Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 57

Thu, 25 Feb 2010

• 1. Re: any makor (Saul Guberman)
• 2. Re: Right foot forward (Joshua Meisner)
• 3. Re: Chief Rabbis Favor Fur Ban (Gershon Seif)
• 4. Re: kol hamoseif gorea (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: any makor (Liron Kopinsky)
• 6. Re: kol hamoseif gorea (hankman)
• 7. Re: kol hamoseif gorea (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 8. Re: any makor (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Yehoshua and Yehonasan (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: any makor (Saul Guberman)
• 11. Re: any makor (T6...@aol.com)
• 12. maaariv-havdala before Purim (Eli Turkel)
• 13. kreplach on Purim (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Re: kreplach on Purim (Micha Berger)
• 15. : any makor (SBA)

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:44, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:

>
> have  seen in MO  synagogues , usually by mincha of  shabbos  zachor  ,  a
>  second 'layning'  of  zachor  for those  who missed.  is  one yotze with
> this---with no bracha before  and after?
>
>
Your assumption is that this needs a bracha to begin with.
I am posting the last 2 paragraphs of RSM's thoughts on Zachor. See here for
the entire post http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n153.shtml#17

If you still want to go against all the rishonim and say that this
g'moro is indeed lahalokho, I encourage you to get a minyan together
every shabbos to lein zakhor es yom hashabbos, and maybe on Miryam's
yohrtzeit to lein about her zakhor, and also for mon,

And, to end with the plaintive wail of a CQ: even according to this
modern idea that parshas Zakhor is d'orayso because purported you are
m'qayyem some mitzva of z'khiras 'Amoleq, why, oh why, should that
require you to take any more care in leining it than any other part of
the Torah? Adrabbo, for sure mitzvas z'khiras 'Amoleq does not require
you to recite the posuq word for word in Hebrew.

Curmudgeonly yours,
Seth Mandel
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On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>wrote:

> When we were about to walk our son to the chupa, the caterer asked us to
> stop, and start out "the last mile" on the right foot.  Is there any Jewish
> reason/source for this?
>

Shulchan HaEzer (published by R' Yitzchak Tzvi Leibowitz of Tchop in the
1930s) mentions the minhag in
7:4:2<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8556&;st=&pgnum=66>,
and notes that Sefer
Mat'amim<http://www.he
brewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22486&;st=&pgnum=41>(publishe
d
by R' Yitzchak Lepietz of Shedlitz in the late 19th century) also
mentions it.

Joshua Meisner
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<<Why would you think CRs Yonah Metzger and Shelomo Amar are speaking
about shtreimelach? There is no mention of them in the A-7 story, nor
would too many of the people who follow their pesaqim wear shtremelach.>>

True. I suppose was thinking about things from the frum consumer's perspective and assumed it would directed at the shteimel manufactureres in Israel.

<<The only difference I can see from the NbY's case is the quality of
vinyl streimelach. But I agree in a failure to follow how this is really
a halachic tzaar baalei chaim (TBC) issue.>>

I just read that most of the fur comes from asia where conditions are said
to be very cruel to animals. That would explain things and also change this
to an issue of halacha and not just lifnim m'shuras hadin.

Micha 
> Now apply what you're saying to teeth number, or 8th month babies. 
> Because I need an example to understand how your comment answers the 
> question.?

Hazal dealt in WHAT'S. How this might be true is beyond my ken
This has nothing to do with my point about Hazal's knoweldge of advanced
technology

I think this is confusion due to thread drift. I'm not addressing the
original premise anymore. See below about grievous mis-understandings! ;-)

> Also, are you including RCKaniefsky among those who misunderstand
> Chazal?

I dunno. It would be simpler to accuse our esteemed group of
misunderstanig R Kanivesky! Why?

Since my own posts get severely misconstrued quite often -- it is easy
for me to make that Kal vachomer! :-)

Freilichen Purim 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

According to Rabbi Muskin in LA quoting RMF, it is done at Mincha and *not*
just stam anytime in the afternoon b/c it would be otherwise assur to take
the sefer Torah out. Once it's already out for mincha, however, to add a
little extra reading to be motzi those who missed it is allowed.

