Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 72

Mon, 15 Mar 2010

• 1. several questions (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: several questions (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: timtum halev (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 4. Re: timtum halev (David Riceman)
• 5. Re: questions re Mizbeach Adamah and walls of Mishkan (Arie Folger)
• 6. Re: Timtum Halev (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 7. Timtum Halev (Dov Kaiser)
• 8. The Yeshivas and the Seder (Yitzchok Levine)
• 9. Re: questions re Mizbeach Adamah and walls of Mishkan (Zev Sero)
• 10. questions re Mizbeach Adamah and walls of Mishkan (Hankman)
• 11. Fresh Challah for Yom Tov (Prof. Levine)
• 12. motzei pesach (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 13. Re: motzei pesach (Simon Montagu)
• 14. More on the Seder (Yitzchok Levine)
• 15. Re: The Yeshivas and the Seder (Yosef Skolnick)
• 16. Re: motzei pesach (Zev Sero)
• 17. Story About Rav Schwab and the Seder (Yitzchok Levine)

Some questions from recent events in my shul

1. Why is av haracamim not said on the shabbat of the 4 parshiyot.
Onbiously not connected to tachanun since Tzidchadcha is said

2. With regard to wearing hats - why do some were hats during the
dinner at a wedding and even while dancing (and sweating). One is
not saying beracha (independent of recent link that one
doesnt a hat while davening)

3. What is the purpose of the bride wearing a heavy veil (dech tikel)

-- 
Eli Turkel

Eli Turkel wrote:

I can't answer the first two, since I'm not familiar with those
minhagim.  What sort of community is it?

> 3. What is the purpose of the bride wearing a heavy veil (dech tikel)

The gemara calls it a "hinuma", which Rashi says is because it's so
dark under it that she can fall asleep.
 


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Addendum:

I looked over YD 81:7

I could find nothing re: Tinon and timtum in Tur and nosei keilav

OTOH the Rema in SA triggers quite a bit.

See 
    Taz 12 
    Shach, 24,25
    GRA 31:33
    Mishb'zos Zahav 12 who cites a Pri Hadash 26 which I cannot find


The mar'eh m'qomos in Rema cites Ran in the name of Rashba

ZP
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

David Riceman wrote:
> Tal Moshe Zwecker wrote:
>> From: Moshe Feldman <moshe.feld...@gmail.com>
>> a) SA Y.D. 91:7: a Jewish baby technically is allowed to nurse from a
>> non-Jewess, but should not do so because of timtum ha'lev.
> You mean 81:7.
>
> RMB:
> <<But if the people involved didn't know a Jew nursed form a 
> nachriah,this modified position would argue there is no timtum.>>
>
> But that's not what the Rama says.  Here's the Darkei Moshe s.k. 9 
> (which, incidentally, doesn't use the term "timtum"): "The Ran Perek 
> Ein Ma'amidin [7a] and the end of Perek Heresh in Yevamos wrote that 
> there are those who prohibit permitting a child to suckle from a 
> gentile when a Jewish wetnurse is available because the milk of a 
> gentile is <not kosher>.  In the absence of a Jewish wetnurse it is 
> permitted because [the absence of human] milk is dangerous for a 
> child.  The Rashba, however, wrote that there is no halachic 
> distinction between the milk of a Jew and a gentile, but because Jews 
> are by nature merciful and retiring (rahmanim ubayyshanim) their milk 
> has that same status, and hence it is an act of piety to refrain from 
> suckling from a gentile.  Hagahos Ashrei wrote in the second chapter 
> of AZ (#6) that one must warn the wetnurse not to eat carrion 
> (neveilos) and pork and a fortiori not to feed the infant impure 
> things, and he cites as evidence someone whose mother ate idolatrous 
> food (mimin a"z) and this caused him to stray (sheyatza l'tarbut 
> ra'ah) in his later years (Yerushalmi Hagigah 2:1)."
>
> I think it's clear that both the Rashba and the Hagahos Ashrei were 
> worried that milk of non-Jews is physically different than milk of 
> Jews, and endangers the character of those who drink it.  And don't 
> forget, we're talking about drinkers who are too young to study issur 
> vaheter.
>
> David Riceman
>
>
>

R'n TK wrote:
> 1.  How did they fill the Mizbeach , aka the Mizbeach Adamah,  with
> dirt? This mizbeach was hollow and was filled with dirt AIUI  only
> when they camped, presumably to make it more solid and stable.
> But  how did they fill it? Picture a cardboard box, turned upside
> down, with  its open side lying face down on the ground.

Who says there was a top to the box? I always understood (ok,
me'ommedi 'al da'ati) that it only had four sides. However, there is a
Rashi that implied it had at least a partial top, as Rashi talks about
how the eternal fire was transported on the covered altar (it was
covered with a kind of wire mesh to keep the flamable cover away from
the heat).

