Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 79

Sat, 20 Mar 2010

• 1. Re: timtum halev (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 2. Re: timtum halev (Zev Sero)
• 3. Timtum halev (Beth & David Cohen)
• 4. BMG Poskim and Roshei Yeshiva Release Letter (j...@when.com)
• 5. Women Rabbis (j...@when.com)
• 6. Re: Timtum halev (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: timtum halev (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Women Rabbis (Saul Guberman)
• 9. Re: Women Rabbis (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: timtum halev (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: timtum halev (David Riceman)
• 12. Re , popcorn (martin brody)
• 13. popcorn (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Re: kitniyot (Ben Waxman)
• 15. Re: Selling bourbon before pesach (Ben Waxman)
• 16. chumrot of Pesach (Eli Turkel)
• 17. Re: Women Rabbis (Rich, Joel)

I was taught when I was young [midrash? Chassidic story?] that if
one dropped a coin and a poor person found it, that he gets credit
for tzedakkah

And that this case is unique sui generis IOW that Micha is right across
the board that kavvanah is king - except by tzedakkah.

Apparently RET was giving the converse, that positive machshava does
not count. This part I don't get - I would see HKBH is mitztareif
machshavah l'maaseh, especially when there is a maaseh, albeit flawed.

------------------------


tatzil mimaves"

How would we frame the machloqes between rationalists and mystics on
tzedakah?

GS
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Eli Turkel wrote:
> Some have held that one gets a reward for good intentions (against the Kuzari)
> IMHO one exception would be charity.
> If one gives charity to an imposter who is not poor it would seem that he has
> not accomplished the mitzvah

And vice versa: if one loses money and a poor person finds it, one gets
the mitzvah no matter how bitterly one lamented the loss.

Micha Berger wrote:
>: If one gives charity to an imposter who is not poor it would seem that he has
>: not accomplished the mitzvah

> Why not?
> He hasn't improved the world outside him, but he did improve his soul.

See gemara Bava Basra 8b and forward.  If one gave tzedaka to the gabai
and he gave it to aniyei akum, one gets no mitzvah and no sechar.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

"(He answers that the spiritual gains in obeying the mitzva of following
the Sages counteracts the harmful consequences of the rare instances
where the Sages may be wrong.) The point relevant to this discussion is
the Ran's presumption that anything forbidden (things or actions)
carries direct spiritual damage regardless of intent. Also relevant, of
course, is the role of innocent intent (if one may generalize from
intent of following the Sages--maybe not?) of counteracting the damage.
Zvi Lampel"

This then would seem to come down to the ultimate question as to the purpose
of mitzvot.
If the purpose is perfect us spiritually and bring us as close as possible
to Hashem, then totally inadvertent non or incorrect performance of a mitzva
should have no effect on the realization of that goal.
Perhaps, what (I have called) the mechanistic interpretation of timtum halev
really says that in the real world there is no such thing as totally
inadvertent.
However, I still have trouble with the non-Jewish wet nurse. Perhaps, since
the parents are responsible for the aveirot of a child, they're lev is
somehow affected by the child's ingestion of milk that stemmed from treifot.
Frankly, I am not convinced by my own hypothesis.

Shabbat shalom
David I. Cohen
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"Does anyone really need to be told that this is permitted?  Why would 
one think otherwise?

Yitzchok Levine"

 
"At the same time, the roshei yeshiva and poskim of North America?s Largest
yeshiva, Beth Medrash Govoha in Lakewood, NJ, have signed a letter stating
that it is permitted according to halacha to participate in the census and
there is no concern regarding the prohibition against counting the Jewish
people. (See Shemos 30:12 where the source of the issur is recorded: ?When
you take the count of the Bnei Yisroel to determine their numbers, each man
shall give an atonement pledge for his soul to G-d, when you count them.
Thus there will be no plague among them when you count them.?)" 

- the source you provided. 

In the census letter is also states that by law we are obligated to complete the census. 


-Josh S. 


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The Rabbi of my community (Rabbi Elie Weissman of the Young Israel of
Plainview) said in his speech last shabbos that "any Rabbi worth his salt
will tell you that a woman becoming a Rabbi is not a halachic issue; it is
an hashkafic one". I have heard however from other sources that it indeed
is an halachic issue. Which statement is correct? 

-Josh S. 
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On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 03:25:43PM -0400, Beth & David Cohen wrote:
: However, I still have trouble with the non-Jewish wet nurse. Perhaps, since
: the parents are responsible for the aveirot of a child, they're lev is
: somehow affected by the child's ingestion of milk that stemmed from treifot.

My suggestion is that since people know, the chld can learn about it
when they're older, and the whole concept of tereifos becomes less alien
to them than it should be.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was taught when I was young [midrash? Chassidic story?] that if
> one dropped a coin and a poor person found it, that he gets credit
> for tzedakkah


Rashi Vayikra 5:17
Sifri ibid
Yalkut Shimoni Devarim 24:937 ("ki tiktzor")


> Apparently RET was giving the converse, that positive machshava does
> not count. This part I don't get - I would see HKBH is mitztareif
> machshavah l'maaseh, especially when there is a maaseh, albeit flawed.

