Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 78

Fri, 19 Mar 2010

• 1. Re: several questions (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 2. Re: re Popcorn (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: Selling bourbon before pesach (Ben Waxman)
• 4. Letter from Rav Shlomo Miller Regarding Bugs in Fish (Yitzchok Levine)
• 5. BMG Poskim and Roshei Yeshiva Release Letter Regarding Permissibility of Participating in 2010 Census (Yitzchok Levine)
• 6. Re: re Popcorn (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: BMG Poskim and Roshei Yeshiva Release Letter Regarding Permissibility of Participating in 2010 Census (Micha Berger)
• 8. hat and coat (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: hat and coat (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: hat and coat (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 11. Rabbi Herschel Schacter on Davening on Airplanes (Yitzchok Levine)
• 12. Re: Rabbi Herschel Schacter on Davening on Airplanes (Rich, Joel)
• 13. timtum halev (Eli Turkel)
• 14. kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 15. Even "trivial minhagim"... (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: timtum halev (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Selling bourbon before pesach (Zev Sero)

 RTM Zwecker writes:

<What is the purpose of the bride wearing a heavy veil (dech tikel) ?

Tznius 

it is considered not tznius for people including the chasan to see and gaze
at the bride (since everyone is looking towards during the chuppah I know
many rebbes who wont officiate or accept brachos at weddings if the veil is
see thru)>

     And yet, at the kabbalas panim, when the bride is the full center of attention (since the chasan is not there), she sits without any facial covering.
     Furthermore, though the g'mara says that it is not the halacha, there is an opinion that it is permitted to gaze at the kalla "k'dei lchab'va al balah."
     Also, if tz'nius is the issue, what about zivug sheini, where there is no badeken, and as far as I know, no dektuch?
     It certainly would seem to be a violation of "d'racheha darchei no'am"
     for the kalla to be covered to the extent that she can not see where
     she is going, and must be led and directed by "seeing-eye" parents. 
     And it would certainly seem to be cruel and unusual punishment for the
     kalla to be denied the right to see her own marriage ceremony.  
EMT    
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So the conclusion is that corn and non-quasi chumetz is kitynot according
to some poskim, not kitnyot according to others. They join a list of many
other products that some eat on Pesach and others don't.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: martin brody 

  Source for what?
  Corn not being Kitnyot? R.Yitzchak Abadi, amongst others.Besides, it was
  discovered after the original proscriptions. I think the Chaye Adam added
  potatoes too, but does anybody agree with that?

  For it being somewhat kitnyot but OK to eat as long as it isn't quasi chumetz? Rav Kook.
  Hope that was what you were asking.
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Oh yes. Rabbi Shabbtai Rappaport did a hakira on how whiskey is made today
and concluded that it is not hametz at all. You can't use it on Pesach but
it is certainly permitted to sell it, even for those who don't sell hametz
gamur.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Akiva Blum" <yda...@gmail.com>

> > > Since bourbon must be legally at least 51% maize, is it
> > considered chametz
> > gamur that many will not sell over pesach, or is it a ta'arovoes?
> >
>
> Nu?

Please see 
http://matzav.com/letter-from-rav-shlomo-miller-regarding-bugs-in-fish

Yitzchok Levine 

Please see 
http://matzav.com/bmg-p
oskim-and-roshei-yeshiva-release-letter-regarding-permissibility-of-partici
pating-in-2010-census

Does anyone really need to be told that this is permitted?  Why would 
one think otherwise?

Yitzchok Levine 

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 07:06:53AM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: So the conclusion is that corn and non-quasi chumetz is kitynot
according to some poskim, not kitnyot according to others. They join a
list of many other products that some eat on Pesach and others don't.
: 
: Ben
:   ----- Original Message ----- 
:   From: martin brody 
: 
:   Source for what?
:   Corn not being Kitnyot? R.Yitzchak Abadi, amongst others.Besides, it
:   was discovered after the original proscriptions. I think the Chaye Adam
:   added potatoes too, but does anybody agree with that?
: 
:   For it being somewhat kitnyot but OK to eat as long as it isn't quasi chumetz? Rav Kook.
:   Hope that was what you were asking.
: _______________________________________________
: Avodah mailing list
: Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
: http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 05:34:31AM -0400, Yitzchok Levine wrote:
: Does anyone really need to be told that this is permitted?  
: Why would one think otherwise?

Does the census use a machatzis hasheqel?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

: I recently heard a mp3 talk on YUTorah by R. Benjamin Yudin about
: R. Dovid Lifshitz. He mentions that once a bochur visited R. Dovid's
: apartment . R. Dovid was eating breakfast in the kitchen without a
: jacket. When R. Dovid noticed the bochur, he immediately put on a jacket
: (hat I don't remember). It appears from this anecdote that R. Lifshitz
: would not have appeared in public without a jacket.

It is brought down that the Chatam Sofer was makpid that no one
outside of the immediate
family should see him without a coat.
I found it hard to believe a similar story about hats. Roshe Yeshiva
that I know gave shiur
wearing a Yarmulka. Micha can tell us about R. Lifscihtz.