But I do have another question, which is surely dealt with in the
gemara, but unfortunately, I must admit my ignorance: taking apart and
rebuilding the misshkan must have taken a serious amount of time.
Ditto for filling the mizbeach, especially accoridn  to the views that
it stood 10 amot tall. While they would arrive at destination, after a
desert sojourn, how would they bring the required sacrifices when the
mizbeach wasn't up and running yet?

> How did they hold the walls (sides) of the mizbeach  together?

It was plated in copper/bronze. If that plating was thick (think 2
millimeter, for example), it could be held together by the exterior
metal layer. But of course, I never tried to figure out whether it was
thick, or merely covered in fine sheets of bronze. Note that there are
Rishonim (Ramban is one of them) who raise serious objections against
the commonly accepted measurements of thickness of metal layers,
because they are impossible (not enough silver for each aden, not
enough gold in entire mishkan for either kapporet or one of the gold
boxes Rashi says the aron was made out of). So this needs serious
iyun.


Regarding the humanly impossible erection of the mishkan, R'nTK wrote:

> Was this a one-time miracle in Moshe's honor?  Why did he have
> to do it  himself, anyway?  Why not get several men together to put
> the walls  up?  And can we assume that whenever they took apart
> the mishkan and put it  back together during their travels in the
> desert (other than that first time),  the job was done by groups of
> men rather than a single man?

The Da'at Zeqenim Ba'al haTossafot writes that aron nesse et nosseav
was only a one time event. That, too, is an objection against Rashi's
measurements of the thickness of gold and silver laayers, for the aron
would be too heavy to carry, and neither the four kohanim nor the
baddim would be able to carry such a super heavy ark.

Anyway, by the same token, it is reasonable that the nes of Moshe
erecting the mishkan was a  one week event, while Moshe was erecting
and inaugurating it , erhaps to accentuate that Moshe was considered
as meritorious as the entire nation, and that the mishkan, and thus
the forgiveness of 'het ha'egel was entirely the doing of Moshe
(divrei 'atzmi - you are free to disagree).
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Weird Purim Costumes
* From Skinhead to Orthodox Jew
* Kommender Vortrag am 7. M?rz
* Should Our Ancestors Have Needed a Mishkan?
* How German Built the Hebrew Language
* Is the New Israel Fund Indirectly Responsible for the Goldstone
Blood Libel? (en & de)

R' David I. Cohen asked:

> It is as is there is some kind of biochemical reaction
> effecting a non-corporeal, spiritual entity, the human
> neshama.

Close, but you'll be even closer if you replace "biochemical" with
"metaphysical". The biochemistry of shechted beef and non-shechted beef are
identical; the differences are real, but lie in realms inaccessable to
science.

I do believe (or suspect) that our actions do indeed cause these sort of
effects, and that these causes and effects follow strict rules, not unlike
the laws which our science teachers taught us. Among these rules might be
"mida k'neged mida", which causes the effects to be relative to the causes,
so that a meizid gets worse effects than a shogeg, and a mitzvah with
kavana has better effects than a mitzva without kavana. And there are many
such rules which comes into play. They all work together in concert, each
playing its role.

> The discussion has become bio-mechanistic, e.g.does the
> consumption of x amount cause it, does bitul do away with
> it? etc. Where does the intent of the actor come into play?

Yes, mechanistic is an apt description. If you put this sort of gasoline
into an engine you can expect these results, and if you make that
adjustment to the engine it will work a bit differently, all following
clearly delineated laws of chemistry and physics. But only an expert can
claim to have a good understanding of how they interact.

Even the experts don't always agree on how to understand these things. It
seems to me that in the dispute over whether Chilul Shabos for Sakana is
"hutrah" or "dechuyah", there is comparatively little difference in Halacha
L'Maaseh. The main differences are in these metaphysical areas.

Factors like bitul and intent come into play whenever the halachah
considers them significant. However the halachah deigns to view the case,
that's how the metaphysical ripple effects will play out. "K'shem
shematirin b'veis din shel matah, kach yihyu mutarim b'veis din shel
maalah."

> If someone holds be down and forces me to eat a kazayit
> of treif, does that cause timtum halev, while if I
> voluntarily consume a minuscule amount it doesn't?

Well, given that "chetzi shiur assur min haTorah", voluntarily consuming a
minuscule amount WILL cause timtum to a small degree. Whether it is smaller
than your example of oness, or not quite as small, is far above my pay
scale.

> I would think that maybe the timtum caused by inadvertent
> consumption (or inadvertent failure to perform a particular
> mitzva correctly, such as wearing tefilin you didn't know
> where not kosher) is the fact that the person did not care
> enough to be careful enough, which, therefore causes a
> chisaron in his neshama.

