Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 260

Wed, 23 Dec 2009

• 1. Soft Flour Tortilla / Wrap (Tal Moshe Zwecker)
• 2. Re: Soft Flour Tortilla / Wrap (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Soft Flour Tortilla / Wrap (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: How to light the Menorah (Alan Rubin)
• 5. Re: Driving Without a Licence (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 6. Re: Driving Without a Licence (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 7. pidyon shvuyim (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 8. Assur to be Stupid... (Richard Wolberg)
• 9. how to reconcile (Tal Moshe Zwecker)
• 10. Re: pidyon shvuyim (Harry Maryles)
• 11. Re: Kashrus and Shabbas (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Nekudas haBechirah (by RDK) (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: pidyon shvuyim (Ben Waxman)
• 14. Re: Assur to be Stupid... (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 15. Re: anarchy/libertarianism (David Riceman)

For a Soft Flour Tortilla / Wrap
What Bracha would you say HaMotzi or Mezenos and why?

Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
Director Machon Be'er Mayim Chaim
www.chassidusonline.com 
chassidusonl...@gmail.com 
Phone: 972-2-992-1218 / Cell: 972-54-842-4725
VoIP: 516-320-6022
eFax: 1-832-213-3135
join the mailing list to keep updated about new projects here: 
http://groups.google.com/group/beermayimchaim 

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 08:42:31PM +0200, Tal Moshe Zwecker wrote:
: For a Soft Flour Tortilla / Wrap
: What Bracha would you say HaMotzi or Mezenos and why?

For the theory:
See SA OC 168:8 just to see what it isn't, and to see why 8's discussion
of belilah rakah doesn't apply, see se'if 15, the MA 40, the MB s"q
88-89 and the Bi'ur Halakhah d"h "qemach".

It would seem that a wrap that has a texture such that it could be eaten
on its own would be hamotzi. Note that's only about having a texture
soft enough for the wrap to qualify as terisah, nothing about whether
it's so bland few would eat it that way.

Wraps are baked like the MB s"q 88, "de'i lo yahah belilasah rakah
k"k... kol shebasof asuyah betanor" is a hamotzi. Similarly in 89,
citing the Rosh: "kivan she'ofin oso beguma umeqabeitz ha'isah yachdav"
produces bread, hamotzi.

The above is from a vague memory of a Torah Ladaas article (published and
usually written by R' Matis Blum), bolstered by the Bar Ilan Responsa
web site. (Access paid for by giving money to an institution we have
yet to establish I was allowed to give money to to get access to BI via
their library's account.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 02:08:48PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote:
: On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 08:42:31PM +0200, Tal Moshe Zwecker wrote:
:: For a Soft Flour Tortilla / Wrap
:: What Bracha would you say HaMotzi or Mezenos and why?

: For the theory:
...
: Wraps are baked like the MB s"q 88... hamotzi.
...

RRW noted that I glossed over something that might not have been
obvious. I'm assuming that a "flour totilla" is by definition wheat,
not corn.

Real corn tortillas are made of pure mara harina flour, which is corn
flour treated with calcium hydroxide (try not to think of it as "lime")
which adds niacin, but more importantly, makes the corn more digestable.
The only other standard ingredient is water; some people cheat and use
baking soda. It's arguably shehakol, unless some store-brand alleged
"corn tortilla" uses a corn-wheat mix...


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Rabbi Wolpoe

>AIUI we were focused upon that "gray area" when using an oil shamash
>making it impractical to use to light the other neros.

And perhaps, if the minhag of using the shamash to light the other neros
does exist one davka should use a candle and not an oil lamp for the
shamash. Is there any hiddur in using oil for the shamash?

Alan Rubin

RDE: 
> Rav Sternbuch (1:850) Question: A Jewish driver who normal speeds or
> doesn't have a license -- is it permitted to report him to the police?

FWIW 
Several years ago I witnessed a prominent member of my local community
driving his SUV while chatting on the cellphone. W/O naming names I
asked a rabbi if I should give this person mussar? [Hinting that really
HE should give him mussar ;-)]

The rav said "NO!" 

[I think he was concerned that I would not be heeded]

Frankly, I was more concerned for Hillul Hashem than for safety.

At any rate I personally concur with RDE that we need to make public
safety paramount [though I myself confess that I'm not a perfect
driver either]

KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Whether truthfully or not, a certain person was quoted as saying:

>  Without a license, one doesn't know how to drive.

