech, Kedushas Levi, Pirkei Avos more!
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On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 8:22 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> martin brody wrote:
>
>> If they're be'ein then they're not in ta'aroves.  So you still can't eat
>> the beans, but you can eat the potatoes and meat and eggs from the hamin,
>> but not the chickpeas.
>>
>> Zev Sero
>> Indeed, but if the beans were mashed up in the stew they would be OK.
>>
>
> Yes, nobody's saying differently.
>
>
> --
> Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
> z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
>                                                    - Margaret Thatcher
>

Try getting somebody to say that a product with sugar and corn syrup is OK,
for example.


Martin Brody
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Micha Berger wrote:

> The yeast die when the mixture reaches around 12% alcohol. That's why
> standard wines are at about that level. With good environment control,
> you can inch that up a bit, so you may see 13% or even 16% wine.

Also hardier strains of yeast.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

RZS:
> The grain is kept in a hot confined place until it ferments and turns
> into a mush. It is then put in a still and boiled; the steam that rises
> from it (which has a high percentage of alcohol because alcohol's boiling
> point is lower than that of water) is caught and condensed. The "sweat"
> of chametz has exactly the same status as the chametz itself.

Tangentially:
I was pondering this.
There seems to me three related cases

1. Gelatin from Pigskin
2. Whiskey from "mush" or "mash"
3. Grape Juice from concentrate

Does anyone else see a common denominator here?

[Followup email. -micha]

RRW
> Or as the Hoq Yaakov states: why be machmir on a humra!?

See Hoq Yaakov 453:6

The ThD is take machmir to require shishim...

OTOH the HY states all you need is Rove [sorry Beatles!]

Clearly if the pieces had to be picked out, Rove would not be a
prerequisite at all, just pick out the Rov of Qitniyyos and all that's
left is taamo v'lo mamasha

Ela mai, rove is need otherwise it's not a taaroves

Ayein sham
QED 

Zissen Pesach
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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