Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 38

Fri, 05 Feb 2010

• 1. Re: Hilchta Lmishicha (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 2. Re: Counting a Wife Beater Toward a Minyan (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 3. Servants of Hashem (Yitzchok Levine)
• 4. Re: Mincha and Z'rizin Makdimin (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Mincha and Z'rizin Makdimin (David Riceman)
• 6. Re: Ein Mevatlin issur lechatchilah (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 7. Re: tehilas Hashem in shir hamaalos (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 8. Habituation (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. Re: Polemics and the Orthodox Prohibition Against Microphones on Shabbat (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: Mincha and Z'rizin Makdimin (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: tehilas Hashem in shir hamaalos (Allan Engel)
• 12. Re: Habituation (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Habituation (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. Re: Interesting discussion about the history of curly Peyos (T613K@aol.com)
• 15. Re: Habituation (David Riceman)
• 16. davening in public (Eli Turkel)

See Encyclopedia Taalmudis Erech "Hilchasa Lmshicha".

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Rich, Joel <JR...@sibson.com> wrote:

>  The Tamud in two places (Sanhedrin 51a and Zvachim 45a) asks hilchata
> lmashicha which pretty much means why come to a halachic conclusion if there
> is no immediate application.  I?m looking for possible theories as to why
> coming to a halachic conclusion on such issues might trouble the Talmud (I
> have a few but don?t want to prejudice anyone).
>

-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100204/f92d614b/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:22 PM, Chanoch (Ken) Bloom <kbl...@gmail.com>wrote:
>  On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 10:40 -0500, Micha Berger wrote:
>> In my series of QSA on CM, I got to 184:1....
>> Here is my translation:
...
>>     Whomever hits his friend, he is excommunicated with an excommunication
>>     of the ancients. One does not include him to a minyan of ten for
>>     any declaration of sanctity until a beis din releases him from the
>>     excommunication, when he accepts upon himself to listen to their
>>     ruling.
...

> Isn't placing someone in cherem an action the beit din takes. Which is
> to say that he isn't in cherem until the beit din declares him to be in
> cherem. Or do I have this wrong?

> If I have that point right, then this isn't an issue of having 9 people
> who are unsuspectingly davening with someone who's in cherem because he
> beats his wife in the privacy of his own home and nobody knows that he's
> sinning this way.

See O"C 55:11-12, S"A HaRav 55:14, (the loshon in C"M (brought also in
S"H HaRav Hilchos Nizkei Guf v'Nefesh Si'if 1) would implicate that the
Kadmonim acted and B"D needs to undo). But see also the Pischei Tshuvah
C"M 420 # 1.

-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

RSRH's commentary on Parsha Yisro is literally 
filled with deep insights into Yahadus.  I cannot 
recommend strongly enough that people read 
through at least some of his commentary.  YL

On Shemos 20

2 I, Hashem, shall be your God, I, Who brought 
you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves.

Rav Hirsch writes in part:

What the philosophers, ancient and modern, call ?the belief in the
existence of God? is as remote as can be from the meaning of this verse
regarding the foundations of Jewish thought and Jewish life. The fundamental
truth of Jewish life is not belief in God?s existence, nor that
God is one and only one. It is, rather, that the one and only God, the
God of truth, is my God: He created and formed me, gave me my
standing, informed me of my duty, and He continues to create me and
to form me, to keep me, to guide me and to lead me. My belief is not
that my connection to Him is through an endless chain of events as a
chance product of a universe of which He was the first cause aeons ago.
Rather, my belief is that every breath that I take and every moment of
my existence is a direct gift of His power and love, and that my duty
is to devote every moment of my life to His service alone.

In other words, the essential thing is not the knowledge of God?s
existence, but the awareness and the acknowledgment that He is my God,
that my fate is in His hands alone, and that He alone establishes the
work of my hands. Corresponding to the command Anochi Hashem Elokecha there
is but one response: Ata Elokei.

Hence, more than any other nation, we owe to God whatever we possess
? head, heart and hand. All that the Egyptians had denied us was
restored to us by God Himself: our personal individuality, the right to
acquire possessions, and the possessions themselves. Consequently, He
alone has dominion over our lives and our property, and we belong exclusively
to Him. To His service we dedicate our lives, capabilities and possessions,
and we acknowledge Him alone as the Guide of all our actions.

