Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 27

Mon, 25 Jan 2010

• 1. Re: Two kinds of humros (David Riceman)
• 2. Re: Two kinds of humros (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 3. Re: Coat Room Mix-up (Aryeh Herzig)
• 4. re Coca cola ingredients (martin brody)
• 5. Re: bal tashchis (T6...@aol.com)
• 6. Re: Two kinds of humros (T6...@aol.com)
• 7. Re: Two kinds of humros (T6...@aol.com)
• 8. Re: Coat Room Mix-up (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Psak about Muscovy Duck from the Rabbinical Institute for Kosher Supervision and Research (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Psak about Muscovy Duck from the Rabbinical Institute for Kosher Supervision (T613K@aol.com)
• 11. Re: Psak about Muscovy Duck from the Rabbinical Institute for Kosher Supervision and Research (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Re: bal tashchis (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: bal tashchis (Simon Montagu)
• 14. Re: re Coca cola ingredients (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Two kinds of humros (David Riceman)
• 16. Re: Psak about Muscovy Duck from the Rabbinical Institute for Kosher Supervision and Research (Zev Sero)

Micha Berger wrote:
> We were once called Perushim because of how Chazal kept us separated
> from issurim. So perhaps the way to understand dinim derabbanan is to
> look at perishus.
>   
This doesn't help with respect to shniyos ba'arayos.  They don't 
restrict marriage in any way; they restrict only the choice of whom to 
marry.

David Riceman

Micha: 
> We were once called Perushim because of how Chazal kept us separated 
> from issurim. 
 
Some rayos 
"Qdsoshim tihyu" 
Sifra: 
P'rushim Tihyu 
 
Avos 1:1 "asu s'yag latorah" 
 
Avos 1:16 v'histaleiq min hasafeiq 
 
Rava in y'vamos 
"Qadesih atzm'cha b'muttar lach" [d'lo k'abbaye sham]. IIRC Ramban ties
this to Q'doshim tihyu.
 
Of course "humra-ization" can itself be a problem of sorts yet in certain
areas, it is more commom [especially re: bassar bechalav and hametz on
Passover -- as per AhS and the over-whelming body of p'saq]
 
KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On this topic, a personal anecdote.
Forty years ago on a cold, wintery Shabbos, someone took my coat (with my
name marked inside) at the Agudah on 14th Ave. in Boro Park.  I had no
choice but to take the last coat left on the rack which was identical in
every way to mine.
After I got home I remembered that my original coat was found to have
Shatnez and it was removed.
The coat I took home did not have a shatnez label.
I brought it in on Monday to the lab and, sure enough, it had shatnez.  I
paid and had it removed.
I continued wearing this coat for many years always checking the coat rack
in the Agudah.
The mysterious owner never showed up again.

Did I do the right thing taking the coat in the first place?
What Mitzva did he do to be saved from Shatnez?
What Aveira did I do to to be Nichshal in Shatnez?

Aryeh
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."As one Senior Kashrus Adminsitrator explained to me, any ingredient
-consciously placed there for its taste -can never be bateil.
RRW"

 That would only be true if the offending "treif" ingredient can be
identified. If it was mixed in with other "tastes" that were kosher and it
is less than 1/60th it would be batel. Hence natural flavours, w/o one
significant flavour, is not a problem.


Martin Brody
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off-list  exchange: 

>>This is a common minhag --  to always leave a little something on the 
plate,  
>> never eat the last  crumb.  Is it a chassidishe minhag?  I don't  know.  
  I  
>>grew up with  it.   It's based on a pasuk somewhere  that I can't quite   
>>retrieve from my memory  box -- something about thanking  Hashem because 
you have   
>> enough food to be  satisfied and even have food left  over.  [--TK] 
>>  Might that be ve?achalta, vesavata you are thinking  of? 
Or  maybe ?savanu vehosarnu kidvar Hashem??  << 

>>>>>
I don't think either of those two is quite what I was  trying to remember 
but there's a clue in that zemer, ?savanu vehosarnu kidvar  Hashem.?    
 