I totally agree that in such a case, the causes and effects are exactly as
you describe. But what would you say about a case where a person *did* care
enough, and *was* very careful, but stumbled nevertheless? Even the very
best of hechsherim is not perfect; if someone totally innocently ate such
food, and it turned out to be treif, would you say that it is not m'tamtem
his lev even a tiny bit? What about someone whose tefillin had been checked
over the years by a dozen expert sofrim, and only decades later was it
discovered that an entire word was missing; Hashem can give him all sorts
of credits for trying, but do you think that he'll really get full credit
as if the word had been there all along?

> In this way, one could at least argue that relying on
> bitul is a permissive but not optimal way to behave, and,
> therefore can still cause a timtum ( or conversely that it
> is perfectly legitimate and causes no harm).

Or even further: Some poskim hold that (at least in some cases) it is
*wrong* to avoid eating the nullified food, because it displays a lack of
faith in the halachic system, and in the One Who gave it to us.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Criminal Lawyer
Criminal Lawyers - Click here.
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R.MB wrote:

<<So I started wondering when the notion of "a mezuzah protects"
became commonplace among my fellow Litvaks (and among Yekkes). I think it
traces back to the LR's Mezuzah Campaign in the weeks before and during the
Six Day War, but I'm not sure. It would seem to be mid- or late-20th cent
CE, either way.>>

 

I have to quibble with your lumping together Litvaks and Yekkes.  Having
observed older members of my wife's Yekke family, especially the female
members, I have noticed that there is a strain of superstition, or interest
in segulos (to be more charitable), which is home-grown.  I think it might
date back to the chasidei Ashkenaz, who were very mystical.  These family
members are very makpid on not eating the end of a loaf, insisting that my
pregnant wife bite of the pitom of my esrog, shaliach mitzva gelt, etc. The
image we have of the hyper-rational Yekke might have been true for educated
men in the cities, but in the towns, and amongst women, I think mysticism
still prevailed from mediaeval times.  They are also very into giving
berachos (leil Shabbos, motzei Shabbos, before going on a journey).  I am
not saying that giving berachos is mystical per se, but the way they do it,
I think it is.

 

I certainly agree with you that Chabad has contributed greatly (in the
Ashkenazi world) to the mystical approach to heftzei/maasei mitzva that you
describe.  Their emphasis on maasei mitzva, especially slapping tefillin on
interested but bemused passersby, over appeal to the intellect (e.g. Ohr
Somayach, or even Aish), is a sympton of their approach.  I think they
approach mitzvos more as the pushing of buttons on the celestial dashboard
(to paraphrase R. Aharon Lichtenstein), rather than transformation of the
soul of the mitzva-doer, which is a more Litvish approach. 

 

Kol tuv

Dov Kaiser
                                          
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For many years I have felt that the yeshivas "spoil" the seder. From 
the gemara it seems to me that younger children are not supposed to 
know very much about what to expect at the Seder. However, today they 
come home "armed" with thick booklets, ready to say the Torah of 
their teachers.  They not only know what will happen, but, if allowed 
to say all that they have in their booklets, there would be no time 
for anything else.  Now this may have been the way to go when many 
parents had very limited Jewish educations, but it does not seem 
appropriate for children who come from homes where the parents are 
well educated Jewishly.

I found support for my position in this week's Hamodia Magazine which 
features a very well written and interesting article about Rav Yaakov 
Kamenetsky, ZT"L. In the article the author writes

Rav Yaakov had a novel, focused
approach to the mitzvah of v'higadeta
l'vincha, recounting the story of the Exodus
from Egypt to one's children on Pesach
night. We are all familiar with the bulging
notebooks and binders that children bring
to the Pesach table, hours' worth of divrei
Torah all seemingly set to music with
refrains. Rav Yaakov was against this
practice. He held that boys should not be
prepared in advance in any significant way
for the Seder.

"There are two mitzvos aseh, affirmative
commandments, on Pesach. One is to eat
matzah, and the other is v'higadeta l'vincha.
If the child takes over the table, the father
loses the mitzvah of sippur Yetzias
Mitzrayim!"

Dare one suggest that it is time for the yeshivas to stop preparing 
their talmidim for the seder and follow Reb Yaakov's approach?

Yitzchok Levine 
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Arie Folger wrote:
> R'n TK wrote:
>> 1.  How did they fill the Mizbeach , aka the Mizbeach Adamah,  with
>> dirt? This mizbeach was hollow and was filled with dirt AIUI  only
>> when they camped, presumably to make it more solid and stable.
>> But  how did they fill it? Picture a cardboard box, turned upside
>> down, with  its open side lying face down on the ground.
> 
> Who says there was a top to the box? I always understood (ok,
> me'ommedi 'al da'ati) that it only had four sides. However, there is a
> Rashi that implied it had at least a partial top, as Rashi talks about
> how the eternal fire was transported on the covered altar (it was
> covered with a kind of wire mesh to keep the flamable cover away from
> the heat).