R' Zev Sero commented:
> That statement is an obvious falsehood, no matter who is alleged
> to have said it.  It is inconceivable that any intelligent person
> could honestly say such a thing.  That is one reason why I
> doubt the whole story.

You're confusing falsehood with rhetoric. What the person meant was, "Without a license, one hasn't proven that he knows how to drive."

Very similar idea, but expressed more forcefully. We have this kind of
rhetoric all the time. I don't like such exaggerations, but with practice
I've tried to learn how to translate it.

Akiva Miller

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r matisyahu salomon was asked the following  last  week----

I  chose to ask him about issues of financial impropriety in the Frum 
community. I asked him about Pidyon Shevuyim and if there is a mitzvah of 
pidyon shevuyim for frum criminals .... First he told me that for someone 
who is truly a criminal there would be no inyan of pidyon shevuyim but we 
have to be very quick not to judge. I then asked about a case where they 
were found guilty by a court (mr x) to which he responded that ?being 
found guilty by a court does not mean anything? but we have to know for a 
fact that they are guilty. He then said that if we know that they are 
guilty there is no mitzvah of pidyon shevuyim. someone asked if people 
come out right away and call it anti Semitism is this a chilul hashem. He 
said that it a dangerous thing to do. Goyim also claim anti Semitism. I 
then asked what if we see people being taken away in handcuffs on the news 
is this still not a chillul hashem if we do not have the facts to which he 
said that we have to be very careful not to jump to conclusions and we 
need to know who is creating the chilul hashem is it the guy getting 
arrested or the person arresting him. 


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R' Micha wrote:
I understood RYBS as stating that there
is an implied prohibition against not using 
the intelligence G-d gave you.

That's fine and nice but who is to determine how much or
what is the quality of the intelligence that G-d gave you? 
AND our perception of the bowing is quite different from the
Japanese perception. Intelligence is both subjective and 
objective. People's intelligence can vary quite significantly, 
as do different cultures,so to be judgmental and say that someone
else's culture is stupid may also be considered stupid. The following 
may shed some light on this example:  "The etiquette of bowing demonstrates 
the courtesy of and respect for Judo, Judo Sensei's and other judoka. 
Bowing in Judo equals to the American handshake and has nothing to 
do with any religious practice." 

Obviously, it is against our halacha, but to call someone stupid who is
unaware of the halacha is somewhat condescending.  That is why I make
the distinction between "stupid" and "ignorant." A person unaware of halacha 
is "ignorant." 
Also, you can have two people aware of halacha but interpret it differently. Does 
that mean if someone who interprets it differently from you is "stupid" or "ignorant?"
ri


 



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Working on Kedushas Levi, How can we reconcile the following Dvar Torah 
with Rashi's commentary and Midrash Rabbah 89:3 on verse Bereshis 40:23?

Kedushas Levi says:
"And Yosef's master took him and placed him in jail.  . .And he remained there in prison." (39:20)


This is seemingly superfluous. It seems to me that when the Holy One sends
someone an incident that is heaven forbidden, not good or not positive,
then he should desist from any physical reaction and rather he should
simply trust and have faith in Hashem, and surely it will be transformed
into something good and positive. This was the attribute practiced by
Nachum Ish Gamzu who would always say "Gam Zu LeTovah - This too is for the
best," (Taanis 21a). This is what is hinted to by the verse "he remained
there in prison," even though he could have done something about it so that
he would not have remained there in prison, he did not act, he trusted in
Hashem that surely everything would be for the best.


Kol Tuv,
R' Tal Moshe Zwecker
Director Machon Be'er Mayim Chaim
www.chassidusonline.com
chassidusonl...@gmail.com
Phone: 972-2-992-1218 / Cell: 972-54-842-4725
VoIP: 516-320-6022
eFax: 1-832-213-3135
join the mailing list to keep updated about new projects here: 
http://groups.google.com/group/beermayimchaim 
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I would have asked him the following. 
?
What if you know??a Jew?is guilty of a serious crime?and you have evidence
of it. The man is on trial but without your testimony he will like get away
with the crime. What do we do then? Do we stay quiet? Or do we volunteer
our testimony?
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:


From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org>
Subject: [Avodah] pidyon shvuyim
To: avo...@aishdas.org
Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 5:02 PM



r matisyahu salomon was asked the following ?last ?week---- 

I ?chose to ask him about issues of financial impropriety in the Frum
community. I asked him about Pidyon Shevuyim and if there is a mitzvah of
pidyon shevuyim for frum criminals .... First he told me that for someone
who is truly a criminal there would be no inyan of pidyon shevuyim but we
have to be very quick not to judge. I then asked about a case where they
were found guilty by a court (mr x) to which he responded that ?being found
guilty by a court does not mean anything? but we have to know for a fact
that they are guilty. He then said that if we know that they are guilty
there is no mitzvah of pidyon shevuyim. someone asked if people come out
right away and call it anti Semitism is this a chilul hashem. He said that
it a dangerous thing to do. Goyim also claim anti Semitism. I then asked
what if we see people being taken away in handcuffs on the news is this
still not a chillul hashem if we do not have the facts to which he said
that we have
 to be very careful not to jump to conclusions and we need to know who is
 creating the chilul hashem is it the guy getting arrested or the person
 arresting him. 



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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Rn Chana 
> and since a safek d'orisa is a d'rabbanan,

This itself is a machlokes rishonim... 

> It is in true Rav 
> Ovadiah style.

> He does note that various modern poskim (Tzitz 
> Eliezer, Rav Moshe) disagree with him regarding cooking on a shabbas 
> platter, but he feels they are creating new gezeras, and that we cannot do 
> this.

I wonder how many times ROY says that "they are creating new gezeras,
and that we cannot do this."?

It seems common if not ubiquitous! 

First of all who says applying an existing g'zeira to a new situation is
ipso facto a "new" g'zeira? It seems even ROY understands shema yachta
to extend to electric controls!

Second of all, who says g'zeiros cannot be introduced? Afaik Any S'yag
can be added on -- especially if somewhere down the chain a d'oraisso
is protected EG: as in Bishul or Hav'ara on shabbos.

[EG See AhS YD siman 90 re: k'chal] 

Caveat: A gzeira to fence a d'rabbanan only would indeed be different:
EG eruvin, Hanukkah, n'tilas yadayim.

KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

This is from a former chavrusah, but still chaver. There is no URL yet,
so I'm posting in full.

The topic is the nequdas habechirah, temptation, addiction, and what I
would call the need for perishus. If the temptation isn't at my
nequdas habekhirah, so that I'm likely to fail, deciding to avoid the
situation still is.

-micha



Taking a Closer Look (Rabbi Dov Kramer)

"And you will also take this one from before me and a [deadly]
accident will happen to him, and you will bring my gray hairs down,
with wickedness, to the grave." This is how Yehudah described the
conversation when Yaakov was resistant to letting his youngest son,
Binyamin, accompany his ten older brothers down to Egypt (Beraishis
44:29). Yet, just two verses later (44:31), when Yehudah describes what
will happen if they return home without Binyamin, he says, "and it will
be when he sees that the lad is not [with us], and he will die, and your
servants will bring the gray hairs of your servant our father down,
with sorrow, to the grave." Why did Yehudah change the wording from
"with wickedness" to "with sorrow"?

I have previously written about Rav Eliyahu Dessler's concept of
"nekudas habechira," literally "the point at which free will operates"
(see www.aishdas.org/ta/5768/yomKippur.pdf). "Free will" refers
to our ability to make choices, and, from a religious perspective,
having the ability to choose between "right" and "wrong" (or "truth"
and "falsehood," see Michtav Me'Eliyahu I, pgs. 113-116). An addict
may not be able to "choose" not to feed his addiction, and someone who
keeps kosher meticulously may not even consider eating a cheeseburger,
so doesn't have to "choose" not to. They will have other internal "right
vs. wrong" battles, but these aren't among them.

In the case of the addict, the battle will not be whether or not to smoke
the cigarette in his pocket or whether or not to take a drink in a bar,
but whether or not to carry the cigarettes around, or whether or not to
enter the bar (and/or whether or not to get treatment). The battle is
waged where there is still a possibility of winning and losing, not when
already in a situation where winning is next to impossible. Choosing to
avoid situations that are difficult to overcome (or that present battles
we might not win) is the key, and whether or not we avoid them is the
primary battleground of "free will."