"Kidvar Hashem."  What dvar Hashem is the song  alluding to?
 
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

-------------------- 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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In a message dated 1/24/2010, drice...@att.net writes:

the  people you run into all the time and  
> have a degree of emotional  connection with -- aunts and uncles, 
> in-laws, whatnot. [--TK]
But  you can marry your uncle even though you can't marry your aunt  [--RDR]
 
>>>>>
 
You're right, I shouldn't have said "uncles"
 
You are also right that some of the marriages that /are/ permitted might  
seem strange or even immoral to others.  An example is marrying a first  
cousin, taboo in some societies.
 

--Toby Katz
==========



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From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com

>> AIUI this is also the  rationale for issur MZ 

It ALL ties in to a feeling of safety from  "sexual predatory behavior". 

IOW the Torah is concerned that family  members should not feel
threatened, nor the males going to a mikvah or public  bath.

To me that is the common denominator underlying  
social-spirtual-psychological 
Hashqafah of much of these "taboos".  <<





>>>>>
 
The question was about chumros or derabbanan's  and how they act as a  
fence to safeguard de'oraisahs. The particular question to which I  responded 
was about shniyos and how they safeguard de'oraisa arayos  prohibitions.
 
Citing a DE'ORAISAH as being a fence doesn't make sense.  The  de'oraisa is 
the thing we want to safeguard, it is not a safeguard to protect or  
prevent something else.  Also, the Torah does not give a reason for  forbidding MZ 
-- although it does call it a to'eivah.  Thus, it is  quite a stretch to 
posit that maybe the Torah forbids MZ in order to ensure the  safety of young 
males when they go to the mikva.
 

--Toby Katz
==========



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Aryeh:
> Did I do the right thing taking the coat in the first place? What Mitzva
> did he do to be saved from Shatnez?
> What Aveira did I do to to be Nichshal in Shatnez?

I don't see it that way

Rather I see it as all positive - that HKBH engineered it so that BOTH
coats would be shatnez free by putting each one in the hands of someone
responsible!

Consider this act "comsic Hessed" AISI Aryeh did the job that the other
guy neglected to do. So HKBH made Aryeh the "go to guy"

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Ben Waxman wrote:
> I never heard the story but from the quote you gave all the CS is saying 
> is that my community uses such a mikveh, this is a community of Torah 
> learners, and since this is our minhag, it must be kosher. But not that 
> "I am a tzaddik (or my father was a tzaddik) and therefore the mikvah 
> must be kosher.

No, that is not at all what the Ksav Sofer was saying.  That would not
have stopped the DC's campaign against the mikveh.  After all, he already
knew that the KS had endorsed it, and that didn't stop him.  It was only
when the KS informed him that he had personally been born from such a
mikveh, i.e. his mother had used one built to the same design, that the
DC called off his campaign.  He was not prepared to publicly call the
CS a boel nidah, and the KS a ben-hanidah.

 
> I have no doubt that the Beit Yosef would indeed say that the Rema ate 
> treif if the Rema ate non-glatt meat.

I don't know.  *Did* the Ramo ever eat non-glatt meat? 


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

 

From: Zev Sero _zev@sero.name_ (mailto:z...@sero.name) 



>> What does  the story have to
do with minhag yisrael?  The point of the story is  that the Divrei Chaim
was unwilling to call the Chasam Sofer a boel  nidah.<<

-- 
Zev  Sero                      

 
>>>>>
 
IIANM, the point of the story was that the Divrei Chaim was unwilling to  
call the Chasam Sofer's /father/ a bo'el nidah.  {"I am the product of such  
a mikva.")
 
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

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I hear your point, but I did just realize something. Rav Salant died 100 
years ago. The beit din could easily say that for him, it was fine. Anyone 
today who eats the duck is eating treif. Just like 100 years ago people, 
including rabbanim, ate things that no one today would dream of eating, so 
too with the duck.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name>

No, that is not at all what the Ksav Sofer was saying.  That would not
have stopped the DC's campaign against the mikveh.  After all, he already
knew that the KS had endorsed it, and that didn't stop him.  It was only
when the KS informed him that he had personally been born from such a
mikveh, i.e. his mother had used one built to the same design, that the
DC called off his campaign.  He was not prepared to publicly call the
CS a boel nidah, and the KS a ben-hanidah. 