I began to write the same answer this morning, until I came across
that Rashi at the end of Bamidbar.  


 
> But I do have another question, which is surely dealt with in the
> gemara, but unfortunately, I must admit my ignorance: taking apart and
> rebuilding the misshkan must have taken a serious amount of time.
> Ditto for filling the mizbeach, especially accoridn  to the views that
> it stood 10 amot tall. While they would arrive at destination, after a
> desert sojourn, how would they bring the required sacrifices when the
> mizbeach wasn't up and running yet?

There were 22K Leviyim.



-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

R'nTK wrote:
1.  How did they fill the Mizbeach , aka the Mizbeach Adamah,  with dirt?  

CM responds:

I have no makor, but I always simply assumed they built the four vertical
sides (without top or bottom), then filled it with earth, and finally
applied the top surface once filled. I did wonder whether there are any
issues requiring full contact of the Adamah and the top (and sides) over
the entire surface which might be difficult to achieve throughout.


Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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There was a time when one could buy frozen challah dough, let it 
defrost,  and then bake it.  (I have a feeling this product is still 
around. So here you have frozen challah that is just as good, if not 
better than fresh challah, because if one bakes it close to Shabbos 
or on Yom Tov, it is really very tasty. >:-}

YL

scenario was simple--israeli made  havdala after 7 days of  pesach, then 
leaves the airspace of the only part of the globe that has chol on the 
subsequent  day....


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On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 8:02 AM, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:

>
> scenario was simple--israeli made  havdala after 7 days of  pesach, then
> leaves the airspace of the only part of the globe that has chol on the
> subsequent  day....
>
>
I don't get it. Your original question was about hiyyuv karet, no?

FWIW El Al serves KLP on its flights on the 8th day
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Reb Zalman Alpert sent me the following:

I heard from Rabbi Avrohom Hoffman of Cong Shaare Hatikvah in 
Washington Heights that his rebbe,  the late Rabbi Simon Schwab, 
ZT"L,  was upset one year when a group of guests at his seder table 
were learning rather than paying attention to the proceedings. Rav 
Schwab nicely urged them to go to the living room to continue 
learning,  "Here we are having a seder and telling of the story of 
Yetzias Mitzraim. This is not the time for learning. It is the time 
for listening and retelling the story."

This too is a very important lesson to keep in mind today with the 
proliferation of lomdishe haggados etc.

Yitzchok Levine 
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>
> *
>
> *Dare one suggest that it is time for the yeshivas to stop preparing their
> talmidim for the seder and follow Reb Yaakov's approach?
>

I would be happy to say that I agree with you.  I have a big concern though.
 There are students in the schools that don't have parents that know enough
to be able to teach their children.  Either the parents never got to go to
yeshiva for one reason or another, or there was a divorce in the family etc.
 If the kids don't know some of the story from school, when will they learn
it to teach to their children.

Yosef Skolnick
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Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
> 
> scenario was simple--israeli made  havdala after 7 days of  pesach, then 
> leaves the airspace of the only part of the globe that has chol on the 
> subsequent  day....

But why would there be an issur karet?  Even according to the Chacham
Tzvi and SA Harav, the issur would only be d'rabbannan.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

I emailed Rabbi Moshe Schwab, Rav Shimon Schwab's oldest son, the 
story below that I sent out earlier today about his father that I 
received from Reb Zalman Alpert. Rabbi M. Schwab replied, "I never 
heard this story, and I doubt that it is true."

I then sent this message to Reb Zalman Alpert, and he wrote to me:

I respect Rabbi Moshe Schwab, and if he says its not true that 
certainly deserves serious consideration.  Perhaps you ought to 
relate that fact as well or delete  my message. Although I do not 
think so,  perhaps my memory is faulty, and it was Rabbi Breuer or 
another of the WH German rabbis.

Zalman Alpert

>>Reb Zalman Alpert sent me the following:
>>
>>I heard from Rabbi Avrohom Hoffman of Cong Shaare Hatikvah in 
>>Washington Heights that his rebbe,  the late Rabbi Simon Schwab, 
>>ZT"L,  was upset one year when a group of guests at his seder table 
>>were learning rather than paying attention to the proceedings. Rav 
>>Schwab nicely urged them to go to the living room to continue 
>>learning,  "Here we are having a seder and telling of the story of 
>>Yetzias Mitzraim. This is not the time for learning. It is the time 
>>for listening and retelling the story."
>>
>>This too is a very important lesson to keep in mind today with the 
>>proliferation of lomdishe haggados etc.
>>
>>Yitzchok Levine
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