Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 76

Thu, 18 Mar 2010

• 1. Re: several questions (T6...@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Ilanot Tobot/Tobim (T6...@aol.com)
• 3. Re: several questions (Harry Maryles)
• 4. re,popcorn (martin brody)
• 5. Re: several questions (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: popcorn on Pesach (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: several questions (Harry Maryles)
• 8. Re: Selling bourbon before pesach (Akiva Blum)
• 9. popcorn (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: popcorn on Pesach (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 11. Who Said it First? 7 (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: several questions (Micha Berger)
• 13. Nissan III (Yitzchok Levine)
• 14. Re: re,popcorn (Daniel Israel)
• 15. Re: popcorn (Eli Turkel)
• 16. Hat and jacket (Dov Kaiser)

 
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" _kennethgmiller@juno.com_ 
(mailto:kennethgmil...@juno.com) 


>  3. What is the purpose of the bride wearing a heavy veil (dech
> tikel)  [--RET]

Why wear a veil at all? I always thought it had something to do  with 
Yaakov not realizing that he was marrying Leah. If so, a heavy veil makes  much 
more sense than a see-thru one.

Akiva  Miller





>>>>>
Picking  UP the veil, or rather, having the groom place the veil on  the 
bride himself, comes from the scurvy trick that Lavan played on Yakov.   The 
bedeken ensures that the chasan sees the kallah before the ceremony and  
makes sure there has been no substitution.
 
But we see here -- from the fact that Leah was heavily veiled when Yakov  
married her -- that the custom of having the bride veiled at the wedding is  
very ancient indeed, and originally not even (exclusively) a Jewish  custom. 
 The reason for it?  Don't know, but I can speculate.   What I said before 
(my guess): to avoid having the riffraff stare at the kallah,  avoid an ayin 
hara.  Also maybe, to protect the maidenly shyness and  modesty of a demure 
young girl, who is unaccustomed to being the cynosure of so  many eyes.
 

--Toby Katz
==========


--------------------  

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What I myself have noticed is that many words related to nature are both  
masculine and feminine, comes up in Chumash from time  to time, words like 
shemesh and even (stone) and eretz.  Sometimes the  same word is used with 
masc and fem verbs in the same pasuk, and Rashi will  comment on it, bringing 
examples from elsewhere in Tanach of the word being  sometimes masc and 
sometimes fem.  Wish I could think of an example right  now.  

--Toby Katz
==========





-------------------- 

From: JosephMosseri  <joseph.moss...@verizon.net>
>>Simon Montagu asked about Ilanot tovim vs tovot.
> I was reviewing hilchot birkat ha'ilanot, and was surprised that it says
> "ilanot tovot", not "ilanot tovim", although in every other context that I
> can think of "ilan" is masculine. Do any mefareshim raise this question?

Here is my thought on this:
Based upon old manuscripts of HaRaMBaM the original berakhah was:
".......beriyot tovot...."

The word ilanot never appeared in the berakhah.

It may be that over time to make the berakhah more specific the word
beriyot was replaced with ilanot and no one thought of adjusting the
gender of tovot.  <<

Joseph




>>>>>
 
 


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From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" kennethgmil...@juno.com




> 3. What is the purpose of the bride wearing a heavy veil (dech
> tikel) [--RET]

Why wear a veil at all? I always thought it had something to do with Yaakov
not realizing that he was marrying Leah. If so, a heavy veil makes much
more sense than a see-thru one.
-----------------------------------------
?
The custom of the bride wearing a?veil at?her wedding comes from the bible
- Genesis?(24:65). VaTikach HaTzaif VaTiskos - And she took her veil and
covered (her face). This is what Rebecca did when she was informed by
Eliezer that the man she saw was Isaac, the man she was about to marry.
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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> So I gotta question.  I look at most online sites that talk about pesach,
> and I note that popcorn is generally considered assur for Ashkenazim.
> My question is why:  why should we outlaw air-popped popcorn, or microwave-
> popped popcorn, if it takes way less than 18 minutes to pop the popcorn?
> We don't outlaw all wheat products, for instance...