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Saul Guberman <saulguber...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:44, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> have  seen in MO  synagogues , usually by mincha of  shabbos  zachor  ,  a
>>  second 'layning'  of  zachor  for those  who missed.  is  one yotze with
>> this---with no bracha before  and after?
>>
>
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RRW wrote:

And StarTrek has taught me about space warp and travel faster than the
speed of light. Since Zefram Cochrane hasn't yet been born, we don't
know the HOW yet. [Google Cochrane and space warp for more information]

CM responds:

I too enjoyed science fiction. I hope that we are not wondering into and creating Torah fiction.

RRW wrote:

My 7th grade rebbe -- a Morocccan -- told us that the Zohar talked about
radios and space travel. Well Jules Verne also had a man in the moon in
the 19th century -- fired out of a cannon IIRC.

CM responds:

Can you cite the actual Zohar? I find that when such nebulous and
unsupported claims are made they are often baseless and sometimes based on
a fanciful interpretation of the source if one exists at all, eg., a kol
nishma misof ha'olam ad sof ha'olam and voila you have radio or if someone
could see misof ha'olam ad sof ha'olam and shazam you have the Hubble
Telescope etc.

RRW wrote:

Da Vinci foresaw helicopters 

CM responds:

Because he had a very rudimentary (by our standards) understanding of the HOW, not because he guessed the WHAT (and irrelevant to our discussion).

RRW wrote:

Point? Even if Hazal knew of every WHAT re: future advanced medicine
does not mean they knew any of the HOW'S.

So could Hazal say -- one day man will land on Moon? Yes!

CM responds:

In terms of clear Torah sources, there are NONE that I am aware of that
speak of WHAT, only those that speak of the HOW. The medroshim about
"Histakel be'Oraisa ubara alma" and "behiborom" - "behaiborom" clearly
discuss the blueprints of the universe, the natural laws that govern our
universe and how it operates, this is the HOW. We have no sources for
radio, telephone, airplanes, nuclear plants etc., etc., and no reason to
assume Chazal could find these directly through intensive limud haTorah.
This is not true of the HOW which does purport to be embedded in the sodos
of Torah as per the medroshim above. Could they then perhaps have applied
the HOW they could derive from the sodos haTorah and applied them in an
engineering sense to a WHAT - who knows - maybe.

This then brings me back to the questions of my earlier posts.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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R' Micha Berger wrote:
> But RET is talking about the claim that they knew all of
> science, not that they got glimpses of future devices. 
> IOW, the claim under the discussion is bedavka about
> knowing the "how". 

R' Rich Wolpoe responded:
> And I'm saying those who stake that claim labor under a
> mis-understanding. They take the knowledge of the WHAT to
> mean the HOW also. It's a classic hiluq
> ...
> Hazal knew OF advanced medicine and so they consulted the
> hands-on experts. Their knowledge was simple -- they knew
> the potentials. The actual engineering details often belonged
> to secular sources.

RRW's understanding of Chazal is very similar to mine. But it is NOT the same as the position quoted by RET.

Let's be very clear: RRW is *not* offering an explanation which serves to
make the two camps compatible. Rather, in his view, there most definitely
were limits to how much scientific knowledge Chazal had, in contrast to the
other view, which claims they lacked nothing.

Akiva Miller

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saulguber...@gmail.com 
> If you still want to go against all the rishonim and say that this g'moro
> is indeed lahalokho,...
 
WADR isn't this the premise of EG the m'chabeir and the Mishna B'rurah --
viz. that laining Parshas Zachor is a d'oraisso?
 
Or am I missing something? 
 
Freilichen Purim 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

The niqud we see in siddurim for the sheim Havayah is that of sheim
Adnus, with the minor alteration of putting a sheva under the yud
instead of a chataf patach. (Not sure if that's because the printer
thought that a chataf patach under a yud looks weird, or because it
would widen the word -- a sheva fits under the yud better.) This is
standard practice for q'ri ukesiv, to place the niqud for the q'ri.

BUT, if the vowels of the first two letters weren't sheva and cholam,
why would Yehoshua and Yehonasan as they are?

That's assuming, of course, that the suffix version is more likely
to be modified: Yoshiyahu, Eliyahu....

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 22:09, <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> saulguber...@gmail.com
> > If you still want to go against all the rishonim and say that this g'moro
> > is indeed lahalokho,...
>
> WADR isn't this the premise of EG the m'chabeir and the Mishna B'rurah --
> viz. that laining Parshas Zachor is a d'oraisso?
>
> Or am I missing something?
>
> Freilichen Purim
> RRW


You have to read the entire post
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n153.shtml#17
Freilach Purim,

Saul
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From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org

have  seen in MO   synagogues , usually by mincha of  shabbos  zachor  ,  a 
 
second 'layning'  of  zachor  for those  who  missed.  is  one yotze with 
this---with no bracha before  and  after?