Only our total subservience to God freed us from servitude to man.
Only on this condition were we liberated and granted our independence.
Whereas all people of all other nations are indebted to God for their
creation and existence, we are indebted to Him for our historical and
social existence also. We went forth from Avdus Paro and entered Avdus
Hashem. In the national anthem of the Hallel we sing: Ani Avdecha ben Amasecha
Petachta l'mosaroi (Tehillim 116:16), which 
means: I am Your servant from birth,
for You loosened the bonds of my servitude. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100204/a50acaf9/attachment-0001.htm>

And, by the way, can anyone think of other examples where we seem to abandon z'rizin makdimin, and prefer delaying the mitzvah?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________

Brit Milah
Listen hear from audioroundup 72

http://download.yutorah.org/2009/1053/739506/Zerizin%20Makdimin
%20L'Mitzvot.MP3
Rabbi Moshe Taragin -Zerizin Makdimin L'Mitzvot
Avot were always getting up early!  [Yeah for early risers!]
R'Taragin identifies several related (but separate) concepts including:  1)
zrizin makdimim - do mitzvot ASAP; 2) mitzvah haba l'yadcha - once started,
it's there, do it; 3) Ein Maavirin (don't pass over one mitzvah for
another); 4) L'olam Yakdim (chap a mitzvah before someone else - R'MT - it
also bothers me and lmaaseh I don't do it)
Is zrizin an intrinsic (makes it a "better" mitzvah) or extrinsic factor. 
R'MT gives several ex's   where it may make a difference (questions I've
often pondered and always got an "it depends") - Mincha ktana vs. gedola,
brit early in AM or when people can get there, Kiddush Levana when?
[insights welcome!]

KT
Joel Rich

As of February 22, our New York Office will be located at:
333 West 34th St.
New York, NY 10001-2402
All telephone and fax numbers (and e-mail addresses) will remain the same.
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> It is clear to me from many places, that in general, a delayed Mincha is preferable to an early Mincha.
Brachos 29b "mitzva l'hispalel im dimdumei hama", cited in Hagahos 
Mayymonis H. Tefillah 3:4 SK 3 citing R. Hananel (take a good look; it 
answers most of your questions).

David Riceman

Given
    Ein Mevatlin issur lechatchilah
As an agreed upon axiom [if you dissent then treat it so arguendo only]

Are there any sources pro and con on this related topic namely:
    Pog'mim issur lechatchilah

IOW That we may or must not denature issur for subsequent use.

For ME, the earlier the sources, the better, IOW Rishonim and classic
nos'ei keilim on YD are preferable.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 7:59 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com <
kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:

> R' Daniel Bukingolts asked:
> > Does anybody know the source for the "tehilas Hashem..."
> > addition to shir hamaalos in bentching
>

The Pri Etz Chayim (Arizal)


> Kol Tuv,
> Yitzchok Zirkind
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100204/b0da30e0/attachment-0001.htm>

It is my understanding that the great majority of authorities (perhaps all
of them) place very few (perhaps zero) restrictions on how a male doctor
examines a female patient, even for routine checkups (and kal vachomer for
a cholanis, and even more so for a cholanis sheyesh bah sakanah).

Am I correct in the above?

And if I am correct in the above, am I correct that the reason for such
leniency is a presumption that the probability of the doctor getting
significant (or any) hirhur or hanaah is negligible (or zero)?

If I am correct in all the above, then it seems that, despite protests to
the contrary, habituation *IS* a widely (or universally) accepted heter for
these halachos. And if so, then when someone says that he rejects the idea
of leniencies based on habituation, what he really means is that for public
policy reasons (RRW would probably call it a gezera), the leniencies of
habituation must be restricted solely to doctors, and must not be extended
to others.

Comments?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Banking
Click here to find the perfect banking opportunity!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/c?cp=bw_s-guc2nZmcXflMbcftgAAJ
z3zeK-F0bLcqGb51B0rOTOKAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAXeAAAAAA=

FWIW 1
In the 1960's, a Rav in Hartford said that microphones were now "solid
state" and therefore muttar on shabbos. IOW whatever statements
prohibitting them in the 1950's were no longer an issue.

FWIW 2
Circa 1970, I asked my Rebbe - R SY Weinberg A"H in Ner Israel in Toronto
"What is the prohibittion against using microphones on Shabbos?"

He replied "hashmo'as qol"

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Thu, Feb 04, 2010 at 12:54:00PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: The simple answer is that our Tefilas Mincha is modeled after the
: Tamid Shel Bayn Ha'arbayim, and that Korban Tamid was delayed until very
: late in the day...

Another reason:
The tamid and davening should be "yiyra'ukha lifnei hashemesh" (Tehillim
72:5). This is the reason for kevasiqin in the morning (Berakhos 9b).
"Mitzvah lehispallel im didumei chamah". Rashi associates minhchah with
the gemara's quote of the second half of the pasuq, d"h "velifnei
yareich" -- "af tefilas haminchah mitzvasah im dimdumei chamah".

The Ramban (p' Bo) says the very name name of the afternoon qorban and
tefilah is about menuchas hashemesh.