Not only is popcorn not a problem, but nor is corn on the cob as long as
it is roasted on a bar b q for example and not boiled, for example. Tinned
corn kernels would be a problem too, of course.

Martin Brody

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 07:05:43AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: The custom of the bride wearing a?veil at?her wedding comes from the
: bible - Genesis?(24:65)...

It's documented in the chumash but I think it's older. Lavan was quite
the traditionalist when it came to marriage. Eg. "In our place, it is
not done to marry of the younger before the older."

It seems to me that married women covering their hair was also general
Semitic practice, as in minhag Benei Sheim, before required by the
Torah. Which would explain why the Torah only mentions it back-handedly,
by telling us about uncovering the sotah's.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 08:59:05AM -0400, Jonathan Baker wrote:
: My question is why:  why should we outlaw air-popped popcorn, or microwave-
: popped popcorn, if it takes way less than 18 minutes to pop the popcorn?
: We don't outlaw all wheat products...

Qitniyos never leaven, so why would qitniyos before 18 min be any
different than qitniyos after? Whatever of the reasons offered was the
driving force behind qitniyos, it would seem to exclude "you may apply
the same rules to flour" -- since the rules for qitniyos go beyond those
of flour.

This may be an argument against the sevara that qitniyos were banned
because they used the same bags and silos as wheat, since any qitniyos
made within 18 min of getting wet would then be permissable -- as any
flour lost within it would be backed on time.

OTOH, which Ashkenazi makes his own matzah, relying on his own oven's
ability to completely bake dough in less than 18 min? We don't use flour
outside a matzah bakery altogether. Maybe the wider ban on qitniyos is
related to that, rather than the 18 min time limit we set in a matzah
bakery.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fullfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

--- On Wed, 3/17/10, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:


On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 07:05:43AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: The custom of the bride wearing a?veil at?her wedding comes from the
: bible - Genesis?(24:65)...

It's documented in the chumash but I think it's older. Lavan was quite
the traditionalist when it came to marriage. Eg. "In our place, it is
not done to marry of the younger before the older."

It seems to me that married women covering their hair was also general
Semitic practice, as in minhag Benei Sheim, before required by the
Torah. Which would explain why the Torah only mentions it back-handedly,
by telling us about uncovering the sotah's.
-------------------------------------
?
I've always wondered about that back-handed reference to covering hair as a
source for requiring?married women to cover their hair. It seems to me that
the custom of covering hair as a sign of modesty was more or less
universal? and -?as you point out predating the Torah. IOW it is
not?specificly Jewish. 
?
That would indicate to me that hair covering is based at least in part on
the prevailing Tznius customs of the time and the place. Customs were in
place in most civilized societies throughout history. When Chazal derived
their Halachos of hair covering hair from the Sotah ordeal this was the
case. 
?
In our time and in our place (Western civilization of the 21st century))
hair covering is not at all considered a practice of modesty. Women in
western culture do not cover their hair at all (except for fashion purposes
or for purposes of warmth in cold climates). 
?
I'm not saying this as a possible Heter for women to not cover their hair.
I just wonder if Chazal were alive today - would they have drawn the same
inferences from the Sotah ordeal and have come up with the same
requirements?
?
The fact that is that in the late 19th and early 20th century many of the
married religious women of the Litvishe Kehillos abandoned the practice of
hair covering. This led Rabbi Epstein to permit making Brachos in front of
them ...which?seems to indicate that there is room to speculate about that
possibilty.
?
Rabbi Michael Broyde has written a lengthy discussion where he is melamed
Zechus for those MO women who do not cover their hair. Unfortunatley I do
not have a URL.
?
HM


Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org 
> [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Ben Waxman
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:13 PM
> 
> The psak I got last year was that it does not have to be sold at all.
> However, if you really want a qula, ask me about the psak 
> that I got about
> whiskey.
> 
> Ben
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Akiva Blum" <yda...@gmail.com>
> 
> > Since bourbon must be legally at least 51% maize, is it 
> considered chametz
> gamur that many will not sell over pesach, or is it a ta'arovoes?
> 

Nu?