 
>>>>
Not only MO shuls. 
 
Not necessarily at mincha.  More commonly at the end of Musaf, for the  
ladies who come at the end of davening just for this purpose.
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------
 


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In many communities people leave a distance from the shul and so
megilla is some half to hour after shabbat and people drive to Megilla.
There seem to be several options not all discussed by poskim.
Any ideas?

1. Daven Maariv at end of Shabbat (Geonim time). There is a question
about making  havdala before or after the megilla. Since people will be
driving hoe and back it seems to me to make more sense to hear
havadala over the cup in shul or perhaps make havdala at home for the
family.
then drive to shul for megilla (again perhaps havadala after megilla)

2. Just make a lehavdil ben kodesh le-chol
drive home
make havdala at home for family
drive back to shul - daven maaariv (after havdala?) and the megilla

-- 
Eli Turkel

1278. "The mitzvah of drinking more wine than usual on Purim is one of
the specific mitzvos of Purim day in accordance
 with the Rimazim and Sodos (secrets) included in the mitzvah; and one
who withholds from fulfilling the mitzvah because
 he doesn't understand the mitzvah has no part in [Klal] Yisroel, and
in the acceptance of the yoke of the words of our holy Rabbis".

Bina L'ittim Drush 21, Nitay Gavriel 73:1 fn1



1279. There are three days during the year when we have a minhag to
eat "Kreplach", a triangle shaped dough with
meat inside. These days are Purim, Ho'shana Rabbah, and Erev Yom
Kippur. The significance of these three days is
that they are all Yomim Tovim on which, although it is a mitzvah to
have a Seudah as on a Yom Tov, it is nevertheless
 permitted to work and conduct business, thereby making the Yom Tov
hidden. Therefore the simcha of eating on Yom Tov
which is fulfilled by eating meat, is done by eating a hidden meat.
Geulas Yisroel cited by Ta'amai Haminhagim


1. Never had kreplach on Purim or Erev Yom Kippur or Hoshana Raba.
Haven't even seen them being
advertised by the stores here. How common is this minhag?

2. Not drinking more than usual  means he has no part on Klal Yisroel
seems quite harsh to me.
In general I have a problem with these halachot that many relatively
minor halachot are claimed to have
major punishments eg not doing someone right in tefilla has terrible
consequences  including galut

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:58:00AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: 1278. "The mitzvah of drinking more wine than usual on Purim is one of
: the specific mitzvos of Purim day in accordance
:  with the Rimazim and Sodos (secrets) included in the mitzvah; and one
: who withholds from fulfilling the mitzvah because
:  he doesn't understand the mitzvah has no part in [Klal] Yisroel, and
: in the acceptance of the yoke of the words of our holy Rabbis".
: Bina L'ittim Drush 21, Nitay Gavriel 73:1 fn1
...
: 2. Not drinking more than usual  means he has no part on Klal Yisroel
: seems quite harsh to me.

This is a basic statement about minhag and poreish min hatzibur, not
wine on Purim qua wine on Purim.

What I want top know is if RMF would say that all those remazim and
sodos are fulfilled if I drank low alcohol wine or grape juice. Notice
he defines the din as drinking wine, not drinking alcoholic beverages.

And while it's clearly an attempt to uproot minhag Yisrael to say the
din isn't about getting drunk, it would be an attempt to uproot minhag
Litta to stop trying! Eg
- "Ad delo yada" means getting sleepy,
- "Arur Haman" vs "barukh Mordekhai" is actually subtle. Knowing the
  difference between blessing the light and cursing darkness is much
  harder than knowing what's wrong with someone who curses the light.
- The gemara doesn't end with "chayav adam livsumei", it ends with
  "Rabba shachat lei leR' Zeira" -- a warning against too much
  drinking.
Etc...

But here there is no explict mention of drunkenness, which is easier
using whisky or vodka. He says "yayin" and speaks of sodos -- which
inherently are secretive.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org

 

have  seen in MO  synagogues , usually by mincha of  shabbos  zachor  ,  a 

 second 'layning'  of  zachor  for those  who missed.  is  one yotze with 

this---with no bracha before  and after?

>> 

 

Our shul (not MO) does a few sessions of post-davening Parshas Zochor
leining - mainly for women

 

But not a Mincha

 

SBA

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