It's an explicit gemara, Bava Basra 9b.  "Yirmiyah said before HKBH:
RBSO, even when they bend their inclination and seek to do tzedaka
before you, make them stumble into unworthy people, so that they will
not receive any reward."


BTW, "machshava tovah HKBH metzarfah lemaaseh" only works if there is
a machshavah-less maaseh to which He can join it!

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 15:24, <j...@when.com> wrote:

>
>
> The Rabbi of my community (Rabbi Elie Weissman of the Young Israel of
> Plainview) said in his speech last shabbos that "any Rabbi worth his salt
> will tell you that a woman becoming a Rabbi is not a halachic issue; it is
> an hashkafic one". I have heard however from other sources that it indeed
> is an halachic issue. Which statement is correct?
>
> -Josh S.
>

It is both a halachic issue & hashkafic issue.  See the RCA blog for good
posts about this issue by Rabbis Helfgot, Klapper, & Rothstein.  They have
taken away a lot of the heat & discuss more of the issues.

http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=761
http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=811
http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=827
http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=804
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Josh S. j...@when.com:
> The Rabbi of my community (Rabbi Elie Weissman of the Young Israel of
> Plainview) said in his speech last shabbos that "any Rabbi worth his salt
> will tell you that a woman becoming a Rabbi is not a halachic issue;
> it is an hashkafic one". I have heard however from other sources that
> it indeed is an halachic issue. Which statement is correct?

Lich'ora it's a slam dunk

Yore Yore is OK halachically
Yadin Yadin is NOT OK

Simple hilluq - eid echad neeman b'-issurim

OTOH The S. Lieberman responsum posits that yore yore is a stepping
stone to dayanus, so even THAT is a problem.

IMHO though, one does NOT need s'micha to quote wideley accepted halachic
texts [EG SA, MB Shach, Taz]

So AISI, NOW [pun?], a woman can offer halachic information based upon
a text, and easily punt the difficult cases to an "av beis din" which
is what many pulpit rabbis do now anyway.

Have a Good Shabbos
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 03:40:12PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
:>Apparently RET was giving the converse, that positive machshava does
:>not count. This part I don't get - I would see HKBH is mitztareif
:>machshavah l'maaseh, especially when there is a maaseh, albeit flawed.
: 
: It's an explicit gemara, Bava Basra 9b.  "Yirmiyah said before HKBH:
: RBSO, even when they bend their inclination and seek to do tzedaka
: before you, make them stumble into unworthy people, so that they will
: not receive any reward."

This is soseir Berakhos 6a and Qiddushin 40a, and therefore it's discussed
by the Nimuqei Yoseif and acharonim. I found this in
<http://dafyomi.co.il/bbasra/insites/bb-dt-009.htm> from Kollel Iyun
haDaf ad loc:

   2) ONE WHO SEEKS TO DO GOOD

   QUESTION: The Gemara teaches that if a person is worthy, Hash-m
   [sic -micha] causes people who deserve charity to come to him for
   Tzedakah. If a person is not worthy, people who do not deserve charity
   will come to him. Rabah derives this from the verse, "May they be
   caused to stumble before You; at the time of Your anger, act against
   them" (Yirmeyahu 18:23), in which Yirmeyahu asked Hash-m to cause
   the sinners of the people to stumble. Rabah explains that Yirmeyahu
   asked Hash-m that even at a time when the people would overcome their
   evil inclinations and seek to do charity, Hash-m should send them
   recipients who do not deserve charity so that they will not receive
   reward for their acts of charity.

   The Acharonim ask that the Gemara in Berachos (6a) and in Kidushin
   (40a) teaches that when a person intends to do a Mitzvah but is
   prevented from doing it (due to an Ones, a circumstance beyond his
   control), he is rewarded as if he had done the Mitzvah. Why, then,
   would it help Yirmeyahu's purpose if the people gave charity to those
   who were undeserving of charity? The givers still had intention to
   do the Mitzvah of Tzedakah, and therefore they should receive reward
   for that intention. (SUKAS DAVID, DEVAR MOSHE)

   ANSWERS:

   (a) The DEVAR MOSHE suggests that the sins of the givers themselves
   would make them unfit to give charity to deserving causes.
   Consequently, when undeserving people come to them for charity,
   it would not be considered an Ones, for it would be a result of
   the givers' own sins that they would not be able to give charity to
   worthy causes.

   (b) The NIMUKEI YOSEF in Bava Kama (6b of the pages of the Rif)
   cites the RAMAH who explains that a person who gives charity to
   an undeserving recipient receives reward only when he is not aware
   that the recipient is undeserving. When the giver is aware that the
   recipient is undeserving, then he does not receive any reward for
   his act. (I. Alsheich)

The Devar Moshe says the lack of reward is for whatever took them out
of the realm of megalgelim zekhus a"y zakai.