<<My question is why:  why should we outlaw air-popped popcorn, or microwave-
popped popcorn, if it takes way less than 18 minutes to pop the popcorn?
We don't outlaw all wheat products, for instance, just those that involve
water being in contact with the wheat grains or flour.  Which is not the
case by popcorn.>>

There is in fact a discussion whether the 18 minute rule applies to kitniyot.
R Zevin brings opinions that wouldn't allow matzot baked with all the hidurim
if the matzot were from corn rather than wheat.

-- 
Eli Turkel

JJB:
> So I gotta question. I look at most online sites that talk about pesach,
> and I note that popcorn is generally considered assur for Ashkenazim.
> My question is why:  why should we outlaw air-popped popcorn, or microwave-
> popped popcorn, if it takes way less than 18 minutes to pop the popcorn?
> We don't outlaw all wheat products, for instance...

Look the entire Minhag of Qitniyyos [as we apply it anyway] is frought
with contradictions and inconsistencies.

A "Who was the first who said that" American Maize Corn is Qitniyyos
and
B "Who was the first who said that" peanuts are Qitniyyos?
[RMF didn't think so!]

The general answer AISI is a hashqafic version of the halachic principle
of "davar sheyeish lo matirin"

In halachah such things are never bateil. Why? Just wait and it's Kosher

Similarly re: Passover people are machmir about all kinds of issues.
Why? Just wait 8 days and it's Kosher

Disclaimer: I'm neither endorsing this attitude nor protesting it. Just
describing the phenomenon AIUI.

My 2 prutos!
Zissen Pesach
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

I just reviewed Mishnah Taanis in preparation for a possible siyyum and
2 modern terms came to mind...

A Who first shortened "Marcheshvan" to just "Cheshvan"?
B Who first shortened. "Honetz" to just "Neitz"? [The Heih is part of
the shoresh]

ZP
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

[And "kesaqin" to "vasiqin"? -micha]

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 07:57:02AM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: I've always wondered about that back-handed reference to covering hair
: as a source for requiring?married women to cover their hair...
: That would indicate to me that hair covering is based at least in part
: on the prevailing Tznius customs of the time and the place...
...
: The fact that is that in the late 19th and early 20th century many
: of the married religious women of the Litvishe Kehillos abandoned the
: practice of hair covering. This led Rabbi Epstein to permit making
: Brachos in front of them ...which?seems to indicate that there is room
: to speculate about that possibilty.

But also at most in part. It's considered a gezeiras hakasuv, and thus
das Moshe. Even the AhS, who says that because of ubiquity, a man may say
Shema in the presence of a married woman with uncovered hair, says that
ubuiquity is "baavoseinu harabim". I see in his words the exact opposite
of the conclusion you draw from them -- even where its commonplace,
it is still just as assur.

I suggested in the early days of this list that perhaps "sei'ar be'ishah
ervah" is not the original source of the issur, but an effect. Because
anything normally covered becomes ervah, and because a married woman's
hair is supposed to be covered deOraisa, it thereby becomes ervah.

It is unclear whether the use of "deOraisa" in Kesuvos 72a is literal,
RYBS reportedly compared it to the words of the Sifri. The braysa has
"af al pi she'ein ra'ayah ledavar, zeikher ledavar, shene'emar..."

But straight peshat is as I wrote, the gemara considers it a gezeiras
hakasuv.

: Rabbi Michael Broyde has written a lengthy discussion where
: he is melamed Zechus for those MO women who do not cover their
: hair. Unfortunatley I do not have a URL.

For people who have accounts on Tradition, it's at
http://www.traditiononline.org/news/article.cfm?id=105511
RMJB on RYBS's opinion including a discussion of the Sifri is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n077.shtml#17

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I have posted RSRH's essay Nissan III at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/nissan_3.pdf

IMO, this essay gives some marvelous insights into Yahadus in general 
and into Pesach in particular.  While I suggest that one will benefit 
from reading the entire essay, you may find Rav Hirsch gives as a 
prerequisite for learning Torah on page 59 of interest.