However, some rabbonim wore a high type of yarmulka including I believe, RMF
and R. Lifschitz (please confirm). Hence, they may have felt this was equivalent
to a hat. Certainly one could not put a hat on top of this kind of
yarmulka as many
do for tefilla or bentching. Hecne, the story that R. Teitz brings
would be a proof
from R. Gifter and others but not from RMF.

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:27:56PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: However, some rabbonim wore a high type of yarmulka including I believe, RMF
: and R. Lifschitz (please confirm)...

I can confirm that both of them did. R' Dovid would enter the room, and
replace his hat with the yarmulka that was folded in his inside breast
pocket. One smooth motion, head never uncovered.

RDL:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d6/Rav_Dovid_Lifshitz.jpg
    (picture in YU, in front of whiteboard)
RMF and RYHutner:
    http://www.tog.co.il/Data/Mahamarim/mamarim534_RO.jpg
The Alter of Slabodka:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Nosson_Zvi
    _Finkel_.jpg
R' Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld:
    http://www.ohrdaniel.com/uploads/3/6/9/8/369853/8994022.jpg?231x294
R' ZP Frank:
    http://www.ohrdaniel.com/uploads/3/6/9/8/369853/6541865.jpg
R' Meir Simchah haKohein
    http://www.ohrdaniel.com/uploads/3/6/9/8/369853/1630124.jpg
R' Shimon Shkop
    http://jewish.by/images/legacy/grodno.jpg
etc, etc, etc...

But it wasn't a rabbonisher thing. It's what the word "yarmulka" meant
in Litta and Poland. See
http://img.youtube.com/vi/TD8IDGRtHfE/0.jpg
or the fellow on the left in
http://www.geh.org/fm/mismis/m199711060001.jpg
and some pre-war Poilishe bacherim playing chess
http://www.sztetl.org.pl/getfile2.php?class=image&;m=&x=1000&y=800&id=15292

Something like a black army "garrison" cap. Unlike the norm in much of
Germany, where a yarmulka wasn't as high, had sides and a flat top. In
any case, in many areas the standard yarmulka was not a skullcap (and
not a kippah, a dome, in shape).

But because of that, I question RET's theory:
:                             Hence, they may have felt this was equivalent
: to a hat.

What they wore they wore as a yarmulka.

What it really shows is that this discussion of whether one needs a
second head covering was a non-issue in those communities. Otherwise,
they would have worn a yarmulka that could fit under a hat.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

elitur...@gmail.com
> However, some rabbonim wore a high type of yarmulka including I believe,
> RMF and R. Lifschitz (please confirm). Hence, they may have felt this
> was equivalent to a hat.

FWIW
Yekkes had similar high yarmulka's for sha"tz, baal korei etc.

When I was Rav in wash heights - Inwood - in shul I wore a chazzan style
hat for every shabbos + YT; and on weekdays - the high yarmulka

Note: Yekkes did NOT wear a tallis over the head. At Breuer's baale
battim wore hats or caps.

Rav Schwab and a few other chashuver rabbonim did wear their taleis'm over
their heads, I never did even in my own shul [except during duch'ning]

GS
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 From http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2010/rsch_airplanes.html


Davening on Airplanes

Several times a year I visit Eretz Yisroel. When 
I take a night flight I notice that many men 
sleep for five to six hours, and then recite 
Shema and daven Shacharis after waking up, as if 
they were at a seven o?clock minyan back in the 
United States. However, because the airplane is 
flying from West to East and traversing several 
time zones, the zman Krias Shema keeps getting 
earlier and earlier, following the zman Krias 
Shema on the ground over which the airplanes is 
flying[1]. Often, by the time many of the 
passengers wake up and get ready to start 
shacharis, the zman on the ground below is 
already after chatzos and well into the zman of mincha.

Another common mistake people make is regarding 
davening with a minyan. The Talmud emphasizes the 
importance of tefillah btzibur; and one who 
davens with a minyan stands a much better chance 
of having his prayers answered than one who lacks 
a minyan. However, it is highly improper for the 
chazzan of a minyan on an airplane to shout at 
the top of his lungs to enable the other 
mispalelim to hear him over the airplane noise, 
and thereby wake up all the passengers around 
him. It is true that there is a halachic 
principle of kofin al hamitzvos, i.e. that beis 
din has an obligation to force people to observe 
the mitzvos even when they?re not interested in 
doing so, but this only applies when pressuring 
an individual will result in his becoming 
observant. However, when Orthodox Jews disturb 
non-observant Jewish passengers with their 
davening, the non-observant passengers still 
remain non-observant and now just have another 
point about which to be upset with the Orthodox. 
The practice of the Orthodox passengers under 
such circumstances appears simply as an act of 
harassment. Rather than having accomplished the 
hidur mitzvah of davening tefillah btzibur, they 
have violated lifnei iver by causing the 
non-observant passengers to become more 
antagonistic towards shemiras hamitzvos. The 
shouting tone of voice employed by the shaliach 
tzibbur to overcome the noise on the airplane 
clearly does not constitute a kavod hatefillah.