Notice the Nimuqei Yoseif's answer directly parallels my take on timtum
haleiv depending upon the person ever knowing that what they ate, or
what the women from whom they once nursed ate, was treif. So even if
I'm mistaken about this perat, I feel comfortable saying I'm heading in
a solid direction.

Both take it for granted that the kind of causality interfering with an
expression of justice RZS asserts here (kedarko, as I believe it's part
of Chassidus) would be fundamentally problematic.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

PS: Can anyone tell me more about the Sukkas David and Devar Moshe?

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
mi...@aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was taught when I was young [midrash? Chassidic story?] that if
> one dropped a coin and a poor person found it, that he gets credit
> for tzedakkah
>
> And that this case is unique sui generis
See Tosefta Peiah 3:8 for another (and even more extreme) example - - 
shich'cha.
>  IOW that Micha is right across
> the board that kavvanah is king
>   
ibid. 1:4, though it's less than obvious (see the end of the Tosefta there).
> Apparently RET was giving the converse, that positive machshava does
> not count. This part I don't get - I would see HKBH is mitztareif
> machshavah l'maaseh, especially when there is a maaseh, albeit flawed.
>   
David Riceman

<<Not only is popcorn not a problem, but nor is corn on the cob as long as
it is roasted on a bar b q for example and not boiled, for example. Tinned
corn kernels would be a problem too, of course
Martin brody.>>

I don't understand this. Out minhag is not to eat fresh kitniyot so why
would
popcorn be any better then eating fresh peas.
Eli Turkel

Then don't eat it. It's not everybody's minhag. And the comparison to peas
does not hold water (excuse the seasonal pun).  I don't think that peas on a
barbeque works very well. They do need water to process.We can eat barbequed
wheat though. Unlike peas, corn was not in the original"kitnyot" list, and
even if one has some restrictions, there's plenty room for variations and
lenience.
Martin Brody
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<<Cooked* kitniyos.  Where do you see anything about not eating raw ones?>>

Quoting R. Shimon Eider " One cannot eat legumes on Pesach"
Poskim who discuss an ashkenazi eating by a sefardi for Pesach mention
that one should avoid the kitniyot being served and otherwise it is okay.

Asking arounf no one has heard of a minhag of ashkenazim eating raw kitniyot.
One of the reasons given for the minhag of kitniyot is that the fields of grains
and kitniyot were near each other and so frequently the seeds of each
got mixed up.
That would apply equally to raw kitniyot as to flour.
Besides if raw kitniyot are allowed why would anyone thing that
derivatives besides
flour eg oils would be prohibited

-- 
Eli Turkel

Last week's Tzohar dealt with the Canola issue.

The ossirim state:

1) The seeds come in a pod, so they look like kitniyot (Avni Nezir).
2) The seeds grow in fields in which wheat was raised in previous years.
This could lead to some mixing which could cause leavening during the
processing (B'ohel shel Torah).

The mattirim state:
1) We don't add to the gezira or the minhag (Avnei Nezir, Shulhan Aruch
Harav, Igrot Moshe)
2) The plant is inedible unless processed (Amma Devar, Rav Morechai Eliyahu)
3)  Before Pesach the seeds are a special type of sifting to get out any
wheat (which is easy to do given the differences in color).
4) If there is any seed left over it is bateil in 60.
5) The rapseeds are cleaned in steam which doesn't allow leavening. Since
there is only a safek if there is any wheat seeds anyway, this is permitted.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>


> 2 quick questions on kitniyot
>
> 1. What is the problem with Canola (Canadian oil, low acid)
> Rapeseed is never used to make flour only oil and it is recent product

To answer your question with a question - the only ingredients in matza is
wheat and water and that is no hametz (I hope). How can that be?

I don't know the details, frankly. I know that he examined the process of
how it is done today and that was his conclusion. I spoke with his brother
in law (also a rav) and got the info from him.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name>


Ben Waxman wrote:
> Oh yes. Rabbi Shabbtai Rappaport did a hakira on how whiskey is made today
> and concluded that it is not hametz at all.

Huh?  How can that be?  The only ingredients are barley and water!

My daughter is an OT in a charedi school. Some of the teachers told
her that they dont wet their fingers before turning pages of the hagada because
that would cause the starch in the pages to come on their finger and
become chametz.

Do others know of such a chumra? The people I asked had not heard of it

-- 
Eli Turkel

The Rabbi of my community (Rabbi Elie Weissman of the Young Israel of
Plainview) said in his speech last shabbos that "any Rabbi worth his salt
will tell you that a woman becoming a Rabbi is not a halachic issue; it is
an hashkafic one". I have heard however from other sources that it indeed
is an halachic issue. Which statement is correct?

-Josh S.
==================
Our story so far:
1.The greatest minds on the internet ( on Hirhurim  etc. :-)) can't agree
on what defines " a Rabbi".  Having failed to come to an agreement on what
is being discussed, they proceed to yell at each other in ever louder
voices on the theory that the louder one yells, the more convincing they
are.  So the answer is both or neither	depending on how you define Rabbi.
GO TO 1(Fortran joke)
KT
Joel Rich
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