Do not sit down at the feet of your fathers and your teachers as long 
as you do not stand with them on one and the same soil, the soil of 
the foundation that was laid with Yetzias Mitzraim. Leave the great 
volumes unopened if you do not from the outset bring with you the 
basic sense in which their contents should be studied and can be 
comprehended. Yirah kodemis l'Chochma  is written over the gate that 
leads to the Holy of Holies o(the knowledge of the Law; fear of God 
issued the passport to wisdom!

On page 61 he writes

But, what should be said to the members of this fallen generation 
who, in their apostasy, fancy themselves to be the "progressives," 
and deride the loyal elders as "backward?" To them nothing should be said!

Please see the rest of this essay for more on both topics.

Yitzchok Levine 
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martin brody wrote:
> Not only is popcorn not a problem, but nor is corn on the cob as long as
> it is roasted on a bar b q for example and not boiled, for example. Tinned
> corn kernels would be a problem too, of course.

Source?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Jonathan Baker <jjba...@panix.com> wrote:
>> <<My question is why: ?why should we outlaw air-popped popcorn, or microwave-
>> popped popcorn, if it takes way less than 18 minutes to pop the popcorn?
>> We don't outlaw all wheat products, for instance, just those that involve
>> water being in contact with the wheat grains or flour. ?Which is not the
>> case by popcorn.>>

R Zevin  in Hamodaim BeHalacha (p259) has a long discussion on kitniyot.
He brings the Maamar Mordechai that prohibits making matzot from flour from corn
even using all the halachot of wheat matzot, eg 18 minutes.  because people
will confuse it with regular matza.
The Chatam Sofer allowed it in extenuating circumstances if it was baked with
all the halachot of wheat matzah including no salt and "mayim she-lanu".
However, in addition one needed something to indicate that it was not
made from wheat
but corn and so no one would use for the matzah mitzvah.
The Chaye Adam simply brings down that one can bake matzot from
kitniyot and eat them

Eli Turkel

REMT wrote:

 

<2. With regard to wearing hats - why do some were hats during the
dinner at a wedding and even while dancing (and sweating). One is
not saying beracha (independent of recent link that one
doesnt a hat while davening)>
At least in Litvishe circles, this is a fairly recent hanhaga. (I hesitate
to dignify it as a minhag.) Fifty-two years ago, I was present at a wedding
attended by Reb Aharon, Reb Moshe, Reb Ya'akov and Rav Gifter, and all ate
and danced while wearing yarmulkes. I am convinced that wearing the hat
began because in the summer, when there was no coat to check, it was easier
to wear the hat than have the bother of using the coat room -- and the
talmidim saw, and thought it was a hiddur of some kind.

____________________

 

I recently heard a mp3 talk on YUTorah by R. Benjamin Yudin about R. Dovid
Lifshitz.  He mentions that once a bochur visited R. Dovid's apartment . 
R. Dovid was eating breakfast in the kitchen without a jacket.	When R.
Dovid noticed the bochur, he immediately put on a jacket (hat I don't
remember).  It appears from this anecdote that R. Lifshitz would not have
appeared in public without a jacket.  Perhaps one of his talmidim can
confirm.

 

I was once told by a former talmid of R. Shmuel Rozovsky (who, for the
record, wore a grey frak) that R. Shmuel once saw a bochur walking in the
street in Bnei Brak in the middle of summer with his jacket on.  R. Shmuel
called him over, told him to take off the jacket and fold it over his arm
before continuing.  The lesson was that a ben Torah should not go out
without a jacket, but equally should actually wear if it was hot.

 

This also reminds me of something I heard R. Meir Eliyahu Klugman (author
of the Artscroll biography of RSRH) say during a talk when he spoke about
the differences between Yekkes, Litvaks and Chasidim.  He said that the
Chosid wears his hat and jacket when he learns because for him, it is
avodas haShem.	The Litvak, on the other hand, takes off his hat and jacket
to learn because for him, learning is living.  I can't remember what he
said about the Yekke.

 

Kol tuv

Dov Kaiser
                                          
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