The halacha states that when traveling, if it is 
too difficult to stand for shemoneh esrei even 
the ?amidah? may be recited while seated. On a 
short flight of an hour and a half to Canada, it 
is more correct to daven the entire tefillah 
while still buckled in, in a sitting position. On 
the long flight to Eretz Yisroel it is healthier 
not to sit the entire time; walking about 
somewhat helps the blood circulation in one?s 
legs. As such, there is nothing wrong with 
standing for shemoneh esrei, provided that 
there?s no turbulence at that time. However, it 
is still not proper to gather a minyan together 
near the washrooms, disturbing all the other 
passengers and the stewardesses. As much as 
various Torah giants of our generation have 
expressed their opposition to such minyanim on 
airplanes[2], their message has not yet been 
accepted. We wish everyone a chag kasher 
v?sameach, and all those traveling to Eretz 
Yisroel should have a safe trip, but keep in mind 
? these minyanim are shelo b?ratzon chachamim!

[1] Editor?s note: 
<http://www.chaitables.com>Chaitables.com 
calculates the zemanei tefillah for your flight 
given your departure and arrival locations and times

[2] Rav Shlomo Wahrman ( She?eiris Yosef  vol. 7, 
siman 3) quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach 
(Halichos Shlomo, page 75), Rav Moshe Feinstein 
(Igros Moshe Orach Chaim vol. 4 siman 20), Rav 
Ovadiah Yosef, and Rav Shmuel Wosner all 
objecting to minyanim on airplanes that disturb other passengers
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As much as various Torah giants of our generation have expressed their
opposition to such minyanim on airplanes[2], their message has not yet been
accepted. We wish everyone a chag kasher v'sameach, and all those traveling
to Eretz Yisroel should have a safe trip, but keep in mind - these minyanim
are shelo b'ratzon chachamim!

 ===========================================
While generally true, I've been on several Continental flights where the
staff has graciously allowed the use of the back galley (which is one
moderate sized contiguous space) for minyan when it is not in use for
serving meals. IIUC this would meet the objections raised.
KT
Joel Rich
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Some have held that one gets a reward for good intentions (against the Kuzari)
IMHO one exception would be charity.
If one gives charity to an imposter who is not poor it would seem that he has
not accomplished the mitzvah

-- 
Eli Turkel

2 quick questions on kitniyot

1. What is the problem with Canola (Canadian oil, low acid)
Rapeseed is never used to make flour only oil and it is recent product

2. Anyone know why tuna fish in water is listed by the OU as for kitniyot only
in previous years only tunafish in oil was so listed


-- 
Eli Turkel

I don't know about the rest of you, but I lack the patience to sing the
entire Dayeinu, all 15 stanzas, to that "Dai, dai-, -einu, dai-, dai-,
einu..." tune. So, we tend to only bother every fifth stanza or so.

However, even something as late and as trivial as this may have
qedushah!

From Y-mi Berakhos 67b-68a, in a discussion of things that beis din
decreed and was ratified in BD shel maalah:
    R' Avun besheim R' Yehoshua ben Levi: Even maaser [in these days,
    when ein rov yosheveha aleha]. As it says (Malakhi 3:10) "Bring all the
    maaser[, so that there may be foor in My house... would I not open
    the windows of heaven and pour for your a berakhah ad beli dai]"

    What is "ad beli dai"?

    R' Yosi bar Shim'on bar Ba besheim R' Yochanan: Something that is
    impossible to say about it "enough" is a berakah.

    R' Berachah veR' Chelbo veR' Aba bar Ilai [68a] besheim Rav: until
    your lips tire of saying "dai".

So it would seem there is value to a tune that thanks Hashem for all the
berakhos he did for us during yetzi'as Mitzrayim that tires out our lips
saying "dai"!

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
mi...@aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 05:23:59PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Some have held that one gets a reward for good intentions (against the Kuzari)

Izhbitz (including R' Tzadoq) holds one ONLY gets reward for
intentions. After all, whether one's intentions become actions isn't up
to you. I'm not saying I hold of this understanding of bechirah chafshi,
just discussing the "some have held". See also

See RYGB's comment <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol08/v08n044.shtml>
and my <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol17/v17n012.shtml#14>.

: IMHO one exception would be charity.
: If one gives charity to an imposter who is not poor it would seem that he has
: not accomplished the mitzvah

Why not?

He hasn't improved the world outside him, but he did improve his soul.

The Rambam values 100 nedavos of $1 over one nedavah of $100. And the
nosein gets more than the meqabeil. And R' Aqiva taught Turnus Rufus
that Hashem made poor people for the sake of our giving tzedaqah.

I could build an argument that the iqar is the act of giving, not the
gift.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

Ben Waxman wrote:
> Oh yes. Rabbi Shabbtai Rappaport did a hakira on how whiskey is made today
> and concluded that it is not hametz at all. 

Huh?  How can that be?  The only ingredients are barley and water!

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 78
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