T6...@aol.com wrote:

> I don't think either of those two is quite what I was trying to remember 
> but there's a clue in that zemer, ?savanu vehosarnu kidvar Hashem.?   
>  
> "Kidvar Hashem."  What dvar Hashem is the song alluding to?

Here's another clue: "...uma shehotarnu yihyeh livracha, kedichtiv,
'vayiten lifneihem vayochlu vayotiru kidvar Hashem'".

Searching for that pasuk comes up with Melachim II 4:44.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 9:28 PM, <T6...@aol.com> wrote:

>
>
> off-list exchange:
>
>  **
>
>
>
> >>This is a common minhag -- to always leave a little something on the
> plate,
>
> >> never eat the last crumb.  Is it a chassidishe minhag?  I don't  know.
> I
>
> >>grew up with it.   It's based on a pasuk somewhere  that I can't quite
>
> >>retrieve from my memory box -- something about thanking  Hashem because
> you have
>
> >> enough food to be satisfied and even have food left  over. [--TK]
>
>
>
> *>> Might that be ve?achalta, vesavata you are thinking of?*
>
> *Or maybe ?savanu vehosarnu kidvar Hashem?? <<*
>
>
>
>
> >>>>>
> I don't think either of those two is quite what I was trying to remember
> but there's a clue in that zemer, ?savanu vehosarnu kidvar Hashem.?
>
> "Kidvar Hashem."  What dvar Hashem is the song alluding to?
>


The zemer is alluding to 2 Kings 4:44
http://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09b04.htm#44, but I think the minhag not to
eat the last crumb is based on the principle "ein beracha sheruya al makom
reikan". I don't remember the exact reference, but AFAIR the Zohar learns
this from the way the lehem hapanim was replaced so that the shulhan was
never left empty, and Elisha's question at the beginning of the same chapter
"Ma yesh lach babayit?"
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On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 09:43:19PM -0800, martin brody wrote:
:> ."As one Senior Kashrus Adminsitrator explained to me, any ingredient
:> -consciously placed there for its taste -can never be bateil.
:> RRW"
: 
:  That would only be true if the offending "treif" ingredient can be
: identified. If it was mixed in with other "tastes" that were kosher and it
: is less than 1/60th it would be batel. Hence natural flavours, w/o one
: significant flavour, is not a problem....

Why would a company intentionally put in a natural flavor that didn't make a
difference in the taste of the product? Or, as RRW put it, we're talking
about "any ingredient -- consciously placed there for its taste". Seems
like a waste of money to add a taste that is impossible to notice.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

T6...@aol.com wrote:
>  
> Citing a DE'ORAISAH as being a fence doesn't make sense.
But where did the Rabbis learn to make fences? See Biur HaGra on Avos 
1:1 s.v. "va'asu siyag laTorah", the sources he cites (ADRN ed. Shechter 
version 1 at the beginning of chapter 2, and BMR Naso 10:8), and the 
sources they cite (Aharei Mos 18:19 and 18:6 and Naso 6:3).

David Riceman

Ben Waxman wrote:
> I hear your point, but I did just realize something. Rav Salant died 100 
> years ago. The beit din could easily say that for him, it was fine. 
> Anyone today who eats the duck is eating treif. Just like 100 years ago 
> people, including rabbanim, ate things that no one today would dream of 
> eating, so too with the duck.

Without a Sanhedrin, how could the halacha have changed?  Either it was
always treif, or it's now kosher.  They can refuse to let it be shechted
or sold under their supervision; they can express their opinion that the
poskim who forbade it seem to be more correct than those who permitted
it; but it's a very bold move to pasken that it's actually treif.  That
doesn't mean they can't do so, just that they need to be aware of what
they're saying.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher


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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 27
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