I was wondering if those of us who live urban lives, and therefore live
by the time on our watches rather than relating the cycles of our days
to sunrise and sunset, really should delay minchah. It wouldn't provide
the same aid to kavanah, and therefore perhaps for us "zerizim maqdimin"
outweighs.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

In a recorded shiur given by Rabbi Hamburger of Machon Ashkenaz, posted
recently by R' Y Levine, he discusses this very issue, starting at approx 48
minutes

http://www.yiwb.org/Rabbi%20Hamburger.mp3



On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Yitzchok Zirkind <y...@aol.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 7:59 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com <
> kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>> R' Daniel Bukingolts asked:
>> > Does anybody know the source for the "tehilas Hashem..."
>> > addition to shir hamaalos in bentching
>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100204/01d3a9a7/attachment-0001.htm>

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> It is my understanding that the great majority of authorities (perhaps
> all of them) place very few (perhaps zero) restrictions on how a male
> doctor examines a female patient, even for routine checkups (and kal
> vachomer for a cholanis, and even more so for a cholanis sheyesh bah
> sakanah).

Correct.

> And if I am correct in the above, am I correct that the reason for
> such leniency is a presumption that the probability of the doctor
> getting significant (or any) hirhur or hanaah is negligible (or zero)?

Correct.

> If I am correct in all the above, then it seems that, despite protests
> to the contrary, habituation *IS* a widely (or universally) accepted
> heter for these halachos.

And here's where, AIUI, you go wrong: the heter is not habituation but
distraction.  He is busy with his work, and the context makes him see
the person before him not as a woman but as an anatomical construction
that is either functioning or not.  Similarly, a photographer sees a
female subject not as a woman but as an object to be manipulated so as
to properly integrate into the composition.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

RZS:
> And here's where, AIUI, you go wrong: the heter is not habituation but
> distraction.  He is busy with his work, and the context makes him see
> the person before him not as a woman but as an anatomical construction
> that is either functioning or not.  Similarly, a photographer sees a
> female subject not as a woman but as an object to be manipulated so as
> to properly integrate into the composition.

There is actually a Gmara almost exactly  on topic - supporting Zev.

IIRC
Watching animals mate is assur because it provokes hirhur

However, a farmer is allowed to physically mate two animals mamash with
his hands - because due to the work/tirda he is somply too occupied to
have hirhurim. [Or his hirhurim are about money!]

I don't recall the specific daf - but I do recall giving it a few months
ago on a Shabbos. And so it's either end of bava m'tziah or beginning
of bava basra

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
In Avodah Digest, Vol 27,  Issue 37
 


On Fri, Feb 05, 2010, RSBA wrote to Areivim:
:  http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2010/02/yekke-with-curly-peyos.html

For  those who don't use other parts of the internet... It's a picture of
R' Aron  Wolfssohn Halle (R' Aharon ben Wolf, from Halle), who lived
1756-1832, was  the rav of Hildesheim, thus the "Yekke with Curly Peyos"
in the URL RSBA  shared.


....I think there is some SERIOUS antiquity to the notion.  It's either 
that,
or I would have to accept parallel evolution of banana-curl  peiyos in
both the Hungary-Galicia area and Teiman. 

....We see from this gemera that curly peyos was considered part of a  young
Jewish boy's beauty as far back as the days of the tannaim.  ...



-- 
Micha  Berger              





 
>>>>>
 
 
Stranger than the curly payos is the fact that he seems to  have  shaved 
part of his beard -- his cheeks are clean-shaven and he only has hair  on  his 
chin and under his jaw.  The juxtaposition of the curly payos  and sylized 
beard is very strange-looking.  (Unless -- is it  possible?  -- that's just 
how his beard happened to grow?  It really  looks shaved, not the bits of 
fluff and fuzz some men have who can't grow a full  beard.)
 

--Toby Katz
==========




--------------------  




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100204/7b62e2aa/attachment-0001.htm>

rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> I don't recall the specific daf 

BM 91a, EH 23:3.

David Riceman

"B'Mechitzas Rabbeinu" -Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetzky's hanhagos. See pages 58-59

Here's a loose translation by a friend:

"One student - whose livelihood required him to always be on the road
- asked R' Yaakov what to do about davening Mincha when he was out on
the road. R' Yaakov advised him to pull into a highway rest stop or
parking lot, park his car, and daven the entire mincha while sitting
inside his car. R' Yaakov emphasized that there was absolutely no
reason in such a case to stand up and daven in public - or to do
anything else that would arouse anyone's curiosity. After all, being
the subject of everyone else's curious looks would surely detract from
him ability to concentrate on his prayers.

He also emphasized that it was against halacha to stand outside and
daven out in the open under the 'Kippas HaShamayim'. Lastly, he told
him that although many try and solve this problem by going into an
empty telephone booth to daven, this is pure gezeilah from the phone
companies. After all, while one is in there davening mincha, he's
preventing others from entering and paying to make their phone calls."
>>

I am not sure about davening in the open under the heavens.
Of course at the Kotel it is usually done (except for those inside the tunnels)
Also in EY it is common to see cars pulled over late in the day and
people davening mincha
outside their cars where such activities are not unusual

Furthermore during the summer I frequently see groups on a tiyul (both
RZ and charedi)
davening mincha outside

shabbat shaom




-- 
Eli Turkel


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 38
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."