When Yaakov was talking to his sons about the possibility of sending
Binyamin down to Egypt with them (putting him in a dangerous situation),
the word used to describe the result was "wickedness," as making a
poor decision that allows for bad consequences is where the "evil"
lies. However, when Yehudah tells Yosef what will happen if Binyamin
does not return home, he uses the word "sorrow" because by that point,
although it is unfortunate that what they had feared would happen indeed
happened, the "evil" aspect had already occurred, i.e. making the decision
that allowed it to happen.

This discussion came up (in a different context) at work recently,
regarding an athlete who made headlines not (just) in the sports section,
but also on the front page. Temptation can be very hard to resist,
and my co-workers agreed that in order to maintain a strong marriage,
they have to avoid situations where temptations may arise.

Unfortunately, our community is not immune from these types of
headlines. As individuals, and as a community, we must be diligent in
avoiding situations that allow weaknesses to manifest themselves. If
someone loves children in a way other than just wanting to help
educate them, they shouldn't be in education (no matter how talented
an educator they are). The "evil" choice is not just giving in to
temptation, or being in a situation where it becomes possible to give in
to temptation (because it's too easy to be tempted to put oneself into
such a situation). A different vocation must be found. And the onus isn't
only on the individual to be strong enough to remove him or herself from
the picture. Every school should have a zero tolerance policy regarding
teacher/student relationships, and every organization should have a zero
tolerance policy for their staff members as well. If no student is ever
allowed to be alone with a teacher (no closed doors, no unsupervised
private tutoring), they can never be victimized -- neither the student,
nor the teacher (through false accusations). If a Rav never locks
the door of his office when he's inside, if he always makes sure that
there's someone else to vouch for his not being alone with a congregant
(whether by having a glass door or by having that person knock and enter
at regular intervals), he can't be accused of doing anything untoward,
and the congregant will not be in danger of being taken advantage of. It
is up to the community to insist that these procedures be put in place
in order to protect all involved.

This idea is not limited to these types of situations either. Any
individual that is ever tempted to put the funds of others to personal
use should not choose a profession where he is entrusted with public or
private funds. Anybody who is entrusted with the funds of others needs to
provide absolute transparency (as Moshe did when he gave a full accounting
of the materials collected for the Mishkan even before it was completed),
and we, as a community, must insist on that transparency.

By switching from the word "wickedness" when discussing the
decision-making process to the word "sorrow" when discussing the possible
result of that process, Yehudah was teaching us where the main battle
between "good" and "evil" is -- not when we are faced with temptation,
as by then it may be too late, but when we have the chance to avoid
being tempted in the first place.

Then what does mean something?

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org 
  To: avo...@aishdas.org 
   I then asked about a case where they were found guilty by a court (mr x)
   to which he responded that "being found guilty by a court does not mean
   anything" but we have to know for a fact that they are guilty. 
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I remember seeing an article or hearing a tape of RYBS in which he 
stated that the Jews sacrificed their minds on the altar of Sinai.

He was saying that there is now a limit to the range of thought and 
questions that can be asked because the reality of the Torah at Sinai is 
now an unquestionable reality. Therefore for those who don't accept the 
Torah, intellectual discourse is much different than for those who do.

Micha Berger wrote:
> In general, the Rambam places yedi'ah on a pedestal much higher than most
> of us would. If you don't think that a philosopher is one step below a
> navi, then I don't know if you can invoke further implications of that
> hashkafah to prove your point.
>   
  The nature of prophecy is really not closely related to the Rambam's 
point in the PHM, in spite of the polemical drasha there.
> I think most of us today put a person's ehrlachkeit and deveiqus on a
> more central pedestal than intellectual comprehension.
>   
Throughout Jewish literature, from the Bible to aharonei aharonim, you 
find warnings that piety which exceeds understanding is dangerous 
(though, I should add, you also find warnings about the contrary).  
Tangentially, I don't understand how polling produces evidence (and the 
Rambam explicitly rejects determining one's opinions through polling).
> AishDas's [borrowed] motto, which is just my own understanding of Dr
> Nathan Birnbaum's motto for haOlim, is "Daas Rachamim Tif'eres". (See
> RYGB's JO (?} article at <http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/birnbaum.htm>.)
> Daas in this context is being used in a very different way than the
> Rambam's philosophical understanding of what Hashem isn't. To DNB, daas is
> knowing G-d, not knowing /about/ G-d, that which includes hislahavus and
> hachna'ah.
See the discussion of the phrase "hesed mishpat utzedakah" in MN III:54 
(the final chapter).
>  
David Riceman


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